Monster 620 2003 ECU Problem - Help needed

[musbos]

Hi ALL ;

I read every single post here that includes "ECU" in it and still need soem clarifications on this to fix my problem ((

1. My bike doesnot start and  mechanic tells I need a new ECU ))) (as howie stated in one topic  -  All to often "you need a new ECU"  translates to "I don't know what is wrong with your vehicle so it must be the ECU"- )

2. Supposing my ECU is faulty, is it possible to replace the faulty with a used one from another monster 620 ?? Bike is Monster 620 2003. I dont wanna pay 1254 Eu.

3. In some topics it is stated that ECUs are usually paired with gauges and keys for imobilizer fonction. So isnt it possible to disable the imobilizer function of an used ECU from another monster 620 and replace it with my faulty one??. I accept my bike would not have imobilizer function.

4. If this is electronich i think there should be some equivalent ECUs (probably Made in China ))  Isnt it possible to find some cheap chips or modules that has the same function with my faulty ECU. Is ECU reflashing smth appicable to mine ??


5. When i put the red key to start the bike, whe orange imobilizer LED flashes 3 times and shuts then, does that mean smth wriong?

I really appreciate if someone could help on this ...

[2001cromo]

I'll try and answer your questions as you've listed them below.

1) The whole "you need a new ECU" theory is a test that can only be confirmed with another "virgin non paired" ECU or another ECU/key/gauge set from another similar bike. This could/would confirm if your original ECU was the source of the problem.

2) Since most ECU's are paired/married to the rest of the system (keys/ECU/gauges) then you can't just swap ECU's, you'd have to swap all 3 components of the immobilizer from a same/similar type/size bike.

3) you can't just disable the immobilizer. Some say you can "reflash them" but in my personal experience using others "alleged flashing process" this has only destroyed ECU's and resulted in a non working bike.

4) There are a few other companies that made/make ECU's that will work. Nemisis is the most likely, but it's not cheap.

5) Yes, the 3 LED flashes mean something, but I dont' remember off the top of my head. It's in the manual though.

Sorry for your troubles and good luck with it.

[Bladecutter]

Did you check to make sure that all the fuses on the bike are good?
Do you have the code card that should have come with your keys when you bought the bike?
If yes, then you should try the following procedure:

Procedure to disable immobilizer engine block through throttle twistgrip

1) Turn the key to ON and fully open throttle. Keep it open. The EOBD warning light turns off after 8 seconds.

2) Release the throttle as soon as the EOBD warning light turns off.

3) EOBD pilot light will flash. Count a number of flashes corresponding to the first figure of the code, open full
throttle and keep the position for 2 seconds, then release. In this way the input of one figure is
acknowledged, EOBD pilot light comes on and stays on for 4 seconds. Carry out the same procedure for the
following figures of the code. Failure to do so will cause the EOBD pilot light to flash 20 times, then it will stay on.
This means that the procedure has been aborted. It will be necessary to turn the key to OFF and restart from point (1).

4) Repeat operations described in point (3) up to the last figure of the code.

5) Release the throttle twistgrip, if the code is correct, the EOBD warning light shall flash signalling that engine block has been disabled. The warning light turns off after 4 seconds.
If the code is NOT correct, the EOBD warning light stays on and it is then possible to turn the key to OFF and repeat the procedure, starting from point (1), as many times as necessary (infinite).

BC.

[musbos]

Hi all...
that means i have to buy a new ECU(virgin one ) )...
Could you suggest me where i could buy Nemesis ECU for monster 620 2003 singli disk, any website?
and definately ill force tech service to proove and diagnose root cause of the fault and let all you know it!!!

thanks for you help .

[Slide Panda]

I'm not sure they make on to fit a 620. 

Google 'nemesis ecu' and you'll get listing right away.  My quick scan showed $1,400 - 944 Eu for the ECU only.  Then you've got to get it installed and working... Given that they may not make one for the 620.. that might be an expensive chore.

[Howie]

Before going any further, do you have all 3 keys, 2 black and one red?  Which key(s) are you using to start the bike?  Do you have the code card?  I think three flashes usually means the immobilizer doesn't recognize the key.  Your "ECU" problem could be due to a much less expensive problem like a bad key or a bad or poorly connected antennae.  Definitely try everything Bladecutter suggested.  If the bike starts with the code card the ECU is good.  If you do not have the red key you cannot program other keys, though existing keys can be cloned.  Replacing the antennae does not require reprogramming.

You didn't say (or I can't remember) where you live.  Somebody on the board might be able to direct you to a shop better able to deal with your problem.

[musbos]

Hi All ;

I have 1 RED key (the original one) and 2 black keys (reprogrammed using the RED one). but honestly i had a chance to reprogram black keys just after my bike broke down, do it never started by any of the black keys that  i was running it using the RED one.
Yesterday i tried to run it again with a tech guy,  connected a Ducati Diagnosis tool, clearing all the alarms, but again no start. What we see is there is no fire on spark plugs, so we unplug  both cables from plugs and put screwdrivers inside them try to start it again to see if there is a electrical jump and sure there was not:((.
Regarding to these symptoms tech guy told me that ECU is faulty and needs to be replaced (same old story), then i tried to run the bike with two of the black keys and red one, the difference was, using black keys do not cause imobilizer LED to flash when i turned the key ON or OFF but when i put RED key and turn it to ON same LED flashes 3 times (2 fast  flashes and a third one 1 second after the first 2). For all the keys EOBD light is OFF, is that mean keys are OK or thats smth fake??? . And how i came to this position is as follows, my bike did not run one night at 01AM (did not run from start button). So tech came and rescue by crossing two screws below ECU unit. It run we rode it to mechanic, they said it is an electrical issue and we again start it using same way and rode it to electrician. what happened was happened from that point, Electrician  directly connect the start button to one of the cables, once he told me bike is running but when he puts it in first gear it stops(which i never experienced), and now bike doesnot run either )))
I live in Turkey , Istanbul... we have two Authorised Ducati technical services here but none of them even understands  how a monster runs. I bought worshop manual for 620 and get some books from tech serv (repair manuals), but got nothing usefull to solve my problem. As an electronics engineer what i know is a compact ECU (chip) will not be fired if it is grounded  so i dont want to believe ECU is faulty but in the mean time i dont know how to diagnose the root cause off all these symptoms
thanks for your help guys
By the way i have all the tech serv document online if you have any FTP site i wanna share all these stuff..

[Howie]

The three bilnks with the red key and no blinks with the black keys does mean the key is not being recognized.  One would think this solves the problem, but it doesn't.  The reality is  knowledge about the immobilizer system is limited and, as .  Unfortunately, Chromo's statement "The whole "you need a new ECU" theory is a test that can only be confirmed with another "virgin non paired" ECU or another ECU/key/gauge set from another similar bike. This could/would confirm if your original ECU was the source of the problem" is true and may be the way to go, providing they don't charge you for the ECU if it doesn't fix the problem.   I'm confused as to why the bike starts when the mechanic did whatever he did.  Could you get more info on this?

[Langanobob]

I have an M620 but the ECU/immobilizer has always worked properly (so far) so I haven't learned much about it.  Have you disconnected and cleaned and tightened all the electrical connections including the antenna connections?  Did you try the throttle twist procedure suggested by Bladecutter? 

I worked in Turkey last year and the Turkish people were very kind and hospitable and I'd like somehow to return the favor but having no ECU experience I don't know what I can do.

It's a shot in the dark, but maybe these guys might be able to provide some help or insight:

http://www.ommriders.com

Also, ignitech has reverse engineered a Ducati ECU and they might also be able to provide some help, or know someone with ECU expertise in Turkey.  They are reasonably good at responding to emails.

http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

[musbos]

hi All ;

I get in contact with Ommridesr (which they dont have deep knowledge on Ducati Bikes) and Ignitech (waiting a repply to my email). Hope Ignitech may offer smth acceptable incase i need spare Virgin  ECU )
I also read the Repair Guide regarding to to Keys and ignition system and as Howie said there also might be some issues need to be investigated in deep here.

As repair guide states;

Operating principle of the immobilizer
When the ignition key is positioned to ON, the decoder into the instrument panel energises the antenna, which generates an electromagnetic field power-supplying the key transponder. The Transponder sends the code stored into its ROM, which is received by the antenna and sent to the decoder. Here the secret code is matched with a second code. If matching is successful, then the decoder sends a code to the engine control unit (CCM) via special serial line (ISO 9141/5). The engine control unit checks received code and enables engine start if code is correct.

Immobilizer warning lights and indications
Each time the key is turned from ON to OFF, engine is disabled by the immobilizer. When the ignition key is turned from OFF to ON, the system will signal the following:
- if code is acknowledged, the led (1) (small LED above the buttons on instrument panel) will turn on and then off;
- if code is not acknowledged, the led (1) and the EOBD light (2) for ignition-injection failure will turn on and stay on. Engine will not start. Repeat the above procedure but using a different black key.

As stated above i am a little bit confused because in myt case both LED and EOBD light are turning OFF , so should i still consider that i might have problemestic ignition system elements here.

Also the repair manual states as follows;

Checking for correct immobilizer programming
Insert the red key in the ignition switch. Turn to ON. The led (1) on the instrument panel will flash as follows. And then led (1) turns off.

First flashing indication:
- if the led flashes for two seconds, it means that the immobilizer is not programmed, maybe because the
Programming  procedure has not been strictly followed. Repeat the programming procedure from the start.
- if the led flashes for 0.7 seconds, it means that the immobilizer is correctly programmed

Second flashing indication:
- a series of short flashes indicates the number of programmed keys. If programming has been successfully completed, the led must flash three times (a red key and two black keys used for programming)

Third flashing indication (possible immobilizer system faults):
- the immobilizer is trouble-free if the led (1) is off
- a flash indicates a communication error between the decoder in the instrument panel and engine control unit via    serial line ISO 9141/ 5
- two flashes indicate a failure of the inserted key, the antenna on the ignition switch or both
- three flashes indicate that the inserted key has not been acknowledged by the system
- four flashes indicate that the engine control unit is programmed but the decoder in the instrument panel is not programmed

If one of the above cases under "third flashing indication" occurs, the engine cannot be started.

So I am confused on this. Since the procedure above tells nothing about black key insertion and behavior of the LEDs. (above one is for RED key I think, since it states in the first sentence) what do you think on this? Do  any of you had a similar experience on his/her own bike with red and black keys and LEDs flashing ?
I also wonder if the Code (the numbers on the code card) is same with the 5 digit hex-decimal value on the metal plate which  came tied on RED key. I don’t have the code card to disable immobilizer (previous owner told me he lost). Do you know how can I get it (proving I am the legal legitimate owner of the bike)?  I think Ducati must have a backup for this kind of critical information which is not lost-proof ))
Thanks for you help guys,

[g-force]

I have a FIM ECU on my 620 because of the same problem. It doesn't use the immobilizer, the only problem is that there are evidently very few shops that can program them. I happen to live near a shop that is a distributor of FIM, so I kinda lucked out.

[Langanobob]

I'm confused on part of this problem.  I think initially the bike was cranking over (the starter was turning the motor over, even though it would not run).  You said you checked the spark with a screwdriver and there was no spark.

I *think* that if there is a mobilizer/key problem the starter will not even crank over?  Initially even though it wouldn't start, the bike would turn over with the starter but now it doesn't even turn over?

I have a couple of contacts from my days in Turkey that might maybe  be able to help.  Not real likely but you never know.

There is a good Yamaha dealer/service  owned by Suleyman Memnun, a former racing champ.  Here is his address:  Atatürk Oto San. Sit. 2.Kısım 34.Sk. No:1404  34398 Maslak / İstanbul.  He is not a Ducati guy but since he used to race he knows a lot of motorcycle technical people and might be able to put you in touch with someone who can help.

Also, Kazim "Kazaam" Uzunoglu, director of Kazoom Moto Adventures
http://www.kazoom-moto-adventures.com/default.asp?type=contact

Kazim is not a technical guy but he seems to have his finger on the pulse of Istanbul motorcycling and again, might maybe be able to  put you in touch with someone.

[musbos]

I have a FIM ECU on my 620 because of the same problem. It doesn't use the immobilizer, the only problem is that there are evidently very few shops that can program them. I happen to live near a shop that is a distributor of FIM, so I kinda lucked out.

I am sure there are non in Turkey that can program FIM. But I will search for it.
Do you think  if i could get a programmed FIM ECU there? What is needed to program FIM ECU? I hope not the bike itseld )
thanks for your help

[musbos]

Yea you r right, initialy my bike did not run using the start button but started using crossing the two screws below ECU and i rode it to Tech service and electrical service two times(a kind of cross contact to rescue the bike), then it stops working after electrician did smth to her )) The engine started but stops after putting first gear. Noow, it even dont start and i have no spark at plugs. It is a kind of evolving problem like virus ))

I know Suleyman Memnun actualy i attended 2 bike riding classes that he teached (Yamaha Riding School). Definately its a good idea to ask him Thanks for your great remark ... I ll go and see him tomorrow. Never heard of Kazim Uzunoglu but again get in a contact with him too, you never know where chance and help might come ))
thanks for your help.

Does anyone know how can i disable imobilizer without a code card since it s lost )

regards.

[Howie]

It seems FIM is history:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=19051.0