Ducati Monster Forum

What do you find is the most challenging part of riding.  I'm talking riding technique here, what do you struggle with, what do you find hard, what is the most difficult aspect of riding?

Misti

Woo, there's quite a bit. But what comes to mind is mental focus when cornering.

Let's say the first ride of the season, after being off the bike for a while. Coming into the first few tight turns in the local canyons (one side is on-coming traffic, the other side is the side of a mountain, or better yet, a big drop off the mountain. It takes me a few turns to get re-acquainted with cornering again.

I noticed it yesterday too, when I was getting cold, hands getting numb, it was getting dark, and I was getting tired. A brief mental lapse and I noticed that I reverted to old bad habits when I came up on a corner I wasn't familiar with, i.e. touching the brakes when I shouldn't be. Then I just took it easy until my mind could catch up with environmental changes (light, etc.).

Well, I haven't really begun to do long rides yet, but on the daily commute I find U-Turns to still be a challenge. I have been riding for about 2 years and still get a little nervous when I have to do one. Each intersection is different too so it is always something new lol especially because I don't need to do it very often. I guess I just haven't mastered that technique yet...anyone else have this problem?

Concentration and focus. I can usually tell when I'm having a good riding day because I'm scanning ahead, and looking through corners and not thinking much about the bike. Speed comes easy and everything feels like an extension of myself. On less than perfect days my attention slips and I just don't fell as comfortable, so I'm sure to slow down and be a little more cautious.

I'm roughly in the same experience level (2.5 years riding), and have gotten better at U-turns but haven't gotten super clean with it on the monster. I'm pretty good at U-turns on my KTM but for some reason the monster has been a bit trickier. I also had trouble doing a U-turn on a hill, going downhill on the KTM though, I put a foot down, on the downhill side, and I can barely touch both toes on level ground with that bike.  ;D

I find counterbalancing and really turning my head around help U-turns a lot.

Since I'm short, for me it's probably stopping on a slippery (or gravelly) cambered slope. :P

downill turns in somwhat limited vision at highway speeds.. ie, when you are going down a highway coming down a hill in fog and you can't go less than 60mph bc the cars behind you are going that speed and you have to make the curve.

Most challenging?  Having the presence of mind to lean more and open the throttle when in a panic...(gotta hate Keith Code (SR1 and SR2) for being so right :) )

Ditto for U-turns. I've taken both MSF courses, have been riding 16 years, and still tense up when doing it.

Hahaha, U- turns are difficult but tensing up is going to make them much harder :)  I find that feathering the clutch a lot and twisting your head around to look where you want to go help a lot.  Feathering the clutch is huge, it helps you go slow and maintain control.  Also, if you relax your arms and let your body go with the bike it helps a bit too.

A few also mentioned that maintaining concentration was a hard part of riding.  So, how do you make sure that you don't lose your focus when out riding?  what are some things that you guys have done that helps you stay mentally sharp and alert while riding?

Misti

On staying sharp and focused...I've been known to sing to myself while riding.

Steep downhill turns ~

JM

Adding sugar to my latte while splitting lanes is probably top of my list...

Ok, j/k.  For me, it's the mental focus thing (15 yrs riding).  I *KNOW* I have a tendency towards target-fixation and therefore I need to be aware of it's presence in my mind.  I find that if I'm riding above 7/10ths it tends to rear its head.  7/10ths and below though, I'm good. 

I got caught out riding my HD the other day at 8/10ths (which is like 6/10ths on a Monster BTW) and went into a tight (for an HD) 'S' curve.  Well, I didn't see the gravel in my path until nearly the last moment and the HD doesn't like (AT ALL) any changes in line amid corner so I had to wrestle the bike pretty good to stay upright.  Ended up getting a TF moment and came close the gaurd rail.  No damage, just shaken up is all...

Slipping a dry clutch on a 500+ lb bike at a stop sign/light on a steep hill.

Dodging soccer moms.   [bacon]

Cornering. I'm always worried about what unexpected debris might be on the road. Also the downhill corners. Gravity is pulling me down and I don't always want to throttle out of the turn. I don't want to coast either. As far as holding up cars if I need to slow down, I will hold up the cars. I don't want to push myself beyond my abilities and my cornering abilities are not fast. I do the speed limit on most curves.

Realizing that the bike can do more then I think it can.

Cornering when I'm pushing myself.  I can be having a great ride carving tons of perfect turns  [moto] only to have a one brief mental lapse  [roll] which leads to a waaaaay early apex and/or entering with too much speed.  :-X This in turn leads to sweeping too wide on the early apex and then a bad tendency to fixate on the ditch when turning left or the car in the opposite lane when turning right.   :o [bang]  I'm getting much better with the whole fixation thing, but it is like peeling velcro getting my eyes off of danger. 

downhill turns

just when I think I'm getting there I stuff one up, get flustered, clutch-in coast the next couple and start all over again.

trying to get that rear brake drag just right is pretty hard

I'm only 6 months in!

A lot of you mentioned downhill turns and they certainly are challenging, however, I've never used my rear brake on the street in the middle of the turn, but I hear people talking about it all the time.  How many of you use the rear brake and why?

Misti

I'm not too good with turns yet, but the most nervous thing for me is starting off on a hill.

uphill starts

and

parking

on the track, its hard braking while downshifting and corner entry especially corners with a dowhill braking zone and more than 2 downshifts.  I've gotten a lot better at it but still not perfect.  Pretty sure the GP shift will help a bit as well (for some reason it just feels more natural on downshifting)

I use my rear brake to help hold the bike for hill starts and quick stops.


I thought all braking and shifting should be done BEFORE corner entry ( guess it depends on where one says the corner begins, maybe turn initiation is what i'm thinking of), so you can get on the gas as soon as possible?

when approaching a light that turned yellow, not sure if i should stop or blow it, and then if i decide to stop HARD braking...last time i did that the bike slid underneath me, front wheel just went HARD LEFT and that was it,  so not a good memory of that... (only broke off a barend mirror and no other scratch).
so yeah, hard braking.... (and listening to that annoying squeaky rear brake)

+1  I can shift into gear, engine brake a little and swing into a corner all day every day, but coming into a turn FAST, having to brake, and downshift to the right gear to get out of the apex quickly still has me in a bind at times.  It has also taken me a bit to get used to looking through a turn.  It's not so much a case of technique training as it is I tense up and get scared sh*&%less every time I take my eye off of the road in front of me.  I always feel like I'm going to "over scan" and miss a gargantuan patch of gravel or something of that nature (or as I found on a recent ride, a gargantuan patch of cow pie).

Also +1 on what misti said about uturns.  Los Monstros have a nasty little turning radius so feathering the clutch, getting up to a couple thousand rpms and moderating your speed with the rear brake makes things pretty stable due to the gyroscopic effect of the higher revs.

Other than those little things, I'm pretty much the perfect motorcyclist  ;D

1) Making it home alive.
2) downhill turns
3) riding rough terrain at high way speeds

Hands down: lines.  Period.  It just isn't clicking yet.  I can't get my brain wrapped around finding visual markers  for where to turn in and then steer the bike.

Hey! I do that too! Long straight road in a city with low speeds  [moto]

Lines are difficult to master for sure.  For me it is more about having CONSISTENT lines that is the hardest thing.  So what kinds of things are you using for your visual markers, or trying to use, and what do you think is the thing that is screwing you up the most in regards to your lines?  Are you just not finding anything to look at to help you know where to turn the bike?  Or, are you focussing too much on what you are trying to use as a reference point?  Have you ever tried to use your apex as an indicator for when to turn the bike in?  Just trying to really understand what you can't "wrap your brain around"

Misti  ;D

It almost seems like mental overload.  I'm so focused on doing everything else that I don't see anything that's off the asphalt.  The only markers I can pick up are the ones that are between the left side of the track and the right.  When at Barber this year, I was able to pick up a little more outside that, but I still wasn't able to widen my vision beyond that too much.  I think it's just a matter of saddle time.

Riding in Manila is very challenging.but technique wise?it would have to be u turns.

Well hang on here, what is the reason why you would need to have markers or reference points that are OFF the asphalt?  You say that you can pick up RP's between the left side of the track and the right side of the track, so what makes you think that you need to widen your vision even further than that?  For the most part, I stick to reference points that are on the track because that is where I want the bike to be. If I start looking off of the track for points or try to see too much, then there is more of a chance that I will get distracted or find myself running wide or getting confused.  There are only a few kinds of turns or a few places where I look off track for my reference points.

When would you need to find points that are OFF the track?  I know Barber well too so feel free to use specific corners as examples.....

Cheers

Misti

I don't remember enough of it, but obviously, the tower is a huge one.  I don't remember exactly where I would aim, but I just remember that it was staring at me every time I went up that hill.  I'll figure it out someday.   [thumbsup]

I hate to say it, but we had to pull out of going to Laguna for CSS.  I was really looking forward to your instruction, but we just couldn't make it happen this year.  It turns out that it was a good idea to pull out, since it looks like I'll be traveling during that time anyway.  Perhaps next year.

Too bad about Laguna!  Well, since you are not coming to class, I'll give you some homework for the next time you go to a track.  After your first session, sit down with a blank piece of paper and draw the track, don't worry about your artistic ability or accuracy, just get out what you can remember and start marking down all the reference points you can think of.  (include dark patches of pavement, towers that stare at you, skid marks, brake markers, cones etc...) then take a look at your drawing and see what corners are looking vague and then spend some time looking for points in those sections next time you go out.  See if that helps with your consistency of lines and with learning the track a little faster.  And, let me know how it goes :)

Cheers!!!

Misti

The biggest fear is coming out from a petrol station onto a busy road. As I came out of the petrol station, a jerk on his Kawasaki ER6N came from behind and cuts right in front of me. At slow speed cornering ~ surprises are totally unfriendly. As a result ~ fell off the bike. Since then, each time getting out from any petrol stations makes my heart beat like twice its normal rate...

Riding on highways when the wind gusts are strong enough to make you change lanes involuntarily.

Hardest thing to learn as a beginner: doing everything at once.
Hardest thing about riding: maintaining skills and knowing your limits.

Learning your personal limits is one of the hardest things to do because you have no reference except the people around you who may not know theirs either.

As far as lines and reference points go, slow down, take your time. Build up speed *after* you've learned the line.

Mine would be knee down...but not one of my priorities though ;D

The most difficult part of me is to expect the unexpected.  Cars and people coming out of nowhere; realize sand and gravel in the middle of the road (sand leftover from snowstorm in Seattle) when entering a corner with the right speed, angel, and line.  Slow speed turns with uneven pavement and obsticles, etc.  I guess as I gain more experience, I would be more prepared to deal with those unexpected.

I have a problem not coming home when the wife wants me too. That and decreasing radius downhill turns.

oh i got one...

wet roads (wet snow just starting to fall), coming down a hill with a slight curve to the right leading into a circle to the left with your exit being the first right going up the hill on a decreasing radius turn.

yep... that was me the other day. over shot the circle nearly ended up in the middle cause couldn't trail brake and turn to the right due to the lower traction with the subzero temp (it was 40 when i went to work, 30 when i left)


luckily no one was in the circle. so was able to come to almost a complete stop turn to the hard at like a 90 deg. and get back on line. the guy behind me was nice enough to give me space too.

The most challenging part for me is trying to understand why I ride a motorcycle.

It would be much safer and easier to not ride at all and not come chatting on a site like this trying to explain stuff.

I can’t avoid thinking how fragile a human body is and what destruction might happen if something went wrong? yet riding a bike is such a thrill I don’t want to stop, I love doing it.

No doubt.  I enjoyed a nice super-moto type slide turning into the bus lanes from WB Airport Way.  It is almost impossible not to run through sand when making that left turn. 

ever since i crashed at road atlanta in '95... i've been skiddish in right turns. the steel pin in my elbow is a constant reminder

Good comments about learning your personal limits.  I find it is hard to measure progress on the street, lots of sampling and trial & error which seems less than concrete.  Some days you just feel it and it seems like it is all working, and some days not so much.  They say it is spiritual, a religious experience.  I think it is challenging to really consolidate the gains so that the next time you ride you are building on your experience vs getting comfortable with what you have aready done before (i.e. maintaining skills). 

Someone mentioned U-turns, well I noticed that my S4 has less steering lock than any other street bike I've ever had.  Maybe that's it. 

Most challenging?   When riding with friends, friends with lots of experience, the hard part is keeping the speeds down.  We tend to get the "NOT ME" thing going on when we are out blasting, as in when someone is pushing you and trying to pass, and you're thinking "NOT ME, BUDDY", it's all good fun, but the tickets are outrageous.   As for what I consider the most challenging, it's maintaining focus.    I don't ever just putt along, looking at the little birdies.   I attack the road, I ride hard, everytime I'm out, I ride pretty fast, nothing outrageous, but a pretty quick pace, and that helps me maintain focus.   Whenever I'm out riding, I consider it practice.   Not necessarily race practice, just good riding practice.   I like to split lanes.  I like to do a lot of things that other people don't like to do when riding.  But it all comes down to maintaining focus, if I feel that my mind is wandering, I'm kind of daydreaming along, I park it, that's when people get hurt or killed.  If I'm out and someone catches me off guard by pulling out in front of me or changing lanes on me, I consider it my fault for not catching it before it happens.  I've been riding street bikes since 1976 and dirt bikes since 1971.   I've kind of developed sort of a sixth sense about cars and what they are going to do.   And a lot of goobers on bikes do the same stupid stuff, not paying attention and weaving around and stuff. 

As far as learning to ride better, I feel that nothing beats seat time.   Ride in the rain.  Ride in the cold.  Ride when it's hot.  Ride down dirt roads.  Figure out what that bike is going to do in any situation that you might get yourself into.   And I also have myself convinced that riding/racing dirt bikes will make any one a better street rider.  There is probably going to be some argument about that one. 

Be safe. Robert

i had a bad wreck at road atlanta back in '95. steel pin in my elbow, cracked ribs, beaten and bruised like hell...  not to mention i totaled the bike...

still to this day i'm a bit nervous in right hand corners. I don't think it shows too bad in my riding, atleast none of the guys at the track have ever mentioned it.. but some rught hand turns... make me start second guessing myself so much that i may blow an entire lap just thinking about one silly turn that i blew when i was 15

i get skitish if the front end starts to wobble. i had a bad tank slapper one time.

front or rear.. as long as its sliding in a left hand turn i'm ok lol  [moto]

I have found low-speed handling of all sorts- U-turns, for instance- to be the most problem, probably because I leaned ever-so-slightly into te turn. I'm old enough that I didn't grow up riding dirt bikes and never learned some of those skills. What I have learned that has helped a lot is to 1) keep my weight on the outside peg when making a low-speed turn; 2) not use the front brake; 3) try not to slip the clutch too much; but 4) control the speed of the bike with the rear bike and throttle. And, I practice. Empty shopping mall lots are great places to work on a bunch of stuff- panic stops, low-speed handling. I'm not too old to improve my riding, but I prefer not to make my mistakes in traffic.

Nicro, I have to disagree with part of your reply.   Weighting the outside of the peg is a good thing.  But I slip the clutch and control things that way.   I keep the throttle steady, and let the clutch in and out depending on the attitude of the bike, and how my turn is progressing.  But that's just me, maybe someone else has a better tip. 

And I always use the front brake, although lightly when whipping it into a Uturn. 

lol on the U-turns.  I have been riding on the street for about 3 years and in the dirt for around 15 and I hate U-turns.  It is always kinda hit or miss though.  Sometimes the turn isn't all that bad.  The thing I have a hard time with on the track is establishing good braking points.

+1

This is also the way that the MSF teaches low speed maneuvers. At low RPM it is my opinion that you have so much more control with the clutch than the throttle. This is especially true on my S2R1K which hates to be below 3K with any kind of load on the engine.

I'd have to say keeping within earshot of posted speed (+10mph) is a challenge.
I say this because age has taught me to respect by limitations before they are exceeded.
And, much of my riding (commuting) is on 35, 45 mph country roads (I take some liberty in my 10mile 45mph twistie country road).

Having said that, low speed manuevers are certianly the most awkward.
Riding in wet presents an entire host of challenges, once again patience and respect of limitations are key.

The handling of a Monster forgives many sins, in my world.

It's been a while, figured the thread could use a bump.

I have a hard time with uphill, off-camber, tighter-than-90-degree left turns starting from a stop, going onto a road without stop signs and poor visibility in at least one direction.  This pattern occurs in a few intersections in the area, I can do it but it's slow, I'd like to be quicker because of the cross traffic.

Practice, practice, practice.

(http://paularickert.net/albums/userpics/portola-84.jpg)

Picking myself up off the pavement after I crash. ;D

 [thumbsup]

Seriously, the area I find the most frustrating and rewarding - depending on the day - is being able to match what I'm seeing with what I'm doing or, perhaps said differently, putting the bike in the places that I want it to be/me to go based on visual feedback/body feel.  For example, the feeling that the turn I'm watching come up seems to not get to me when I think it should, or gets to me too fast...meshing the picture in my head with what's going on around me (the opposite of things happening in slow motion, as the good riders say).

Someone earlier mentioned reference points on the track.....how about rps on the street, where the types/distribution/consistency of physical 'things' that might qualify as rps can be overwhelming or useless, depending on the situation.

Yet, this never seems to be a problem (or even in my consciousness) when driving a car on the same roads?



 

Keith Code recommends a 3 step process that I have found to be very helpful for developing reference points on the street:

You should always pick out your turn point (some piece of tarmac) so you know when to end braking and start leaning the bike (assuming no trail braking).  Just before releasing brakes and adding steering input, I shift my visual focus from the turn point to searching and locking on to the apex of the turn.  If it is a long turn, then I focused on the leading edge until I see the apex (or what I think is the apex).  As soon as I get close to the apex, I start focused on my exit position and gas and unlean.

It took some practice and I continue to have to remind myself to do it, but when I am able to pick out the three reference point, I am always surprised how fast one can get through a corner.

Car is easier because you cannot pick your lane position; you are always driving the middle of the road.

Good luck and have fun!

Sounds like a good approach - I suspect I'll need a lot of mental discipline to sort through all the stuff in my field-of-vision and select useful, optimal RPs on the street.

There was a Clint Eastwood movie in which he gunned down a would be bounty hunter.
 
Eastwood replied, as only Clint could, "A man has got to know his limitations."

Learning your limitations is the hardest thing to master in motorcycle riding.

Even Rossi overestimates his limitations at times. 

What are your limitations?  [leo]

I always find it hard to jump onto a cold set of tires and treat them like they should be treated before they warm up .... especially when they're new cold tires.  I haven't crashed because of this unease, but I've gotten extremely excited a few times.   ;D

Woodside road? Damn that crazy little turn...especially coming down the hill heading down Portola.

For me, it's remembering to always respect the bike. Respect the acceleration, brakes, tires, weight/size, and the fact that $hit can happen. R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

the whole "you go where you are looking" thing

i used to have trouble when following another rider through a curve. had to make an effort to watch the apex instead of the other rider...

That's up there with cold, wet tires on an oily, city street corner.

Excellent advice!  But he said that in "Magnum Force" (maybe he said it another movie, but thats what I know it from), when at the end, he leaves a bomb in a car being driven away by Hal Holbrook and it blowd him up real good.

Clint also told a bounty hunter that dyin' ain't much of a way to make a livin'