Ducati Monster Forum

Before I get into this discussion I feel I should mention that the 2006 and the 2007 S2R1Ks are different. Initially I thought it was just the check engine light. Removing the O2 sensor on an 06 does not trigger the check engine light, but it does on the 07. Then after many discussions with other DMFers I now belive it's a little more than that. For example, NAKID recently installed a Dynojet PCIII on his 06 and has been having good luck with it with just the O2 sensor removed. I know of someone who's tried that on an 07 and it didn't work. It did at first but after a few hundred miles, the bike started running like crap. Going back to the dyno and redoing the map made it run good again, but then after a few more hundred miles it ran like crap again. I think the bike/ecu does some sort of test and when it finds the O2 sensor is faulty (or in this case disconnected) it changes the fuel map. I guess we'll need to stay tuned to see what the long term effects are on NAKID's bike, but from what he told me last week, it seems to be running great.

 Now onto why I started this thread.

 As many of you know I have been pretty active here and on TOB trying to find an acceptable solution (other than spending $1200 on a DP ECU) to the poor throttle response/surging issues with my 07 S2R1K. As stated above, I had a check engine light after I removed the O2 sensor. I could have dealt with the light but the bike never seemed to run as strong with the O2 sensor removed. The surging was gone but the lack of power was discouraging to say the least. I did find some of the lost power by backing out the air bleed screws to make the bike run leaner. I kept backing them out and the bike ran stronger and smoother but once I got to a certain point, the idle would increase to over 1500 rpm which wasn't acceptable.

 Last year in an effort to find an inexpensive solution I bought a Rapid Bike O2 emulator from Wild Bill @ Rage Moto. He had purchased it for his S4Rs and then decided to go a different route so he gave me a deal on it. I installed it on my bike and reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery and then took it for a ride. The bike seemed great for about the first 40-50 miles or so and then the check engine light came on and then when I would roll on the throttle the bike started bucking so bad it almost launched me off. I pulled over and turned the bike off and then restarted it and continued on my way. A few miles later I encountered the same problem so I carefully (and slowly) rode to my destination which was only a few miles away. When I arrived I disconnected the battery and removed the Rapid Bike O2 emulator. The ride back was pretty uneventfull and the bike rode as it did before with the O2 sensor removed.

 A few weeks ago I reinstalled the O2 sensor just for laughs and the bike responded by reminding me how much more power it had with it connected. I have been riding it since then with it connected although I have been getting tired of the surging and popping/backfiring on decel. I tried to tune it out using the air bleed screws and removed most of the popping/backfiring but it was still present during decel from high RPMs.

I had decided to just live with it until last week when I found a thread on another board (don't worry, not TOB) regarding a DIY O2 sensor eliminator.

The basic idea was to install a 330 Ohm resister in place of the O2 sensor. From all the feedback I saw in the thread it seemed to work for them so I thought I would give it a try. As some of you know, I can be a bit anal about my bike and I really didn't want to just stick a resistor in the end of the plug and be done with it. The thought of that and wrapping it with some electrical tape just wasn't an option so I thought I would use the connector from the Rapid Bike O2 emulator and solder the resister to the wires coming off of that and then shrinkwrap the whole thing for a nice clean look and to seal it from moisture.

 Before I chopped of the end of the emulator I took my multimeter to it to see if I could determine what exactly it did. To my surprise measuring the resistance yielded a resistence of guess what...........


Wait for it..........



..........330 Ohms!

 I was a bit surprised and disappointed as I thought that if it measured 330 Ohms, why bother trying the DIY trick I had found. That is until I remembered the ground wire on the emulator. I'm not sure what the emulator is supposed to physically do when you plug it in but what ever it is, it becomes an active circuit when it's grounded and plugged into the bike.

 Not really expecting anything groundbreaking I decided to plug the emulator into the bike without grounding it to see what kind of results I would get. So basically it was just putting the 330 Ohm resistor inline like I read in the thread. I went through all the normal steps and disconnected the battery before plugging it in, waiting for about an hour and then reconnecting the battery.

 As soon as I thumbed the starter button I knew something was different. Normally it will start right up, but it would take a few revolutions for it to fire. Not this time, it fired up without any hesitation, almost before I released the button.  :o  Not to mention how smooth it was while it was idling.

 Ok so now for a test ride. I let the bike warm up as I put on my gear as I always do and then took it for a short ride. The bike ran flawlessly. I was a bit skeptical at first because of all the problems I had with the emulator last year but I have about 200-250 miles on it since with a bunch of key cycles and I've still not encountered any issues. No surging, no popping or backfiring on decel, nothing. I can even ride the bike at 3K rpm's and it's smooth unlike before when it shuddered and shook at any rpm under 4K.

 All I can say is this is the best, most cost effective solution for any of you who are experiencing the surging issues and the popping/backfiring on decel. A simple 330 Ohm resistor is all you need. I plan on putting a about another 150 miles or so on it tomorrow. I'll check back in and let you guys know if there are any problems.  [thumbsup]

 

What you are doing works -- but isn't perfect for all scenarios as we discovered.  You might want to go to a variable resistance circuit w/POT dial to vary to optimize.  Little changes in resistance do make a bit of difference.

Any link or "how to" details for installing the 330R Resistor to a stock O2 sensor?

If I understand you correctly you have a resistor connected to the wire from the ECU that formerly connected to the O2 sensor and the other end of the resistor is not connected to anything?  That is no different than just unplugging the O2 sensor.  If you do run a resistor to ground or use the RapiBike module you will still have problems because the ECU is not looking for the same value for the entire fuel map.  So if you install a fixed value resistor, the ECU will always be trying to correct in other parts of the map.

 No, you have it wrong. The resistor goes inline with two of the wires on the plug for the O2 sensor. I can't remember which colors but I'll check and post up a little "how to".

would this be similar to what this guy is doing/selling??/

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=49891

He did this for the GT1000 bike but from reading posts here he's had success w/some Monsters:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=49949

I suppose if you don't understand whats in the little black shrink wrap, paying $80 is fine.  It's a $2 resistor w/heat sink and 2 plugs on the end though :)

I don't really mind paying $80 for something I am not sure to do my self... even if the real cost is only $2...

Think about the guys paying $1200 for an "DP" ECU that cost no more than $30 to make... [bang]
Seriously, if it's that simple it's awesome!

Thanks Monstermash and the others for the detialled story! [clap]

The other guy is selling them for $30 actually....not $80.  $30 is an expensive lunch out with my co-workers, so it's a drop in the bucket for a plug & play item that might work.  If it doesn't...oh well...MickeyD's for the lunch the next day.

Whos's selling for $30. the only guy I'm aware of (fatduc) is $80 plus $14 shipping. it is however adjustable to some degree

Its He man mod time.

If you look at the other link on monstermash's thread, i posted the link on how to make the device.

The difference between the $80 and the $5 one you can build by yourself is adjustbility. the $80 switch (is suppose to...) be able to adjust anywhere from 14 to 13.1:1 AFR.

The hard part in making these things is getting the connector. I haven't been able to find one. you guys find me one, ill make that shit right now.

My bike is surging like a mothermake the beast with two backser on idle after i got her back. :(

 Got her back from where?

You are correct - on his first post he listed he was making a production run for $30 to $40 I guess that was a first run only....my bad.

it was at the dealer for 2 weeks....and another week...and another weeek. and another week, and finnaly when you think that was it, they said another week.

I had my valve guides replaced under warranty, and i dont want to go back there. trying to get a PCIII to work. Sold the S4R PCIII and i bought a 620PCIII, but the make the beast with two backser sent a non USB model and i have no serial ports. (waiting for paypal to reverse the claim). it has all the right connectors though.

My '06 S2R1k has been wired with the madduc O2 manipulator since Sept. 7th. I have no complaints.
I put it in the mid position and left it. I've put at least 5 tanks thru the bike since... I just don't think about it anymore since I'm not reminded that I HAD a low rpm issue. I can idle through my neighborhood at about 2.5k with only slight chain snatchiness just from the fact that the engine is turning so slowwwww. And as I've posted here and on TOB, the dead spot at 4k is gone. Some said this was the transition area from closed to open loop. I'm planning on wiring in my PDA, just got some connectors for plugging in for power, and will record what is going on under stock and manipulator conditions. I will also check to CO readings... just have to make some time.

I'm pretty sure that he is offering a 30 money back offer, but I don't think you will return it.
Some GT owner had issues prior to using it with bad idling/stalling. For the most part I believe all others have had positive feedback on the variable resistor. I have been keeping an eye on the thread to see if he had gotten any dyno runs done, which would be nice to see.

Maybe I am missing something but where exactly do you go to purchase one of these do-hickies ?

Hey Billg69:

I have an 08 s2r 1K with the RB 02 Emulator installed.  When I initially put on the Emulator, my exhaust was completely stock, and it made a night and day difference (sounds like what you experienced with the FatDuc gizmo, but cost me an extra $150...) 

However, I've since removed my cat and udder and put on a Spark mid-pipe.  As a result, the bike now has considerably more punch, especially in the mid-range, but some of the snatchy/lurchiness has returned at low RPMs.  Not consistently, seems to be mainly when it's hot, but it definitely runs a bit rougher now that it did before removing the cat and udder.

Do you think the FatDuc will give me greater adjustability than the RB Emulator?  I suppose I should ask this question of the guy who's making them, but you have a bike like mine so figured I'd try here first. Thanks,

Topangster

www.fatduc.com

considering trying it myself

hey Topangster - i've also got a 08 S2R1k - full spark system with the udder gone, and with this the predictable problem of being too lean - im just about to fit a new ecu and dyno it. my mechanic has the ecu details but i will post them when available. i'm not using the DP ECU as too expensive - theres a cheaper option made in Australia.

the only issue i have with the resistor setup is that it is a fixed setting - doesnt really optimise performance, just makes the mix a set amount richer throughout the full rev range. so depends on why you started customising the bike in the first place.

Initially my bike had the udder with staintune ti exhaust. Bike was sooo restricted compared to a full exhaust. I went with the Arrow system based on LT at desmotimes stating it was the one system he found that worked with the stock ECU.

While the bike certainly breathed better, took away some back pressure, the 3k-4k range still sucked the same. I'm sure I've been waiting like many for Competition Systems to release an ECU for the S2R, it was just too easy to try out the Manipulator.

q monster: I had the understanding that up until 4k is when the bike changes loops. Maybe that explains the 4k dead spot I use to have. I dunno, being a shadetree wrench... But for sure you can putt around at 2.5k (keeps the noise down until I get out of the neighborhood) with only a faint feeling of engine/chain snatch.

The bike is better behaved when up to operating temps, but I do not smell any richness in the exhaust during startup.

My understanding of how this is working is this... please someone with ECU knowledge correct me if I'm off... Is that the ECU map still does what it does at different TP, but since the Manipulator trims out the signal at a constant setting, it richens up things from idle to 4k. After 4k the ECU works from the ECU and does not adjust based on the O2 sensor. I have not noticed any added power, but for sure the transition in acceleration from the bottom end is as it should be, smooth. You can pull away from a dead stop and ease thru the gears. You can short shift to keep the revs down at 4k cruising. Prior to this, on my ST3 I would idle down the road at 4k and run the S2R at 5k just because the motor sounded comfortable there. Now I can ease up without feeling that the motor is bogged. And of course with the full exhaust, if you don't feel like doing parade laps... if you drop the hammer you leave a sonic signature for all to enjoy... not to mention the added benefit of setting off car alarms, it sort of a cheering section as you meander thru a parking lot!

QMonster:

I would be VERY interested in a lower cost ECU solution.  Do post what you discover...

I'm looking at going with a Spark system too (already have the mid-pipe).  I like the exhaust on either side look.  On the other hand, I have heard the Arrows work best with the stock ECU.  My main reason in making changes is to get some more noise from the pipes (stock is so quiet people can't hear my when I split lanes), and I also want it to run smoother.  I got it to be pretty smooth stock, using the 02 Emulator, bu it was just too quiet.

Topangster

billyg - you're right about the 4k change in ECU input - below this the o2 sensor is feeding back info so changing the resistance can alter the feedback and result in a richer mix. after 4k however, the sensor input is minimal and therefore the ECU map determines the mix and performance. with the full spark system and no cat conv the mix is too lean throughout the rev range and therefore need a more appropriate map - problem is of course being that the standard ECU can't be remapped.

Topangster, the new ECU im about to get is being fitted by Todd Patterson at Wayne Patterson Ducati - Western Australia. you can google wayne patterson and their website and email is available. they'll get the ECU in and remap it for your bike and send it to you. im getting mine fitted there and will have the bike dyno'd to get the best map. i already have had the standard bike premodification and post-spark dyno'd so will post the comparative numbers when available - probably in about 2 weeks time

I assume that people have been measuring the resistance across the 02 sensor when it is cold, that is where they are getting the 330 ohms, has anyone measured across the sensor when the bike is running?

The resistance will change depending upon the Temperature of the of the sensor, so I would also assume you would have to try a few different resistance ratings of until you found the happy medium between hot and cold performance.

Or as others have done, use a pot to tweak the resistance, again in the hope of finding the happy medium.

I'd be interested to see the resistance when the bike is running at normal temps.

He does.
I just ordered mine.
I am curious to see what it's gonna do to my 2007 S2R1k: My ECU has been changed by DNA at 4000 miles (I have now 18000 miles on it) under warranty for a so-called "new, improved" ECU.
My bike was stalling at every stops. Bad.
After they changed the ECU, the bike ran OK (meaning no more stalling issues) and still runs OK.
I am curious to see if your manipulator will improve the performance on my bike as for the others.

I'll keep you posted guys.

It appears to be an AMP connector, moto wheels carries them

Just bit the bullet and ordered one of these things for my 07 S2R1K.
I will post my results once I get it installed and get some miles on it...

link? i have not been able to find anything. :( i searched electrical -> ducati -> monster

http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/10876/956?BML=10000-S,10238&RQS=C~10876^M~FEAT^BML~10000-S,10238 (http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/catalog/cinf/en/c/10876/956?BML=10000-S,10238&RQS=C~10876^M~FEAT^BML~10000-S,10238)

Jason,

As I said above I ordered up one of your units today for my 07 S2R1K.
I look forward to getting it and seeing how it works on my scoot.

Here is my review
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=12002.0

It kills to read this after I just bought all the stuff for maintenance...  I'm thinking there's no way I can talk the wife into letting me blow another $100 this month on a bike I bought this month, then bought iridium plugs (4), belts, seals, a rear stand (SSS), and Desmo Time's book for....  I'm gonna have to think of something to buy for her bike first.  Maybe get the pod filters on and the electrics hidden, then get a CF painter to go over her rid and clean it up...

Then....  This fat duc buisness.  The part looks the stones, I hope for $80 it really is...

I wonder how it compares to the Power Card Desmo Times is selling? Anybody have any experience with this?  when they say non-O2 DS1000, are they excluding the S2R?

 Yes, they are excluding the S2R1K. The DS1000 motor was available in a non-O2 version as the M1000i.e.

Didnt one of the guys try it on a Sport 1000?

Got mine last Friday, Just need to hook it up and see what happenes (will post results)...

No problem Hee Man will build you one for $5  ;D

hey,  i never said it'll work.   ;D.

I didnt think about %error that comes with Radio Shack parts. The voltage range that they are aiming for is the % error of Radio shack parts. I'm still confident you could build it for under $50 if you look for the right parts. But at that cost + shipping, its much easier to just buy one.



HOWEVER, you still have to understand that this isnt an ideal solution. because your target AFR and your actual AFR are always off by some margin (usually leaner). Think about it this way,

stoichiometricly, your looking at ideal 14.1AFR. Now think about this, is the mixture of Air and fuel 100% homogenous? or is there a higher concentration of fuel around the injector area, and how long does the combustion process take vs how long does engine allow the cobustion process to occur? At high RPMs this area of fuel tends to not completely combust before it is spit out into the exahust. So when you trick to the O2 sensor and tell the ECU to put in more fuel, its "all across the board", aka your targeting for whatever AFR your setting it for all across the range of the O2 sensor.

Realistically its not 14.1  across the board, it varies from rpm to rpm and to really get it run perfect you need to adjust  your fuel map at all RPMs.

and its HE man not HEE man.  [evil]

 I think he has you confused with Hee Haw!  [laugh]

Now im angry. >:(

Before someone crash into my bike this morning, I could real tell this stuff is awesome... Really.

Now my bike is dead, my gear is toasted (helmet, jacket glove, backprotection, helmet) and my wrist broken... :'(
But I guess I can't complain... I am in one piece...

Awe man!  Bummer on your dead bike!  Glad you are still livin'!

 Awww, come on man. I was just kidding.  ;D

All this time I thought it was HERMAN
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/herman4.jpg)

 ;D ;D

got the chance to put on the Ultimap ecu this week - whilst it was a bit smoother couldn't get it to idle at less than 3200 rpm - and as would be the case no one there to ask as probably at the Aussie motogp :( [bang]
and it wouldn't talk to the ducati computer [its meant to in their notes] so couldn't adjust it [bang]

so fitted the DP ECU [thumbsup] - smooth as and nice power delivery. next time im there i'll dyno but after all the f'ing around ran out of time.