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Title: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on September 27, 2008, 05:45:01 AM Just read Capo's thread (sweet tank man - LOVE the paint job!).
A couple comments concerned me... 1. use of caswell coating is a must (I'm guessing a sealant? why not POR-15? are they THAT prone to leaks?) 2. Dragsterhunds tank 'failed'??!! like - fell appart at the seam?? for real? 3. The hinges are weak and prone to cracking? Ummm... ok. Since I plan to get a carbon tank in the near future - maybe - I'm guessing that I should have it sealed and reinforce the hinges with a couple extra layers of fabric and appoxy? What does the voice of experience say on this one? Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: TAftonomos on September 27, 2008, 07:28:38 AM Personally, I wouldn't spend the money for anything like that. A product as critical as a fuel tank shouldn't need to be sealed by the customer, it should come that way from the MFG. Handle it with kid gloves to protect the finish, ok, but be careful if you have gas in it and don't raise it if you do? That is just terrible. Think about if you go down? Even worse are the guys with the carbon tanks and magnesium clutch covers....can you say BBQ?
I believe fuel cell makes a tank with exposed carbon panels, so you can get the "look" while dropping the weight as well. Of course, if you are talking about a newer monster, I don't think their tank is done yet. Fuel cell's have come OFF the bike, bounced down the track, and been repaired/reused without ever leaking. Seems like the obvious choice to me. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Capo on September 27, 2008, 11:24:23 AM The DP CF tank appears to be a laminate of CF on Kevlar, the pic below shows this. Note that at the bottom (right where the hinge plate would be) is just carbon fibre.
The hinge is pretty substantial and is shown in the second pic. (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/P1000323.jpg) (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/P1000327.jpg) I got my tank for free from Ducati, I had a warranty issue with the steel tank (18 months out of warranty) and they replaced it with a CF at no charge. I love Ducati [clap] Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: moto on September 27, 2008, 10:39:32 PM Don't know why anyone would favor a ETI kevlar tank over a pre-preg CF tank made by CM Composite.
I've used both and seen many crashed ones. Usually the ETI looks worse than the pre-preg CF ones. The kevlar liner acts like a bladder in both cases but the external shell on the ETI is usually in much worse condition. ETI does a good job fixing them though- which is a very good thing. Steel tanks aren't perfect either--they can burst at the folded lower seam and do not tank much a of a hit before they dent (monste rowners know this). The CF tanks will take a much bigger hit before you see any visual damage. My CM CF tank was dropped off a lift. The bike hit a support post on the way down and it only left a small finger nail crack in the outer layer. I would avoid the wet lay tanks with gooey sealant inside like the QB Carbon tanks--those are the types that break into pieces when they crash hard And as for leaks: when the USA went to hire concentrations of ethanol in their fuel, it forced many composite tank MFG to switch resins. CM was a little slow to do this. We had to coat their tanks to protect them. Doesn't mean they are the only ones that leak though. My ETI composite 1098 tank leaked and ruined the paint job. They fixed the leak for free, but I had to pay for a new paint job. ETI blamed it on my painter-said it was sanded too deep. I really doubt that. One would have to sand a lot--and experienced painters don't do that. (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Motowheelscom/Motowheels%201098/P1010373.jpg) (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Motowheelscom/Motowheels%201098/P1010367.jpg) We sealed it after he painted it just in case: (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Motowheelscom/Motowheels%201098/DSC00897.jpg) -M Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducpainter on September 28, 2008, 03:56:18 AM I'm staying out of this fray.
I have opinions of course and will be glad to share them via pm. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Smokescreen on September 28, 2008, 06:18:53 PM We have a 95 M900 with DP tank that's been through two ruptures, once from dropping a tailgate on it (long story) and once from a 35MPH lowside. Both times repaired by ETI, the guy who makes the fuel cells mentioned earlier in this thread. Other than when it was damaged, the DP fuel tank has never leaked, and despite a rather violent lowside that cracked the tank up, the hinge never budged.
So.... In short, in I don't know how many years, but minimum 5 years, and two crashes, our DP tank has never had issue. Except.... The overflow tube just runs to ground, and pretty much sprays the rear tyre when the tank is overfilled causing spin up when you leave gas stations. Otherwise, it's great! There you go, some ACTUAL personal experience with a DP tank. and just like most stories about Ducatis, it's not as bad as you heard. HOWEVER, for the same price, you can get an ETI fuel cell with CF panels that looks just as good and has much better customer support. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on September 29, 2008, 07:48:36 AM Thanks for the reply's folks - varied oppinions are always appreciated. [thumbsup]
Moto - what did you use to seal the tanks? If it's something that only experienced hands should play with - then who would you recommend? Ducpainter - pm sent (I'm morbidly curious). Epi. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: moto on September 29, 2008, 08:41:12 AM Thanks for the reply's folks - varied oppinions are always appreciated. [thumbsup] Moto - what did you use to seal the tanks? If it's something that only experienced hands should play with - then who would you recommend? Ducpainter - pm sent (I'm morbidly curious). Epi. We used POR15 on both the CM and ETI tanks. It is easy to do yourself. -M Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducducgooseme on September 29, 2008, 01:25:02 PM POR15 is good, but softer than caswell coatings.
Dont be too dismayed by the negative comments about carbon. I have had mine for years and love it. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Munch on September 29, 2008, 03:13:33 PM I have had mine for years and love it. You say that about that rash too! [evil] I have to second the Caswell Coating process. No issues thus far on mine... Easy enough to do yourself - if you can follow directions... Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducducgooseme on September 30, 2008, 07:46:40 AM They are red bumps, not a rash, damn it!
Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Smokescreen on September 30, 2008, 09:49:34 AM When I finally send MonsterGrrl's DP tank in for a respray, maybe I'll try that coating as well. She's never leaked, but like any Ducati part, you can't be too careful.
Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on September 30, 2008, 12:53:20 PM I still haven't made up my mind on this one... all good points for and against. I'll have to sleep on it before I decide I guess. But, the look of a carbon tank with a guilded checker-board stripe and a matching CF solo-seat, beer-tray and front fender... that just looks damn yummy in my mind... decisions decisions.
Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 17, 2008, 10:21:01 AM I can almost sense ducpainter rolling his eyes...
Reason and logic were successfully foiled again, and I bought a used CF fuel tank [evil]. ISSUE 1: While it doesn’t have a scratch on it, it does leak - alot. Specifically, it appears that the hinge was offset at manufacturing which put pressure on adjacent seam, cracking it. The hinge pealed off easier than my fork reflectors… which is a good thing, since it allows me to seal the leak and affix the hinge square to the tank. And a bad thing, since it doesn't leave me with much confidence. I’m considering reinforcing the hinge area with a couple additional layers of CF. For reference, here’s my research regarding the use of CF and epoxy resins, and a couple places I can order the materials from. http://www.westsystem.com/ (http://www.westsystem.com/) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbonqa.htm (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbonqa.htm) www.spt-tech.com (http://www.spt-tech.com) http://www.shopmaninc.com/carbonpage.html (http://www.shopmaninc.com/carbonpage.html) http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/carbon-fiber-motorcycle-parts/ (http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/carbon-fiber-motorcycle-parts/) http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=q_fKlDzemPY&feature=related (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=q_fKlDzemPY&feature=related) I would very much like to know how others have fixed leaks/hinge issues of this nature. I’m also curious to know what kind of ‘glue’ Ducati uses to seal the two halves of these tanks. ISSUE 2: I’m not entirely convinced that this tank will be compatible with my Monster. I have a 2006 S2R, which has the plastic tank with the large, bolt-on fuel pump/filter mechanism on the underside. The CF tank, on the other hand, is identical to the pictures Capo posted earlier in this thread. Unlike my plastic tank, the CF tank uses separate internal fuel pump and filter systems mounted to brackets in the top half of the tank. My understanding is that while FI tanks are ‘backwards compatible’, going the other direction can be a serious PITA. So, I need to know from the experienced among us: will this work with my bike? What about the hinge – will I need to mount a different hinge to the tank? Other fitment issues I should be aware of? What about the fuel sensor, will it work with my gauge? ISSUE 3: What parts do I need? Presuming that this tank will eventually hold gas, that the internals will work with my bike, that I can securely and squarely mount a hinge, and there are no other insurmountable fitment issues… does anyone know what part number’s I’m looking for regarding the internals of this tank? Specifically the filter, pump and fuel level sensor? Aside from a quart of tank sealant, (and the patience of Job), is there anything else this project would require? (time to start hunting eBay again) <sigh> this is going to be a very involved winter project… but, it could be worse... at least I don’t have ‘bumps’. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducpainter on October 17, 2008, 10:25:49 AM You need the frame bracket for a steel tank...a pump...a fuel sender, and a filter.
I also believe the bung for the cap is needed. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 17, 2008, 10:44:36 AM Thanks Nate [thumbsup]
And yes, the bung for the cap is also needed (figures). Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducpainter on October 17, 2008, 10:49:36 AM Thanks Nate [thumbsup] You should be able to sell your plastic tank items for enough to easily cover the costs..And yes, the bung for the cap is also needed (figures). Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 17, 2008, 01:06:55 PM True – selling my existing tank/parts would cover the costs… but unfortunately, there are a couple hurdles preventing me from doing that right away. First, I’d miss out on the last couple weeks of riding season… not going to happen. Second, I was recently forced to sell the house (long story), and the apartment I’m living in now doesn’t allow vehicle maintenance on the property… so, once I have all the parts together, and returned from the painter <cough>; then I can rent a garage for a week, swap out the parts, and start my own eBay flee market.
I’m totally in love with the 3-tone job you did on Strati’s CF tank! http://www.frostysfinishes.com/strati.html I’m thinking gold instead of red, and a 1/8 inch gap between the black centre line and the gold pinstripe; and carry the black & gold stripe over the CF part of the solo seat and beer tray. I also bought a used set of forks last year which I intend to get anodized and loaded with Matris internals (Jason at the DoS). I picked up a really cool CF front fender, and (as you know) a used CF tank. I still need to save up for a solo seat, tail section, steering damper, TPO air intake, Power Commander, new front wheel rim (I’m using an old one that has a nasty crack), and floating disks (mine warped), as well as a front break line. Basically, I did what I could to just get her back on the road after the accident in 2006 – but it was all patch work… now, I intend to take my time and do it right. No more ghetto paint jobs so to speak. I should have all the CF bits assembled and ready for paint by the summer/fall. The forks should be ready by the late fall… really, this is a 2 year plan… but, it keeps me busy, so it’s all good. After it’s all assembled, I plan to take it to BCM for a really good tune. Back to the here and now – I’m thinking I can swap the cap assembly from my existing plastic tank. Also, I found a couple different tank hinges on eBay – I’ll go home tonight to measure out the frame and tank to see which one will fit my needs. Later, and thanks again for your advice, it's greatly appreciated. Epi Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: weemonster on October 17, 2008, 03:08:39 PM That apartment building sounds like hell.
<puts pedantic hat on> Changing the tank for a c/f one isnt maintenance its a Modification. will your neighbours rat you out? Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 18, 2008, 07:22:00 AM worse... they have video cameras everywhere. Good in that I feel my bike is secure, bad in that I feel like I'm being watched all the time.
I may just ask if I can bring the bike up to the apartment over the winter... I doubt that they will agree, but it can't hurt to ask. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 20, 2008, 12:02:38 PM Can someone please confirm that this fuel level sensor will work?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Fuel-Level-Sensor-Ducati-748-996-998-Monster-Supersport_W0QQitemZ190260828611QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190260828611&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Fuel-Level-Sensor-Ducati-748-996-998-Monster-Supersport_W0QQitemZ190260828611QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190260828611&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) Thanks! Epi Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Capo on October 20, 2008, 11:38:35 PM Can someone please confirm that this fuel level sensor will work? http://cgi.ebay.ca/Fuel-Level-Sensor-Ducati-748-996-998-Monster-Supersport_W0QQitemZ190260828611QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190260828611&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Fuel-Level-Sensor-Ducati-748-996-998-Monster-Supersport_W0QQitemZ190260828611QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190260828611&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) Thanks! Epi It looks as tho it will fit (with regard to the size), however it looks slighly different to the one on my S4R, you could have issues with where the low fuel light comes on (but we all have that). (http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/P1000694-3.jpg) Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 23, 2008, 07:08:52 AM Thanks for the feedback Capo - much appreciated [thumbsup]
For some reason, my gut is against bidding for that part. It doesn't look exactly like 592.1.015.2a and a bit pricy for a used fuel level sensor. Then again, the best price I've found so far for a new one is $205. I think I'll just keep scowering eBay and bumping my WTB post... I'm in no rush. The Caswell 2-part epoxy tank sealer arrived yesterday. So, I'll be able to give it a couple coats this weekend. The instructions call for tossing in some acetone and drywall screws and giving it a good shake to clean it out and rough up the surface. That makes me nervous since I thought that acetone would pretty much eat through the CF epoxy... leaving me with a shapeless CF bag. I'm thinking dish soap and warm water would do a fine job without risking damaging the tank. Thanks again for your help! Epi Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Capo on October 23, 2008, 07:36:07 AM I think that that caswell instruction is for a steel tank. I'd call them before using the acetone.
Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: ducpainter on October 23, 2008, 08:05:12 AM acetone won't melt epoxy.
that said you need to do something about the dried fuel and residues in the tank. this is why I like the POR process better. Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 23, 2008, 12:47:07 PM Projects like this remind me just how obsessive/compulsive (and cheap) I can be… [bang]
the POR-15 might not be as ‘hard’ as the Caswell… but it’s easier to apply… lesson learned. Right – first task is to remove the residue from the tank. Got it. Acetone won’t harm the tank… that's comforting - thanks! Oddly enough, I re-read the instructions that came with the Caswell kit, and the only metal-tank-specific instructions was to use lye to clean out the tank, and vinegar to neutralize the lye. The acetone/drywall-screws thing was universal to all tank types - evidently, I’ll be making the world’s biggest maraca tonight. Ole! and gracias! [thumbsup] Title: Re: DP Carbon Fuel Tank... issues? Post by: Episteme on October 23, 2008, 01:44:47 PM Here are the Caswell instructions... for reference.
Quote GAS TANK SEALER Application Instructions This applies to both metal and fiberglass tanks. Preparation 1. All traces of oil and gasoline should first be removed by pouring about 1 pint of acetone or lacquer thinner into the tank, and rotating the tank several times to thoroughly sluice the sides with solvent. Dispose of the contaminated solution. Allow to dry. 2.Rinse the tank with Dawn Dish Soap and Hot Water. Rinse and allow to thoroughly dry. 3.ADDITIONAL STEP FOR ALUMINUM TANKS: Add two tablespoons of LYE (Drano) to one gallon of water. ADD LYE TO WATER, NOT WATER TO LYE. WEAR PROTECTIVE GEAR. Slosh the solution around in the tank for 30 seconds. Pour solution out and dispose. Rinse with water and pour off. Add 80z of vinegar into a quart of water and slosh around in tank for 30 seconds. This neutralizes the lye. Pour off and rinse with water. Allow to dry. 4. Place a hand full of drywall screws with about a pint of acetone or lacquer thinner into the tank and shake them around vigorously for several minutes. These will dislodge any loose particles of rust, and in the case of plastic/fiberglass, rough up the surface. Dispose of the contaminated solution. Allow to dry. 5. Apply duct tape or masking tape to any weeping seams, holes or porous areas. This will stop any Gas Tank Sealer from oozing out, and will allow it to bridge over the hole. Plug the outlet ports with putty or Play-Doh. 6. If the tank has a good paint job, protect it from resin spillage by wrapping in a layer of GLADWRAP, then a layer of ALUMINUM FOIL, then another layer of GLADWRAP. Mixing ratio is 2 parts of A: 1 part B. Gas Tank Sealer resins should be at room temperature. Colder than 65 OF will make resin thick and not flow well, hotter than 85 OF will make in runny, so it doesn't stick to the sides well, and it will cure too quickly. Mix up the required amount of Gas Tank Sealer (one unit should treat UP TO two x five gallon tanks, this will depend entirely on the total surface area) There is NO relationship of volume to surface area, ie: Tank: 12"x 12"x12" = 7.48 gals = 864 sq inches Tank: 12" x 144" x 1" = 7.48 gals = 2040 sq inches If you are only treating ONE 5 gal (or smaller) tank, then divide parts A & B in half. You could use a dipstick to gauge this. DO NOT mix anything less than HALF UNITS! You may apply a second application within 24 hours if you want to use up the resin. This is, of course, good insurance on a bad tank, or one with many baffles etc. In a separate plastic container (margarine tube etc.) mix the two parts together thoroughly for at least 2 minutes. Scrape around the sides to ensure all resin is blended together. 1. Pour into the tank, then immediately seal up the filler hole with GLADWRAP and an elastic band. Swill the tank around in every direction for several minutes to obtain a good layer of Gas Tank Sealer over all surfaces. Remove the filler cap, GLADWRAP seal, and pour out any excess. Allow to drain upside down for a few minutes. 2.If you have a built in fuel filter, blow air into the fuel line port for about 10 minutes. This will clear the filter of any Gas Tank Sealer. 3.Trim up any excess material as soon as the Gas Tank Sealer becomes plastic like. This can be scraped out with a sharp knife at this point (usually about 40-60 Min after mixing) Place the tank in a warm 70-90 degrees F place and allow to cure for 24-36 hours before putting gasoline in the tank. 4.If you want, or need to apply a second coat, you must do so while the first coat is still tacky (usually within 24 hours) 5.If you can elevate the temperature of the tank to 140 degrees F for 4 hours, this will 'post cure' the resin and the tank may be put into immediate service. |