Ducati Monster Forum

The end is near....

i don't like it, but it makes perfect sense. while michelin has had all the good teams locked up for the better part of two decades, it appears they've lost their mojo.

all of the championship capable riders are now on bridgestone or are going to bridgestone-running teams. (well, i guess everybody is going to bridgestone-running teams, now.  ;D)

the unfortunate thing is that the single-tire rule is going to prevent another bridgestone coming into the class to develop their tires with the hope of being competitive. bridgestone toppled the giant, but it's unlikely we'll see it happen again in the near future (if ever).

on the surface i don't like it either.  but i do support it, simply because i think it will make the racing better.  it's not in the 'spirit' of MotoGP but i can get my head around carving out this aspect of a prototype series.  hell, just watch a wsbk race.

Amen. I don't buy into the " MotoGP technology trickle down effect" for the rest of us.

MotoGP has been dominated by Michelin for years, Bridgestone has been making huge strides recently but if you go to your average club race/track day the vast majority of riders are on Pirellis, Michelin and a smattering of Dunlops with nary a Bridgestone in sight.

I'm not saying that it hasn't affected consumer tire technology, but various independent tire comparos rate all DOT Race tires fairly close to one another. You'd think that if MotoGP was such a huge test and development boon for consumer tires that Michelin would dominate.

funny, in so-cal there are a lot of Dunlops and Bridgestones.  and a lot of ppl, me included, think the Pirelli and Michelin DOTs are crap.  or crap when the tire goes off anyway.

but i don't even care about the trickle-down connection.  wsbk has proven that if you take that piece out of the equation the racing gets A LOT better.  i'm interested in tire technology but it's waaayyyyy down my list in priority as a race fan.  i want to see the bikes and the riders compete, not the tires.

i don't neccessarily agree with that. wsbk has only proven that a spec tire won't ruin your race series.

i think the racing got better because of the racers in the class: bayliss, haga, corser, biaggi, etc... that's a lot of talent.

yeah, maybe the tire situation leveled the playing field a little bit, but i don't think it's the reason the racing has been exciting.

...we're about to split hairs on "exciting" vs. "closer"

+1 

Michelin has been dominating GP for decades (and WSBK for a long time) and they're the last tire I would ever put on my bike.  If the trickle down theory is true (do Republicans run GP? - supply side tirenomics?) then either A) GP riders LOVE tires that give shit for feedback or B) you need to be riding at a GP pace to enjoy them.  The only person I know that runs Michelins are Robert Jensen and Dale Kieffer.  Robert gets paid a ton to do it and Dale sells them for a living so it's in his best interest to pretend that they're not total POS.

if i had a dollar for every time i've heard "I don't know what happened.  Suddenly I was on the ground" from Power Race users.

LOL, Easy there big fella. I'm still looking for reasons why I had an enormous lowside a month ago...

Power race, 2 laps in, knee down, maintenance throttle, WHAT THE FU.....!!

if the shoe fits....

pun intended. =)


and if you factor the cost of that lowside into it, Dunlops are downright cheap.    [cheeky]

(http://7mzdt.com/images/sow090108.jpg)
;D

yeah so anyway... single tire rule, good.

What we have yet to experience, is what will happen when the tire 'contract' comes up for bids and the incumbent loses to a low bid from a company that has not run its tires in the class for a few years.

That'd be cool, the entire MotoGP grid on Tomahawks. 
Red, yellow, blue and green 'darkies' off of every corner. ;D

samecar

samebike

Yep.

Yeah, ever since WSBK went mono-tire that thing has been a spitting image of Nascar.  Whew.  I mean, I can hardly tell who's riding a Chevy and who's riding a Dodge.

+1  I had allways though that the MotoGp was better than this.  :-\

ok, you got me: are you continuing the sarcasm or did you actually think daryl was serious?

I was joking about the Nascar thing.  ;)  Serious about the MotoGp being better than this.

Why do we care if there are multiple tire manufacturers again?  There is a rider and constructor championship and no tire championship.

I'm looking forward to all the tire excuses evaporating from this sport.

And the trickle-down theory is totally bogus.  My Michelins are the worst tire I've ever used.

I just don't understand why MotoGp would ~want~ to do this.  it removes a huge amount of water cooler conversation about the races..

"Did he win because of the tires?  blah blah blah"

+1  I wonder if Stoner had not won in 07, would this had happened?  And why did the MotoGp change the rules in 07 to help the "little" tire manufactures, then ban the big guy outright for the 09 season.  They both seemed like a, which ever way the wind blows, decision.

the '07 change was made in the name of cost containment for everybody. it really shouldn't have had an impact on the racing.

the '09 change is being made because it's impacting the show. there is no tire competition currently in motogp. you have bridgestone giving their riders competitive tire and michelin just trying to get their riders around the track.

think of it as a change made in the name of safety.

it's a sad situation, really.

fwiw, i don't mind bridgestone being awarded the contract. they've proven that they can consistently build a competitive tire for the series. if the contract was awarded to michelin, it'd be welfare. they don't deserve it.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that either. Unfortunately the Pilot Race tires give you absolutely no warning before they go but they've worked for me as long as I stop using them at a certain point. On my SV that = 2 race weekends, no more. Anything else is flirting with a lowside. With that said, I don't think there is a better dual-purpose track day/street tire than the standard Pilot Power.

I really wish that Bridgestone would make a viable alternative in the 160 range instead of the BT-090. I always loved the 002 and liked the limited time I had on 003's but I'm not sold on the 090.

I'll be trying Dunlops next season unless Bridgestone changes something.

It made a difference in 07 because Michelin couldn't bring in tires all though the testing period so Rossi could dial his bike in.
07 showed that Michelin was winning because they could make tires, and overnight them unlike the other companies which had to have a more focus plan of attack.

shouldn't have but we know it did.



there's an endless debate about how much midnight special'ing there really was.  but it's clear that the '07 change caught michelin with their pants down.  whereas bridgestone had been making, calculated, steady advances each of the years prior.  they were in a good place in '07 (obviously), but the new tire rule had the effect of really shining a light on that development cycle vs. michelin's shotgun approach.

i'll try not to get all hyperbolic on you and just say: Get The Dunlops.

those new 211s are amazing.  they may cost more but when you factor in how long they last, the feel and predictability, and the lowside you'll probably avoid, they're damn near free.

that said, i have no clue if they make an N-Tec 160.

i didn't say it didn't. i said the rule shouldn't have had an effect.

the reality is that michelin screwed the pooch. big time. two years in a row.

fwiw, bridgestone could've done the same thing as michelin. but they chose not to.

Yeah I'm not sure if they make 211's in a 160 or not. I know for a fact that they make the 209's in my size. The price is about the same as a Michelin PRC front/ Med/soft rear combo so the only thing that really keeps me on Michelin is my supplier.

I was thinking about doing the same thing my Middleweight teammate does and run a 211 front/209 rear combo. He runs them for the durability and Dunlop contingency. Things that are important when you've got top 3 MW speed.

They do not.  You are stuck with the (non-NTec) 209, but it's still a great tire.

Hmmmm. Moto GP bikes on spec Cheng Shin tires. That'll be fun to watch.  [popcorn]

ok, this is just getting silly...

the possibility that frenchie stays and factory ducati, hayden and stoner, switch to michelin? jeeez.  [roll]

http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Sep/080927a.htm

So you're saying it's impossible to loose the front with Dunlops? 

Come on, go out on a limb here and now ;D

i've lost the front on this one really bumpy section a couple times.  but then caught it with my knee and kept going...  ;)

so far i've never lost the rear using these 211s.  ...and fwiw, N-Tec only applies to the rears. 

i lost the front on dunlops...

but i'm a hack and I coulda lowsided riding on velcro that day. ;D

but Joe did too  ???

on a Qualifier.

oh-fisshul:

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Grand+Prix+Commission+decides+on+single+tyre+rule+for+2009

also, michelin had robert jensen testing motogp slicks at laguna this weekend. i suppose that means they're gonna put in a bid.

so... it's a single supplier, not a control tire.

and they're movin' on this quick! proposals have to be submitted by this coming saturday, and they're supposed to test on them at the first test (the day after the last race of he season).

http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-last-minute-plans-backfire-fim-approves-single-tire-rule/

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34431

"Michelin is examining the opportunities offered by these new regulations and will make an announcement in the next few days as to whether or not the company will tender to supply tires to the premier-class championship"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71014

Jeremy Burgess:

"I'm against it, this is a prototype championship and you need as many prototype factors in it, driving it forward, as possible," he said.

"If it's dumbed down, we could very easily end up as a pseudo Superbike championship.

"We've essentially been one brand before, during the mid to late 90s when Michelin were the de-facto supplier, but there were tyres then that Mick Doohan was riding that not many others could ride. What we need is a one brand rule with choices."

Burgess also doubts that a single supplier will change which riders are contesting victory at the front.

"The cream will always ride to the top," he added. "We've seen this in Formula One, and indeed in 250cc with Dunlop. The racing will be entirely predictable in that the same four riders will be at the top, Valentino (Rossi), Casey (Stoner), (Dani) Pedrosa, and Jorge (Lorenzo).

"What I really want to know is the reason this has come about. Surely the most exciting racing at Motegi was the battle between Lorenzo and Pedrosa on two different brands."

Bridgestone has submitted their bid.  Michelin isn't going to.

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34541 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34541)
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34547 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34547)

wonder who'll get it.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Oct/081004g.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Oct/081004g.htm)

So now they will only get half the tire allocation and no custom rubber but "the riders will have to adapt"
The statement from Michelin says it all.
Jerry Burgess is absolutely correct in his observation.

I think this will be detrimental to the development of better tires.

Meh [roll], for whom, us plebes or the racers? When was the last time you rode on 16 inch hoops? ;D

Yesterday.  Paso 750 came with 16" rims.  I'd love some new ones.

Chevy, Ford and Dodge all race year round in Nascar and they still make shit cars, what's the difference?

There will still be plenty of development happening.  it's not like Bridgestone and Michelin are going to shut down their R&D programs because of this.

This extracted from Michelins press release (link in this thread)
"The radial tire, which was invented by Michelin, has been improved through racing, and the improvements have since been passed on to consumers. Michelin's dual compound technology for motorcycle tires was first tested in MotoGP racing and is today integrated into premium products for the brand's customers. The MotoGP Championship organizers have decided to use a single tire supplier for the coming seasons, which effectively eliminates the competitive environment that has led to so much progress."

I am old enough to remember the introduction of ‘sticky’ rubber in racing tyres (the Dunlop 398 compound), Dunlop took this and produced the TT100 road tyre. This was a direct result of their experience in racing tires. Also Dunlop developed the 'triangular' section tire, until then the only road rear tires available were square in section (Except for the Avon GP ).
The tires you use today are the direct result of experience gained in competition.

exactly!! NASCAR cars are spec'ed by the racing authority -- they can't innovate.  those cars are still using carburetors!  all of those cars regardless of manufacturer have to have teh same frame, similar output engine, wheel weight and so on -- there is no innovating at all. 

change nascar rules so each car team can do whatever they want to their car and THEN you'll have innovation.



amen to that. 

i got a set of 2CTs for my bike and the difference was like night and day.

I am also old eneough to remember when Bridgestone meant motorcycles not tires. I had one of their 350 disc valve two strokes it was a rocket.

So, are we to believe that without competition between tire manufacturers there will be no further innovation? 

Pirelli hasn't had any competition in WSBK and they've made amazing progress in their race tires over the last 3 years. 

Dunlop hasn't had any real competition in the AMA and they don't compete on a world level (in the same size/compounds used on production-based bikes), yet they still have developed the N-Tec and are beating the field worse than ever before.

Bridgestone owns GP and I wouldn't put a set of their street tires near my bike.

Oh, and since every rider (pretty much) in GP has different styles and prefers different tires, how do we know which ones are the ones that are influencing my street tires? 

besides, GP tire construction has very little to do with the tires we use on the street or track.

it's not as though michelin just suddenly gave up on motorcycles last week.



while i know that is true, i was still surprised recently to learn that even toni elias has (had) a special one of a kind front, made just for him.

Wow, Michelin wrote this? Shocking. :o

Of course they wrote this, nevertheless I still firmly believe that the 2CT for example would have come to us with or without MotoGP's involvement. ;)

interesting article.  asks some good questions about the series in general.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/170122-0/what_is_motogp?.html (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/170122-0/what_is_motogp?.html)

on the topic of tires:

If a new high performance motorcycle can be built by a major manufacturer without any MotoGP input, it is hard to see how road tyre development will grind to a halt now that open competition has been extinguished. Anyway, when was the last time a road rider popped out to buy a qualifying tyre?

iirc, the pilot power profile was based on hayden's 2003 tires.

dual- and multi-compound street tire construction is a direct result of racing needs. one of the more popular tracks requiring multi-compound tires is daytona. racers have been running dual- or triple- compound tires there as long as i can remember (at least since 1996).

Fair enough, but I stand by my point. MotoGP racing has little effect on civilian tire development.

you'll never see a motogp tire carcass on a street tire.  compound trickle down, sure maybe - sorta.  but i think we can all agree they work on compounds all the time regardless.

Yes, that may be true.  But to think that R&D will come to a halt and new developments won't be made is insane (not saying that you're saying this).  I really think the best example is Pirelli and how when they first became the tire supplier to WSBK, they were multiple seconds off record lap times at each track (that were set on Michelins before the switch) and now I'm pretty sure that the last Michelin lap record has fallen (sorry Neil) and much of that can be attributed to the tires that they've developed in WSBK, without any competition whatsoever.  Beyond that, the tires actually last a full race now, that wasn't the case a few years ago either.

I like a single tire rule because I do think it evens out the field more. However, I would like to see a rotational contract. Bridgestone one year, then Dunlop, then Michilin, so on and so forth. That way you preserve competition, allow innovation, and still balance the field.

that would be a nightmare for the technicians.  and the riders.

<announcer's voice>

Well, we've just wrapped a stupendous qualifying session for the first race of the year here in MotoGP!
As you likely know, this year Cheng Shin is the spec tire.

Ant West is on the pole.
All of the other riders fell before they could complete one lap.
The balance of the grid will be assigned by age.

Tune in for an exciting race tomorrow!

</announcer's voice>

 [laugh]