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Ducati Monster Forum
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M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
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Topic: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions (Read 6238 times)
Dirt Monster
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Posts: 33
TerraMostro
M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
on:
January 11, 2010, 11:29:03 AM »
Without getting too much into the back-story (which involves clutch "issues" that developed following an ill-fated south Jersey pines stick forest enduro on the terra mostro --DNF fwiw
). Since then I've been sticking my head deeper into the APTC wet clutch rabbit hole.
[the following are details not necessary to read in order to answer my question -- skip ahead if you're bored: OK, the issue has been an inability to find neutral when the bike is not moving (shifts fine into all gears & neutral when moving). This occurs when the bike is warm/hot, but not when it's cold
. Starting at the handlebar, I've replaced the lever with a trick adjustable unbreakable one (didn't help), bled, bled, bled and rebled the line, (didn't help), replaced the slave cylinder for a trick red anodized one (didn't help), replaced the push-rod o-rings (didn't help), made sure the push-rod was straight (it was), replaced all the drive and driven plates (they were glazed), and cleaned out the slipper hubs as best I could without removing the basket since at the time I didn't have an impact wrench. (didn't help). Then I left it alone and rode the snot out of the rest of last summer and fall, pretty much living with (ignoring) the problem, and then put the bike in the garage, finally got an impact wrench, and pulled it all apart again today.]
It seems that the inner bearing is sticky / worn(?) the bearing is stuck in the clutch basket/driven-gear-of-primary-transmission-assembly, and the bushing is stuck in the bearing. My questions are:
1. do these three parts disassemble by hand?
2. does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get them apart to replace the inner roller bearing (and the inner ring (bushing)? (note: this is NOT the pressure plate - push rod bearing)
for clarification, I've included some photos & diagrams:
Relevant parts are "A", "2", and "3":
from the service manual, disassembly section (parts 1,2 & 3 --parts 1 & A are permanently bonded together):
what mine looks like:
inside basket, head-on:
back side:
back side, head-on:
from the manual "re-assembly" section:
The part # for the bearing is 70250151A at $58, and the inner bushing is 88110261A at $38, and I want to replace both.
From the parts fiche (parts 12,13,14):
I included all that because the parts are called different things (ie. inner ring = bush)
My current theory is that what's happening is that the sticky bearing is binding, heating everything up, and then the bushing freezes up in the bearing and starts dragging on the primary transmission shaft which transmits torque to the gears, and makes it impossible to find neutral. If, in fact, that inner roller bearing is not press fit into the primary driven gear / clutch basket assembly, but rather is hand-assembled / disassembled along with the inner ring / bushing, that would support my theory. If instead the parts ARE supposed to be in there that tight, I still want to replace them, because the bearing is binding pretty badly when I turn the inner ring / bushing by hand. Definitely not smooth. Either way, any ideas how to get this apart?
Ducati Soho is closed today, and I probably won't be able to bring it in to them 'till this weekend at the earliest, but I should be able to order the parts by phone tomorrow.
Thanks for any insights
Logged
"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
rule62
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Re: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
Reply #1 on:
January 11, 2010, 02:06:56 PM »
I recently swapped my APTC for an 800SS non-APTC clutch. I've got the APTC in may garage. Just took a look. Seems like the bearing (3) is press-fit into the clutch housing/primary gear (A) in your first pic. I think it might be pretty tough to get them apart and back together with any precision, without having a decent press. I do not know where my inner ring (2) is. I may have reused it. I cannot remember. But it must not have been in there too tight or it'd still be there now. The bearing on mine seems like it's in pretty good working order.
That being said... you're more than welcome to my APTC clutch housing/primary gear/bearing(A,3) if you want them. Just PM me your address (if in the US) and I'll get it out there as soon as I can. All you gotta do is come up with a new inner ring. I'll just consider it another deposit into my PIF Karma account.
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Dirt Monster
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TerraMostro
Re: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
Reply #2 on:
January 11, 2010, 02:38:19 PM »
Thanks for the reply and the offer. I had read your conversion thread / posts when I was doing my homework -- the info you provided is very helpful. I think my clutch housing / primary gear assembly is A-OK (clean, not notched), and re-useble as long as I can get a new bearing in there. I'm tempted to take you up on your offer, but if I recall, the engine and transmission primary gears are supposed to remain a set. Not that I'd lose much sleep over it, but if I can keep this set together I'll try.
On the other hand, if my clutch housing / primary gear assembly somehow gets roached while removing the inner ring / bearing I'll definitely be in touch! I'm curious to see what the Ducati shop has to say about that inner ring / bush being so stuck in there. Hand turning the inner ring, I can't get it to make a full revolution. It's a little "grindy". And it squeaks.
PS: you still get the Karma deposit to your account just for the offer!
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"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
BK_856er
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2007 M695; 2004 749s
Re: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
Reply #3 on:
January 11, 2010, 07:33:44 PM »
Very interesting. I have nothing useful to add, but I will be watching this thread carefully. I will very likely be messing with my M695 clutch sometime soon....starting to gather up parts and special tools...
I was expecting to see springs on the backside of the basket???
BK
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Speeddog
West Valley Flatlander
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RIP Nicky
Re: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
Reply #4 on:
January 11, 2010, 07:47:10 PM »
That inner ring/bushing (#2) should turn freely, and fall out under it's own weight.
It definitely shouldn't squeak.
Looks to me like the outer race of the needle bearing (#3) has turned a nice shade of blue, 99.9% of the time that means it's toast.
I've R&R'd plates on APTC clutches, but I don't recall whether the needle bearing (#3) was free fitting into the basket/gear (A) or not.
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Dirt Monster
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TerraMostro
Update
«
Reply #5 on:
January 13, 2010, 08:25:08 AM »
I took the day off today (my birthday
), and brought the basket to Ducati Soho. Great guys.
Not only do they not give attitude when you choose to wrench your own bike (unlike at another Manhattan euro <ahembmw cough> dealer), but when he asked me how it happened, and I replied that I had raced an enduro the response was "awesome"
So, they agreed that the inner ring should be removable by hand, and that the bearing shouldn't be squeaking, and that it needed to be replaced. I left the basket with them, and I just got a call that they were able to extract both the inner ring, and the bearing, and that the gear/basket seemed OK. They are ordering the two parts, and anticipate that the bearing (and inner ring) will reassemble by hand, not press-fit. There's a possibility that the bearing seat has tightened up, and if the new bearing doesn't fit in there correctly, I may have to replace the primary gears/basket ($387 -- you may be hearing from me at that point, Rule62). Fingers crossed. I'll update again in a couple of weeks when the parts come in.
Logged
"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
Dirt Monster
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Posts: 33
TerraMostro
Update
«
Reply #6 on:
April 01, 2010, 11:11:09 PM »
Parts finally arrived last week
(what's the deal with Ducati parts delay over the winter??? it's never taken this long before.). There was a clear difference between the old and new bearing AND the bushing. I'm so glad I ordered a new bushing as well -- the old one seems to have expanded slightly and wouldn't even fit into the new bearing race. The new set is creamy delicious -- everything fits together hand-assembled, and the basket spins freely on the shaft.
I spent the day tuesday re-installing the clutch and also pulled the knobbies and swapped in the street wheels. It's supposed to be in the 70's today and I'll be going for a spin to test out whether this has fixed the problem, but from a mechanical stand point, it makes total sense that dragging at that bearing/bushing interface was causing the issue. In all my review of old threads, there's plenty of mentions of people having difficulty finding neutral when stopped, but I hadn't read anywhere that this bearing / bushing was ever a potential cause.
Logged
"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
Speeddog
West Valley Flatlander
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RIP Nicky
Re: M695 clutch basket inner bearing questions
«
Reply #7 on:
April 02, 2010, 05:05:16 AM »
I'm sure that's going to solve the issue.
Best O' luck!
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- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908
~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~
Dirt Monster
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Posts: 33
TerraMostro
I can now find neutral when stopped!
«
Reply #8 on:
April 02, 2010, 08:03:05 AM »
Ohhhhh Yeaaaaaah.
All fixed. All better. Problem solved.
That feels gooooood.
Logged
"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
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