Hey all.
When designing something I always hit a snag in the road, I cannot get the right spatial reference points when trying to sketch it in 3d. When I try to do angles any more complex than 90 degrees it all goes to hell. I can see the object in my head, and build it by guesswork, but I would like to start doing the math ahead of time to speed up the process, and waste less material. I cant understand what I'm doing wrong.
Any tips, tricks..... halp?
Is this a technological problem like you don't know how to work a program or a mental/ psychological problem where you have trouble thinking in 3D?
I think Google had a free version of sketchup that you could use to help you along the way. Dunno how good it is though. I think in 3D pretty well. I kind of imagine it like layers. Comes from reading plans and having to interpolate what happens between floors where walls don't line up vertically.
QuoteIs this a technological problem like you don't know how to work a program or a mental/ psychological problem where you have trouble thinking in 3D?
Its taking the 3d image from my brain and putting it to paper. For some reason my eyes cannot pick out spatial reference points, I know how things should go.... but my hand wont draw what by brain is telling it to. If I pick up the medium though, it all comes together....
It like I look at the paper and my brain goes "draw two perpendicular lines at 66 degrees 2 inches." and my hand goes
"ding, fries are done"
some people just see things as flat.
I took an art class once where one of the guys drew everything as flat. The instructor tried everything to help the guy, but it was like his brain would not let him put it down on paper that way.
I watched a show about DaVinci where they said he practiced drawing cloth, as a way of building 3d skills.
Are you drawing a ghost box to frame your design? It can help a lot to have a ghost box that tells you where the faces of your object are so you can reference points in space. Obliques are pretty easy to get a hang of draw as long as you're consistent and accurate. Grab a 30/60 triangle and draw lots of construction lines.
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 14, 2008, 02:12:35 PM
Are you drawing a ghost box to frame your design? It can help a lot to have a ghost box that tells you where the faces of your object are so you can reference points in space. Obliques are pretty easy to get a hang of draw as long as you're consistent and accurate. Grab a 30/60 triangle and draw lots of construction lines.
How does this work?
Quote
some people just see things as flat.
I took an art class once where one of the guys drew everything as flat. The instructor tried everything to help the guy, but it was like his brain would not let him put it down on paper that way.
I watched a show about DaVinci where they said he practiced drawing cloth, as a way of building 3d skills.
Organic objects I have no problem with, its hard lines and angles....
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 14, 2008, 02:12:35 PM
Are you drawing a ghost box to frame your design? It can help a lot to have a ghost box that tells you where the faces of your object are so you can reference points in space. Obliques are pretty easy to get a hang of draw as long as you're consistent and accurate. Grab a 30/60 triangle and draw lots of construction lines.
+1
what i was gonna say, but with dumberer words
:P
trick to engineering drawing: lots and lots of construction lines.
do it in ACAD and use the basic construction line rules and everything will fall into place
+1 to what bobspapa said.
some poeple have a hard time putting what they see in their head on paper.
if you dont have the brain power to see it on a piece of paper, then you probably never will.
if you jsut need the skill to make it look right. then might i suggest you practice drawing human models.
yes, most of the times they are nude. having to draw body motions in quick 10 second poses, to 5 minute poses, forces yuor hand to draw what your eye percieves, and youll start to develop the hand and eye coordination. When you want to draw your thoughts, just close your eyes and pretend your looking at it.
or you can just autocadd it. :P but thats pretty hard too if you dont know how to use it. Have you tried google sketch? free and easy to use.
what ash said works really well for isometric drawings. but your image gets VERY distorted becasue its not in perspective view.
you can also make perspective lines to help draw it, but your better of taking a class in that since perspective is a very tricky thing to draw. Might i suggest you purchase a book on perspective drawing. I have a bunch of books by a guy named Ching who makes various drawing books (mostly in the field of engineering and architecture).
edit: you said hard lines and angles. take a class in archteictureal drawing. then beat yourself in the foot for taking it. and your skills will improve dramatically. Or buy that book i told you to get. I have a copy i no longer need.
http://www.amazon.com/Design-Drawing-Francis-D-Ching/dp/0471286540/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224019313&sr=1-6
good book. Ching = good guy too.
try not looking for the hard lines...but focus on the variation in shading
Quote from: bobspapa on October 14, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
try not looking for the hard lines...but focus on the variation in shading
Im designing furniture. Lots of hard angles on that. It kinda needs to be correct, so I can tell if it matches the other furniture/ Danielle can tell me if she likes it or not.
With a 3D CAD program you could model it in no time. ;)
Quote from: Speedbag on October 14, 2008, 02:29:20 PM
With a 3D CAD program you could model it in no time. ;)
but that kills the artistic appraoch of it!
The 3 big forms of art once were Painting, Sculpture and Architecture. That last one has eroded because of AutoCAD. They teach drafting by hand in school, but no one does much of that anymore.
get the ching book!
Quote from: TiAvenger on October 14, 2008, 02:16:40 PM
How does this work?
Sorry, I got my drawing types named wrong. obliques look straight at the face of the object and off to the side slightly. Here's a basic summary. http://www.ider.herts.ac.uk/school/courseware/graphics/oblique.html (http://www.ider.herts.ac.uk/school/courseware/graphics/oblique.html) The gist is that you draw the face normally but all of the 3rd dimension is at a 45' angle. Your image will look distorted unless you "foreshorten" the 3rd dimension or in other words, draw it half as long as it's supposed to be. Start by drawing out a box representing each face of your object and then make cutouts of that box for the indents of your object.
Isometrics are the next step up in 3D drawing. Keep clicking "next page" on that link and it'll go over isometrics and whatnot. Hope it helps.
Ching is the architectural drawing god!!! [thumbsup]
FWIW, I still draw most of my designs free hand. ACAD is way too cold and mechanical, it has no soul.
Quote from: He Man on October 14, 2008, 02:31:23 PM
but that kills the artistic appraoch of it!
The 3 big forms of art once were Painting, Sculpture and Architecture. That last one has eroded because of AutoCAD. They teach drafting by hand in school, but no one does much of that anymore.
get the ching book!
I remember this last year a kid in my shop class brought me some drawings that didn't make any sense so I started drawing an oblique of his design and had him walk me through it. It confused me how amazed he was as I drawing it. ??? I'm 24 and I'm still old enough to have learned to draft by hand. I suck at perspectives but I'm better than your average Joe. The little pencil twist as I draw a line comes as 2nd nature too. I sometimes do it on accident with my pen and it trips out the pen and gives me a crappy line. [roll]
Oh yeah, don't forget to show the class your end result. ;D
Quote from: DesmoDiva on October 14, 2008, 02:46:04 PM
Ching is the architectural drawing god!!! [thumbsup]
FWIW, I still draw most of my designs free hand. ACAD is way too cold and mechanical, it has no soul.
Wait a minute, are you an architecture monkey too?
+1 on Ching.
I jokingly call him Frank now. When we had a question when studying for the ARE, we'd refer to his Dictionary of Architecture (or something) and say "Ask Frank!".
Anyone know of a picture hosting site that doesnt require all your info, unlike photobucket?
might try tinypic.com but i'm not sure since I've never used them.
not sure how this is going to turn out..... but prelim drawings
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2943257848_0b51c53262_b.jpg)
Obviously this is in 2d... I cant (dont know the math) figure out how to draw the interior legs to scale because of the angles.
Also Im a bit confused on the scale/angles on the bottom view.
Its been almost 8 years since I flunked trig, and almost 10 for geometry (A [laugh]) so i cant remember all the formulas and tricks :-\
Quote from: Fresh Pants on October 14, 2008, 05:02:21 PM
Wait a minute, are you an architecture monkey too?
Yup, both my hubby and I are. :P
Ti,
PM me and I'll walk you through the math.
Quote from: somebastid on October 14, 2008, 05:35:24 PM
Ti,
PM me and I'll walk you through the math.
will do thanks, getting kicked off so the missus can do homework...(shes the smart one) [laugh]
I use Google SketchUp sometimes when I design simple projects. I understand the basics of 3d better than most of the people I know, but I'm by no means an expert. That program is free and I found it pretty easy to learn to use. There are plenty of pre done designs on their data base to play with. I'm currently try to design a house out of shipping containers. Kind of a hobby I guess. It might help you if you where to play around in it for a bit. As cheesy as it's gonna sound practice is the best way to get better at something. Start with just a box, then add another and so on. Drawing out that plan you have there in 3d to scale would be hard for most people let alone someone struggling with the basics.
http://sketchup.google.com/ (http://sketchup.google.com/)
The statement above comes from someone that isn't a professional doodler/designer person.
So I came home from work and was trying to fab up a quick 3D drawing for you but I'm getting confused as to how a shelf attaches to the bottom.
...And what's with the funny scale? [roll]
Was bored and figured I'd screw around a little bit with this in Solidworks. Wasn't sure what was going on in the middle (can you make a 3D image so I can see better? [laugh]) - Just kidding.
I'm an engineer by trade, but an artist at heart ( and nothing says an artist can't use technology!)
edit - the woodgrain doesn't look as good as it could. but it's late and I'm lazy.....
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq282/Laich528/DMFTable.jpg)
Quote from: He Man on October 14, 2008, 02:31:23 PM
but that kills the artistic appraoch of it!
I'd like to challenge this a bit. when flemish artist developed oil paints the reaction was the same, but because of all the added nuances of oil over tempura the latter became obsolete. technology has fed artist since forever. I agree that drawing is a fundamental in addition to being a respected discipline don't get me wrong, but a tool is a tool is a tool anything that can help to finish a piece of whatever is a part of the process, and in my mind unless it's about the process, beg borrow steal. On to the topic, I'm a sculptor that loathes to draw, my sketchbook looks like a 5 year old has been working in it. If i'm working through a piece of whatever in my head and can't see a detail I'll build a model. Usually it's out of a smaller lighter cheaper material. sometimes, in my end of the spectrum, the models are just as interesting as the finished work
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 14, 2008, 07:52:17 PM
So I came home from work and was trying to fab up a quick 3D drawing for you but I'm getting confused as to how a shelf attaches to the bottom.
...And what's with the funny scale? [roll]
[laugh] Is there a standard scale I should be using.
laich528 has it right, minus the interior part. Its basically 2 diagonal x's intersecting at the center.
Quote from: TiAvenger on October 15, 2008, 07:05:39 AM
Its basically 2 diagonal x's intersecting at the center.
Ah, I see it now. Guess I was more tired than I though last night...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthographic_projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthographic_projection)
If I'm understanding the intent correctly then the bottom view is about correct minus how you're planning on attaching the center cross members to the base structure and how they attach to each other in the center. If the crossmembers are angle cut to sit flat on the bottom board and to each other then you'd need to know the cut angle and resultant hypotenuse length of the cut, temporarily sketch that as a line in the bottom view to establish a "footprint" (rectangle) on the bottom board and meeting point in the middle then project the corners of the footprints up to the front view. In the front view you'd see three edges of each cross member; the "width" as seen in the front view is actually the hypotenuse from one corner of the footprints rectangle to the other.
Clear as mud?
Quote from: Drjones on October 15, 2008, 05:52:57 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthographic_projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthographic_projection)
If I'm understanding the intent correctly then the bottom view is about correct minus how you're planning on attaching the center cross members to the base structure and how they attach to each other in the center. If the crossmembers are angle cut to sit flat on the bottom board and to each other then you'd need to know the cut angle and resultant hypotenuse length of the cut, temporarily sketch that as a line in the bottom view to establish a "footprint" (rectangle) on the bottom board and meeting point in the middle then project the corners of the footprints up to the front view. In the front view you'd see three edges of each cross member; the "width" as seen in the front view is actually the hypotenuse from one corner of the footprints rectangle to the other.
Clear as mud?
actually almost exact [thumbsup]
[laugh]
I was looking at it earilier today, and thought to myself, "Damn, this is going to take some trig."
I flunked horribly in highschool, I've been trying to work some simple problems this afternoon, but about an hour in I realized that my drawing in isometric scale doesn't have right triangles and so the numbers were all wrong....
Ive torn up about 10 sketches so far [laugh]
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2946327596_fde4958950_b.jpg)
getting a little better. ;D
ahh its a blackhole to doom!!!!! ;D
get rid of the graph paper. maybe thats whats messing you up. Go buy a roll of vellum and draw on that. much nicer paper.
It looks like you have a hard time with the angles like you said. One of the first things i did when i first started drawing isometrics, is to draw a plan and a elevation drawing. plan on top, elevation on bottom, and then draw guide lines from the top to the bottom, and from the right to the left. Where the guide lines meet is where that point will be.
Another thing to note is, nothing ever looks completely right in isometric in real life the line further away is always shorter to the eye. So dont be confused when it looks stretched.
I drew an oblique of your stand, want me to upload it once i get home tonight?
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 16, 2008, 09:09:07 AM
I drew an oblique of your stand, want me to upload it once i get home tonight?
Sure that would be great [thumbsup]
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/erkishhorde/dresser.jpg)
My shading got pretty much lost in the scan but oh well. I went w/ square legs instead of rectangle and inset the sides of the drawers a bit to give the face a bit of variation. Since your original orthographic wasn't consistent I opted to use dowels since they're easier to draw. [cheeky] I'll let you figure out have to join the dowels though. [roll] Oh, there's an extra line on one of the braces. I was tired. [roll]