Ducati Monster Forum

Disclaimer: I may not be the most mechanical individual, but I do know the basics of jump starting a car. I have done it many times prior to this weekend with 100% success.....jumping a car isn't rocket science.

So my wife calls me Wednesday while she is at work stating the car would not start, made a clicking noise when turned on.

ok, battery issue.

I have her find the local security guy at her work to give her a jump start. Car starts she comes home. The security guy used one of those starter units; not his SUV.

So the next morning.......car won't start. Ok, fine, needs a new battery. I'll jump it after work and get a new one at sears (140$ for a TDI battery).

I couldn't get this god damn thing started for the life of me. I used two sets of cables (thinking one of them was faulty). No luck.

Used two different cars, thinking there was an issue..........still no luck.


I am thinking what the make the beast with two backs is going on, maybe the battery isn't the issue. make the beast with two backs.

Call AAA, they come out saturday with their Battery Tech, runs his tests, battery is only cold cranking 300.....not good.

He gets out his starter unit.........make the beast with two backser starts right up. I am mesmerized at this point.

He sells me a battery, installs it, I pay him 149$ total........and I have a running car.


So why wouldn't it jump off another vehicle?

Cheap shitty cables they sell now don't carry much current.

Get yourself some single or double 0 copper cable and some quality clamps and make your own.

I was using a nice pair of copper cables.

I thought the original problem might have been the cables as the first ones I used were crap.

So I switched over to mine after I found them.

They are very good quality and have been used numerous time before.

I jumped my wife's jetta and it cooked the computer onboard. My mechanic told me that the VWs need a full charge to kick over, which is why charger boxes work but cables don't. He said that IF I were to jump a jetta, I should leave the cables on for 45 minutes.

We fixed and then sold the Jetta for a toyota.

^

That is interesting.

Like hell I would let my car run for 45mins just to jump it!


When changing the battery, you have to keep the positive on a charger so it doesn't erase the code on the stereo.

Probably the battery in your other car wasn't up to the task of jumpstarting the VW with only 300 cranking amps, even though its starts your other car just fine. Its tough with a battery that worn out.

it probably has a lot to do with the diesel system.
im not an expert on the subject by any means, but i would imagine that the glow plug requires a pretty good amount of juice, and that whatever is actually cranking the motor (starter) is going to need alot of power to get something with around an 18:1 compression ratio to crank enough to create combustion simply off of compression.
not an easy task...

The first car I tried to jump off was a BMW X5; couldn't find the negative terminal under the hood and my neighbor had to leave, so we said make the beast with two backs it.

Moved to his roommates M3 (battery in trunk) and it wouldn't jump off that. He said that battery was less than a year old.

Tried to jump it off my Lexus RX300, new battery in December; not a chance it would start.


That's what I was thinking........just not enough juice.

However, I spoke with Ducatize and he claims it shouldn't matter. I am no expert in this area, so I haven't a clue.


It's just annoying to know that your car, if needing jumping, won't start off another car...........

any clue why the battery died?

Bought the car new in May 2004..........

I think a little over 5 years on a OEM factory battery is pretty good


When AAA came out, they did a diagnostic test and my alternator was fine

Just so that it's clear, my mechanic didn't want me to leave the cables on for 45 mins - he was suggesting not to jump a jetta w/ cables. We have AAA, so he suggested we use that if we needed it.

So does BMW put the battery in the trunk straight out of the factory or whas this a spare power source for a sound system?  Forgive me for asking the dumbest question of all, but the cars you were trying to jump from WERE running right? 

Other than that I'm sure corey is right in the diesel theory.  Those glow plugs are no joke when it comes to power consumption.  It's either that or those crazy Germans just forgot whether the + meant ground or hot.

Straight out of the factory on this M3, maybe a 2002 or something.

It sits in a compartment on the right side of the trunk.


My dad's old 91 audio quattro had the battery under the back seat

Fahrvergnügen.

Sorta.


I did use a Ducati to jump start a TDI once. Took a while to get enough charge in that thar diesel, but it worked.

The Jetta will never know the difference between  a battery or a starter unit (which, if portable, contain batteries).  Cory's statement that it takes more amps to start a diesel is correct.  Anyone remember the Oldsmobile/Cadillac diesels that had two batteries and still did not want to crank well in the cold?

Dodge's diesel trucks have all had a dual battery setup. Such fun putting out for two 850CCA batteries every 4-5 years.

So is there anyway I can jump it with a car?

having a vehicle that can't be readily jumped by my other blows.

That's why we sold our Jetta.

Battery is installed in the trunk for weight distribution.  If i remember correctly, the M3 has a 51/49 weight distribution front to rear.

Yeah, but you a bit different situation with the computer getting fried.

Just curious...


how did you have the batteries connected during the jump?

I've always done 2 on the good, pos on the bad and the other grounded to the frame

Grounding to the frame helps you from frying the electrical, but doesn't give you as good of a jump. (From what I have been told.)

What usually fries an electronic component in a car (any car, including a Toyota) when jump starting is a voltage spike from connecting or disconnecting with the key and component on or the vehicle running.

Most of the time your Jetta will start fine with a boost from a car.  The combination of a stone dead battery and other factors was probably just a little too wrong.  Chances are, if you let the other car run for a while it would have started.  Like Mr. Incredible said, in his case, his little Ducati battery started a TDI.


You want to hook up and disconnect the ground on the dead car last away from the battery to avoid sparks and the possible battery explosion.  Hydrogen and sparks make boom!  A good ground is a good ground.

Do yourself a favor.  Invest $80 in a starter pack, compressor emergency light.  Cant tell you how handy it is to have around.  It will recharge off a cigarette lighter plug or household.

We had it grounded but the jump didn't work. We never got the car started, so I don't think it was a voltage spike turning it off.

I let my lexus run for 5 minutes connected to the dead battery.

After the diagnostic, the old battery was only kicking out 300 cold crank amps or whatever that is called. The car requires a minimum of 700 per the battery required. Therefore, sounds like the contributing factors led to it not jumping.


That's a good idea.

I'll pick one up this weekend  [thumbsup]

Bull.

I've been working on vw's for 6 years now (actually certified as a VW electrical expert), I've jumped MANY cars, using other cars, jumper boxes, all that.

the ONLY time I've ever seen a ECU fry was due to some moron tow truck guy jumping the car backwards.. you ALWAYS know when this happens because the fuse in the back of the radio pops.

the only other way ECU's fry is on the old digi systems if the ground from the starter is bad it will toast the injector circuit in the ecu and the injectors stay on..

Now, Vehicles with immobilizer are very senstive to voltage lower then 10v. the immobilizer pickup will not work at this low power level, which will keep the vehicle from starting, particularly on a tdi.

Cyrus. your vehicle being a 04 stores the radio code and all radio presets in the instrument cluster's gateway (address 19) in non-volatile memory. you can disconnect all voltage to the radio and when power is restored your radio will say "safe" for about 5 seconds then beep and go right back where you had it.

the only things you'll have to reset are the window auto up and down, and the clock.

based on what I'm reading your vehicle's battery had a dead cell, and was only making ~10.5v, plus it sounds like your jumper cables sucked. Its almost impossible to get good cables any more (unless you get them off a tool truck.)

You are correct, I'd have to go look at the diagnostic, but I believe it was only making 10.5v.


My jumper cables do not suck. They are a quality pair I have had for about 6 years.

I was just giving you crap about the cables.

in all reality the connection at one of the terminals was probably not that good.

If you have a set of cables and a DVOM, next time you can check a volt drop across the cables to see if they have any resistance.

FWIW, my procedure to jump start a dead car.
*if using an other vehicle, make sure its started, running and all consumers are off (ie head lights, radio, all that stuff)

1 make sure key is Off, and in my pocket (I've had cars decide to lock when I connected power, key locked inside =suckage)

2 connect positive to positive terminal.

3 connect negative to negative terminal. I almost never use any other ground unless I have to (like old audi's and twatregs where the battery is under the seat) I've never quite understood why some people say to ground some where else. if there happens to be a voltage spike (good vehicles alt spikes when it sees increased load) the battery, even when dead acts like a sponge, so it will "soak up" the extra shock.

4 ensure all the consumers are off in the vehicle that needs to be jumped.

go ahead and start it.

Now good cables can go bad. They've got thicker wires in them, which don't like to be bent back and forth too often, can break, and can cause a higher resistance. you can allways check them by placing a load across them and checking the voltage drop..

jump boxes.. be careful which ones you get. the sams club, pep boy specials are trash. the've got lights and compresssors and radios and all kinds of junk on them, they don't seem to last very long. in a year and a half you'll be throwing it out.
buy a good one, http://www.cloreautomotive.com/site_cat.asp?family_pk=11&br_pk=37&category_pk=70 (http://www.cloreautomotive.com/site_cat.asp?family_pk=11&br_pk=37&category_pk=70)

I've got the 660, (1700peak amps) works great. I've had it for probably 5 years now, daily abuse, still works great.

[laugh] tell me how you really feel...

Good info Acalles.  Thanks.

+1

Thank you

its a term of enderment, really  [laugh]


no prob. I've gotten a ton of great moto info from this place, so I help out when I can. [thumbsup]

Ive had my $80 Costco jumper box/compressor/safety light for about 5 years now.  Its come through for myself and many a neighbor on many occasions. 

Im sure if I had to use it daily, my opinion would be different.  After abusing the hell out of it, I still give it [thumbsup]  [thumbsup].

I have had 2 battery jumpers. Both have taken a shit in a year or so. I can't count on them to work when they need to...

Living in Soldotna Alaska, driving a 00 NB TDI. I am very familiar with diesels and sub-zero weather.

What I finally did was run a three way under the hood with plug sticking out of the grill. It powers a 200 watt oil pan heater and a 2 amp battery tender. Leave it plugged in all nite, doesn't matter how cold it gets. Between warm oil and a fully charged battery starts every time. Sounds like $hit for a few minutes when its -40* but it starts, eventually all 4 cylinders join the party.

Definetly run a full synthentic oil, I run Delvac 1 10w40 10 months of the year and switch to Mobil 1 0w30 when the mercury heads into the make the beast with two backsing cold zone.

^

holy shit, that is some cold weather!


I wanted to get an engine block heater for my 2004 VW, but apparently they don't make one?

The dealer told me they stopped making them in 2003 because the new starting mechanism doesn't require it in the winter.


I haven't looked for an aftermarket one, though.


But yeah.......when it was -15 here this past winter..........mr jetta HATED me after he was started for a few minutes.

Then it takes the heater another 20 minutes to warm up..........

yours is a PD, they actually start up pretty well. but if it doesn't run well after its started, the first thing I would replace is the valve that's ontop of the fuel filter. Its function is to keep the fuel cirulating threw the filter when its cold. P/N 1J0 127 247 A. about $35.  Although I don't have too much experiance with things getting THAT cold.

you may wanna try using a drop light with a 80 watt or so bulb to try and warm things up a bit on really cold days. I'd say plug it in a hour or so before you plan on leaving. might get it warm enough to help it run smoothly and help get the heater going.

theres also a fuel additive you can try that works pretty well in the cold called "stanadyne winter" I've never used it but I've heard good things from a buddy that lives in Maine.

Google " Kerma TDI " . I believe they have block heaters.
 It's on my to do list, when I change the timing belt at 160k, got to drain the coolant anyway perfect time.
Got one of the 200w red silicone pad heaters at NAPA, glued it on to the oil pan with red high temp silicone.

Another thing to look at while your on Kerma's website is the aluminium skid plate, replaces the cheesy plastic one, and 1/4 plate aluminium is bullet proof.

-15^o is really cold for any car, gas or diesel.  Garrison Keeler has many stories about this on Prairie Home Companion.
http://find.publicradio.org/search?site=phc&client=phc&proxystylesheet=phc&filter=p&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&q=car+cold&x=6&y=8 (http://find.publicradio.org/search?site=phc&client=phc&proxystylesheet=phc&filter=p&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&q=car+cold&x=6&y=8)