Ducati Monster Forum

We're in the process of selling both of our cars and downsizing so we can save for a house.  With that in mind, I've been tossing around the idea of buying a car that would still be fun to drive.  2 cars that I've been looking at are an older GTI or a BMW 2002 (max of $3K - $4K).  BB, this is where you come in -> I've found a nice looking GTI on Craiglist: http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/cto/884683629.html  What do you think?  Then once my car is sold, we'll be selling her Passat and getting something for her...

Oh and anyone interested in purchasing a 2002 Honda Accord SE Coupe?  :)  KBB is $9k... will create it's own thread soon...

Muchos thank you and hope everyone is out riding like they stole it!!
m

You could not pay me to drive a older GTI on a daily basis, I had one the damn thing would not run for 2 seconds without breaking down it was an electrical nightmare.  It was fun while it was running but when it didn't (which was quite often) it made me want to pitch it off of a cliff  [bang]  I know I may have gotten  the bad seed but everyone I have known with an older VW has had some very annoying issues that have come with them.

But that is just my humble opinion.

Hmm, my '86 GTI (MkII) hasn't given me any electrical trouble.  Actually, most of my friends with MkIIs haven't had electrical problems.  They're so bloody simple...

The MkIII (1993-1998) is a little more problematic.  The early MkIVs I won't touch with a ten-foot pole. :P  MkVs I don't know anything about, other than the fact I don't like heavy newer cars with all the electrical "doing the thinking for you" electronic garbage.

As for that MkI Rabbit GTI on Craigslist... you better grab it quick, 'cause I'm tempted to go get it myself.  [evil]

In all seriousness, if it's clean and straight, then it'd be a worthy consideration.  Things to look for:

--Rust under the battery, around the door latch posts, around the windshield wiper pivots.
--Rusted out floorpans under the passenger compartment (this is a concern with all older VWs, Porsches, BMWs)
--Check the seat tilt-forward hinge mechanism for rust or breakage.
--Seat bolsters tend to get worn out if it has the sport seats
--Check seat bolster cloth/vinyl for wear, tears
--Does it have a sunroof, and is it factory?  If not factory, does it leak?
--Condition of the exhaust: is it rotting out? Is the cat still good?
--Does it pass DEQ?  I know you don't have to pass it out there in Bend, but it's still a sign of general engine health

112k miles is nothing to be afraid of in an older GTI.  If it's had regular oil changes and coolant flushes, it's good for another 50k-60k before you'll want to have the transmission looked at (the "self-machining" differentials tend to grenade around 170k).

Seriously... if I didn't have a project MkII and a trackbike, I'd go look at this one for myself.

If you come over to this side of the mtns to take a look at it, and you want someone who's been around older VeeDubs, you're welcome to PM me and we can try to schedule a time to see it when I can tag along.

One concern: while these aren't unreliable, it is a nearly 25 year old car, and as such will need the appropriate care and feeding.  It's not a car you can just turn on/off and forget about.  Kinda like a Ducati in that way.  If you want something a little easier to maintain (read: better as a daily driver), I'd recommend a MkIII Golf with the 2.0L 4-cyl 5-spd, and get one with manual windows/doorlocks/etc (fewer electrical options to go south).  Buy the FK High Sport kit (suspension) for it, and you have a fun little car that gets 30 mpg, and it's daily-driver reliable.  My brother has a '95 that's served him very well for the past couple years.

Muchos thank you my friend!!  First things first, need to sell my Honda.  I will definately keep you in mind if/when we head over for said vehicle purchase... :)  I'm a researcher, did the same thing prior to buying Cara, and your info helps A LOT!!! 

m

I raced (autocross) and drove daily the same 84 GTI.  Awesome car.  Age, yes.  But an interesting photo, the beetle in the garage tells me this car was taken care of.

It has some goodies on it worth saving, Neuspeed is the best!

Also look for stress cracks around the strut towers and front clip, cracked paint it a good tip off.

Like BB, if I didn't have.....I would BUY IT NOW!!!

I forgot about the stress cracks around the strut towers... open hood, look at the tops of the strut towers, and look for a big circular crack that wraps around the top of the strut tower.  I think my '86 GTI's chassis is suffering from this... not sure what the solution is yet, but I'm pretty sure it won't be easy or cheap.  Best option is probably to replace the strut tower tops with a camber plate setup.  But I digress...

I agree with Mike's observation about the neat Beetle in the garage.  Forgot to mention that, but it was something I made a mental note of when looking at the Craigslist ad.  This owner is probably an enthusiast, and as such this car has probably been better cared for than your run-of-the-mill beater.  $3k is also a fairly high price for a MkI... I'd guess either it's junk and he/she is high, or they've got a nice example and they know it.  If it's as nice as it looks and they know it, there prolly won't be much (if any) bargaining room.

Other things I have remembered since last night: sensors.  Specifically: coolant temp sensor/sender, rad fan switch, O2 sensor (if so equipped), oil pressure sender, oil temp sensor (if so equipped).  I may be forgetting one or two.  Basically, there are a couple of sensors where the coolant hose connects to the head, and one or more down on the oil cooler, then the rad fan switch which is usually on the radiator itself (dunno about the MkI GTI specifically... different radiator than my MkII).  These need replaced based on age, not mileage.  The plastic inserts in them get old and brittle, and when they let go, it makes a mess.  They're not expensive, and they're pretty easy to replace too.  If they haven't been replaced in the last 5 years, I'd buy all of 'em, and take a Saturday to change them all out.  Shouldn't cost more than $50-$75 to buy the whole lot of 'em (those sensors/senders/switches are usually $10-$15 each).

You would also want to inspect coolant hoses.  The upper rad hose is easy enough to see and replace, so the more telling sign of the prior owner's care will be in the little hoses down near the water pump.  On the MkII, they're the ones going from the water pump to the oil cooler (which is an aluminum box above the oil filter).  Mike is probably a better source of knowledge on these, as I haven't owned a MkI.  However, they're similar enough that I could look under the hood of a MkI and point out the equivalent components.

If all this "MkI" "MkII" nomenclature is confusing...

U.S. nomenclature and timeline for the Golf (Jetta was similar, but may differ +/- 1 model year):
MkI is the Rabbit.  1970's-1984
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/noxlovexhere/DSC00044-1.jpg)

MkII is the Golf.  1985-1992
(http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9147.jpg) (http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9147.jpg)

MkIII: 1993-1998 (and early '99)
(http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9174.jpg) (http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9174.jpg)

MkIV: 1999.5-2005
(http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9298.jpg) (http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9298.jpg)

MkV: 2006-present
(http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9403.jpg) (http://www.benlevy.com/auto/show/tref06/img_9403.jpg)

BB, check your PM ... :)

I should know today about the GTI.  If all goes well, then I might be up in PDX soon...  :)

Thank you for all the info! 
m

You really gonna sell that CB for $200?

Sure... it's what we paid for it.  Don't have to sell it but if someone would make use of it and would enjoy it, works for us...  Only problem, we're in Bend... :)

Btw, no go on the GTI, at least not yet... :(  Everything happens for a reason...

Send me the details.  We have a place in Black Butte. Will probably be there in November. Could make for a fun Winter project.

Here I am threadjacking my own thread... LOL

Ok, it's a 1978 Honda CB400A (yes it's a Hondamatic).  Paid $200 for it, thought it would be a good project (and it would) but priorities are stepping in (wedding, house, kids, etc...).  Every little bit counts and stuff... :)  It's not currently running but the engine DOES turn over (it's a kicker).  My plan was to tear it down to the frame, repaint, rebuild and turn into a fun lil cafe for riding around town.  We haven't changed into our name yet.  I believe the last time it was titled was in WA state (have the plate). 

Here's some pics...

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00201.jpg)

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00202.jpg)

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00208.jpg)

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00205.jpg)

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00206.jpg)

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/The%20CB/DSC00209.jpg)

Sorry Marv, meant to call you yesterday... work's been busy.  I'll try to call when I leave work today.  Even if the MkI is a no-go... we can formulate a plan for other potential vehicles.

Hey BB -  In case you missed this in the other section of the board... here is that article we were talking about.

http://jalopnik.com/5065896/hand+made-lamborghini-built-in-basement-finally-sees-light-of-day (http://jalopnik.com/5065896/hand+made-lamborghini-built-in-basement-finally-sees-light-of-day)

BB: Another possibility -> http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/cto/905062931.html

His email that he sent: A couple minor spots on the passenger front fender but its an easy fix since its just surface. The interior is near perfect, new headliner but the drivers seat has some wear as do many of the rabbits out there. It is a 5 speed manual trans. heres some pictures. Do you have anything to trade?

More Pics that he sent me:

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/GTI/2008_10029-21-080002.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/GTI/2008_10029-21-080004.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/GTI/2008_10029-21-080005.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/GTI/2008_10029-21-080010.jpg)

What do ya think? 

I like the fact he is looking at getting another VW.  Same interior color as my '84.  GTI's only came with 5-speed.  Euro bumpers are nice, the other one had then too. (just don't crash, they are plastic over tiny steel)  Again, look for stress cracks, the black GTI had stress bars, this one didn't say, stock tail pipe tells me it's pretty stock.

I love these GTI's! :-*

Cool!  Thank you Mike!  If the Accord sells this week, we'll be making a quick trip and may have to move on this soon!  From what he's told me, the rust is only surface... *shrugs* 

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

m

 :o  [thumbsup]

Beautiful!

I'd look for the same items Mike and I listed previously, but this one will probably pass that inspection with flying colors.

Surface rust shouldn't be much of a problem, but obviously, you'd have to look at it in person to make a real judgement.  If it is just surface, non structural, and the engine bay is well sorted, then I'd jump on it.  [thumbsup]  That car has been babied, and the interior shows it.  A little surface rust in a non-structural area won't be much of a problem, expecially moving out to Bend.  As long as they don't use salt in winter... which last time I checked, they didn't (just crushed lava rock... which sucks for chips in the paintwork, but it doesn't promote rust).  The dry summers will help ensure a long & healthy life for this example.

Like Mike said, it's cool to see the seller is looking at another VW, and moreso, he's looking for specific VWs (the MkIII VR6 is desired by some, as are MkII 16-valves).  He's obviously an enthusiast, which is reassuring.

I wonder how much "plus cash" he'd give me to trade that for my MkIII GTI VR6?  I could then use said cash for some tasty upgrades...  [evil]

Easy Trigger... me first... :P

Muchos thank you for the feedback!!  I'll keep you posted and PM me your # so if things DO happen, I can give you a call, etc... :)

ttys,
m

Hey BB, the Accord is sold, will have cash tomorrow and hopefully heading to PDX on Thursday (waiting to hear back from GTI person).  Think you can pull away for a bit or maybe go scan the GTI tomorrow??  Give me a call when you can... :)

Aww crap dude... my time has gotten crimped since I started formal testing at work this week... I have a set schedule in the lab... and tomorrow is worse.  I've got a dentist appointment in the morning, so I got bumped to third shift on the test bench, which goes late.  :-\

Thursday I'm back to second shift, so can probably leave work at 6 if that helps you at all...

Sounds to me like you're joining us for drinks TH night!  [drink]

Probably not... need to be back in Bend that evening... How bout lunch tho?  We're meeting the guy around 1:30pm (BnBMike will be there helping us with the decision) so lunch is definitely doable!!  Course I won't know for sure until tomorrow, haven't heard from work yet if it's ok to go or not... I don't foresee an issue...

Dude no can do.

Thursdays are suck ass for me.  Typically 8 hours of meetings.  Then I have to do my job on top of that.  Makes for a good drinking night!  :-\

Well THAT sucks!!  Was hoping to meet in infamous CT!!  Anyone else interested in some food during a lunch environment?  :)

Btw, Neenja, I believe you get to see us no matter what... something about a baby other than Mo....  ;D

Well, we'll be in town around 11am-11:30am depending on the weather... I think we're heading over via 26... If anyone wants to join us for lunch, give us a call... :)

ttys,
m

Got the car today!!  I'm pretty happy, has a few things that need to be fixed (anyone know of a good painter-type?) but it's 25 yrs old!  Isn't that like 150 in people years?  :)  It handles fantastic, the sets are very comfy, and had a blast driving home...  ;D

Tomorrow, need to start fixing it... heh

Thank you Dan'l for all of the input (you'll get more questions, don't worry... heh) and MUCHOS thank you BnBMike for the help at the car!!!

laters,
m

PS: Neenja and Mo, Rowan is awesome!!  Must get it from his mama...  :P

The engine caught on fire in the GTI today on my way to work.  Firetrucks, police, TV news crew (6pm tomorrow night on Channel 9 here in Bend if you want to watch), the whole ball of wax... 

make the beast with two backs
make the beast with two backs
make the beast with two backs
make the beast with two backs
make the beast with two backs

I'm so pissed right now, at work, unable to focus, just want to punch something...

 :o  Oh no!!!

Yeah, it's bad... this is as upset as I've been in a very long time...

Important thing is none of you were hurt!

But yah . . . make the beast with two backs!

Not sure what's going to happen.  Had full coverage on the car.  I'm sure it's fixable, eventually, but not w/o a complete resto...

We'll see what happens... 

got to love old VW's  [bang]... That really blows!

Car is a complete loss.  Waiting to hear back on how much they think the car is worth... THAT is the question I'm concerned most about...

If you didn't know already you do have the ability/right to contend their $ figure.  You can collect data from ads, craigslist, KBB, etc. and argue that the curren market value is higher than their proposed figure.

You should be able to strongarm the insurance company for close to what you paid.  Wasn't it under $2k?  NADA's Classic Car guide says Low Retail = $1525, Avg Retail = $2450, High Retail = $3475 (for a 1983).  Methinks the harder part is going to be finding enough comparable examples currently for sale in this region to justify the price.

That still sucks donkey balls!  [bang]

It's kinda rare for VW engines to randomly catch fire.  ???  Much more common on some of the high-strung Japanese sports coupes (Nissan Z-cars come to mind...).  And morbid curiousity is killing me... considering I also have a twenty-plus year old VeeDub, I'm wondering which component actually started the fire.  Was it an ancillary like the alternator? Or did it start dripping oil from the head onto the exhaust manifold?

If it makes you feel any better, I'm miffed too (misery loves company?).  That was a nice looking first-gen GTI...  :'(

I'd hope they'd square it off even with what you paid, seeing as you had literally just bought it. I'd stick them with the bill of sale and demand a check.

M, I'm sorry this happened to you man that sucks,, I hope you recover the loss




now on to you Old VW guys

VW electrical is Shit

has always been shit and probably always will be shit

Sure they use Bosch Components

but the actual wiring

and specifically the wiring insulation

is crap

it is too hard and prone to damage via vibration/movement

and the plastic used in the other componenets such as the fuse house

is too brittle and prone to cracking

after chasing shorts for a year

I gave my GTI to the FD and we turned it into confetti

now

I can't say they are the most common car I see burn

that title is held by RV's

but I've put a few of them out

bad electrical along with that ever leaking mechanical injection system would be my internet guess

Insurance Says: bad electrical along with that ever leaking mechanical injection system

Bing Bing Bing... give the man a cupie doll... 

Thanks for the NADA #'s, BB.  I've actually found several comparable GTI's so not concerned there.  Just hate the holding pattern...

m

While waiting in a holding pattern for the title of said burnt GTI, I've found this in Spokane, what do you think?


(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc004.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc037.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc038.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc039.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc041.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc005.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc003.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc006.jpg)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm306/mnp69/misc001.jpg)


He wants $2250 for it, would cost me $211 to fly there so thinking of offering $2K...

Thoughts?

If nothing else you are commited to the old VW better luck with the next one  [roll]

My god man... that drive from spokane is sooooooooooooooooo boring.  [bang]

That's a true story... luckily I have family in the Dry Shitties to break up the boredom... And yes, G thinks I've lost it concerning VW's... *shrugs* At least she still loves me...

Btw, Ryan, still interested in the CB? 

Oh hell yeah... not sure what the wifey would say to yet another bike in the garage... but hey.... better to ask forgiveness then permission... right? Although spending money on me around the holidays is frowned upon.   ;D

Got a great deal for you that CYA... Buy the 'inexpensive' bike for you and then hand her 10 days in Hawaii... You'd be the hero (at least the day)... :D

Alright - I've been lurking here for a little bit lately (hoping to sell a frame)

But I gotta come back.  And I gotta be a little bit of a jerk.


Marvel - bummer about your luck with that GTI - but I gotta say - if you buy another one, it falls out of the luck category and into the bad decisions coming home to roost category.  

Here's the thing about low cost old vw's - best case scenerio is that you end up with a "project."  Common case is that you end up stranded somewhere dropping dough on a tow truck or trying to convince someone that towing you home with your belt looped around the bumper is a good idea.

When I say "project," what I mean is money pit.  Especially if you are carrying full coverage on it.  




*disclaimer*  I don't think I've ever made a good decision regarding a car - I speak from experience.  I've also never bought full coverage for a ride - I figure the reason you buy a cheap "mechanics special" is that it's cheap - it it gets wrecked, write it off and buy another cheap POS.  

That's all I got to say about that.

Later.

this is why I always sell my cars before the bumper to bumper warranty runs out.    ;D

This one looks real stock.  Original wheels are awesome.  The pinch weld is out of sorts from lifting the car with a floor jack, you can only use a floor jack in only 2 spots of the car without damage.  The shot of the engine bay, look at the paint / coating around the drivers strut tower, it may be cracked.

Car in WA, plates are ID, what's up with that?  Make sure before anything else.

I agree with toolfan on old cars, but I'm a gear head and love VDub's too, so . . . you already know how to survive when the old car dies.

Later!

He bought the car from N. Idaho (Spokane being right next to it) this spring and maybe he hasn't changed it over... *shrugs*  I'll take a look at the struts, that would be a major concern as well.  He has too many cars and needs to liquidate (has an 86 Sirocco as well) that I may consider if this doesn't work out.  Trying to take one for the team here w/o breaking the bank... I'll figure it out I guess...

old hondas aren't as fun... but tend to have better reliability.

dewd

stop buying shit old veewee's

they catch on fire

Okay now wait a sec... I see lots of old-VW bashing.  My 1986 hasn't burned to the ground (yet).  Neither has my dad's 1985 Jetta GLI Wulfsburg.  Neither of them is a babied garage queen (okay... mine wasn't until recently... now it's a money-sucking pit garage-queen project).  Granted, these are MkIIs, whereas Marv is looking at MkIs.

Anyway, Marv can buy whatever the hell he wants.  Some of you are whinging like he's trading a Duc for a Kawasaki... sheesh.  :P

If it were me, and the car I had just bought had burned to the ground around me, I'd probably be looking for something different, but still old and interesting.  Right now I'm tempted to get rid of the '86 GTI project (*gasp*) and go buy a Triumph GT6.  Trade an old VW for a Brit car (the only vehicles known to have WORSE electrics than old German cars)?!?  Yes, I am a little nuts.  ;D  As such, while I'm not entirely on board with Marv's desire to get another MkI GTi right away, I respect the fact the man has done his shopping around and knows what he wants.  Heck, we're all a little daft for riding Ducatis.  These are *not* rationally-chosen motorcycles.  They depreciate like a stone, require more maintenance than the average Jap bike, typically aren't as fast, have crappy electrics, and are more expensive.  We chose them for passion, because it's what we wanted, not necessarily for any rational reason.

Marv, I'd offer to sell you my '86, except it needs a lot of work to become a daily driver.  I wouldn't try to inflict this car on you.  Only person I'd sell it to is someone who had the time and space for it to be a project, and who knew what they were getting into.

As far as the MkI GTI up on Spokane... like Mike observed, the marks around the driver's side strut tower looks like the cracking that you don't want. The interior and exterior say "outside car" to me, for at least some chunk of its life, and when dealing with an old VW I'd prefer to start with something in a little better shape.

With the interior looking like it does, the potential badness around the strut tower, and the other minor body issues (ding in the back, and the improper lift marks on the bottom pinch weld), it's not worth $2000.  My assessment of the photos says: that car is *maybe* a $1500 project car.  Definitely not worth $2k, and not worth a road trip to Spokane.

... fire...

heh heh heh, fire, FIRE!!

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:z12IcB0OL4B0oM:http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/beavis.jpg)

If'n it were stored elsewhere . . . say my house . . . who'd know?  ;)

No veewee bashing here,

just sayin' - if you buy a project car for a daily driver - you're going to get burned.

pun intended.


and if you are buying a project car to save money - you might as well just max your credit card out at the local strip joint, it's going to be a more positive experience.

OK, with all that being said what about the one in Spokane, what about the one in PDX for $4K?  It's immaculate, looks brand-new, but trying to justify $4K (he will not budge on the price, doesn't have to sell it, only told me about it through Vortex as a 'feeler') is a bit difficult...

Link: http://picasaweb.google.com/OliviaReneeJ/GTITheGoods#

My whole concept was to buy something that I could enjoy driving again, maybe work on if need be, it would be garaged (at least over this winter, we'll see about it when we have to move and where we move to this spring), etc...  I haven't driven a 'fun' car in a while and it's eating at me.  I've loved every one of my VW's and after driving the '83, I had a smile on my face again.  The other car I was thinking about was an BMW 2002 but we're in the same boat, and an older vehicle...

*sigh*

IMO - 2002s are more fun to drive than gtis.

RWD FTW baby.

But I sold mine because
a) cars aren't as fun to drive after you've raced and ridden motorcycles fast - at least to me. 
b) the cost of maintaining/constantly upgrading the little jewel would have been more than a car payment.


I might get another someday (or a 3.0CS) - but I'll have a bigger garage and a little bit more discretionary funding (or a lotle bit.)

+1

Okay, well I can't speak for the Bimmer specifically, but it's this line of thought that has stopped me from pouring money into building a completely custom hot-rod GTI.  So I can pour ten grand into it and build the most cherry MkII GTI 8v... then what?  It's still FWD.

I have the same issue with the Corrado.  Beautiful car!  But... it's FWD, which pretty much ruins it.  I test drove one, the feeling when you slip behind the wheel is that this is a slot car.  The actual performance was underwhelming, largely because it's nose-heavy and FWD.

A late-80's Porsche 944 Turbo will run circles around the best-tuned MkII GTI out there, yet I can get one of those ready to go for $7500-$9000.  It's hard to beat 50/50 weight distribution and RWD.

Some other ideas I keep kicking around: E30 BMW M3, E30 BMW with the sport package, old Porsche 911.

Then again, as I mature, the E34 BMW M5 has greater and greater appeal...

Anyway, Marvs, that GTI in the pics looks fantabulous... but it needs to be a garage and show queen.  That looks like a beautifully restored MkI that should be babied, not a daily driver.  It's worth around $4k... to a collector.  Heck, I've tossed around the idea of owning one of each generation GTI... that would be a perfect example.  But alas, I don't have $4k sitting around.

Also bear in mind... I kick around these ideas for cars, but none of them would be a daily driver (well, perhaps the Corrado).  My '86 GTI is a garage project.  My daily driver is a relatively modest MkIII GTI VR6.

Why would you want to mature? None of us have.   ;D

ok if we are on the kick of fun old cars to drive

somewhere I got the notion ol' marv was trying to be practical...

then my vote is

and

always will be

a Datsun 510 with an old Ford 2.0 running Quad Mikuni's

Datsun?  Do they even make those anymore?



























 ;D

510 drivers and GTI drivers are mortal enemies.  Back in the day, I had a t-shirt that said "I would rather push a GTI than drive a 510."

2002's are awesome and the 510 compares, on the street, but good luck finding any.

And for the record.  Track times in equally prepared cars, by the rule book, 2002 tii and a base Golf run the same lap times.  510's slower and GTI's faster.  That is me driving the stock Golf and GTI.  But my stock MK2 Golf was faster than my MK1 GTI.

As far a FWD vs RWD.  In the right hands, it doesn't matter, unless you like doing burnouts in the high school parking lot.  A FWD car with a limited slip diff will keep up with anything in the corners.  I used to catch / keep up with Trans-Am cars in the twisty bits of Sears Point and PIR.  I got props from Ron Fellows, Boris Said.  RWD is no better, you can not change my mind! <edit: That is for cars under 200 bhp. end edit>

Since I won't be racing, it shouldn't matter now shouldn't it?  For argument sake, for that matter I should go purchase an old Audi Quattro so I can show off my mad hill climbing skilz, yo...

Back on topic, haven't decided but yes, I want an older VW that I can enjoy driving, fix up, and did I mention enjoy driving?  All of the 2002's I've seen recently are in horrible condition for what I can pay for, so still leaning towards a VW...  :)

Racing aside, I was just making the point that VDub's are better out of the box than 2002's and 510's.

Time to make some  [bacon]!

Oh and I almost forgot, (.) (.)!

Here, here, I second that!!

mmm... ( . )( . ) and mmm...   [bacon]

not a fair comparison

hatchback vs. coupe

Yes... lets keep all of our comparisons fair..... I like comparing boobies...

 (   o   Y   o   )      vs.   (   q   Y   p   )

   unpierced         vs.          pierced


 ;D    [evil]

In drafting tests and other same day comp times done during a GoodYear test at Mid-Ohio, we, found that the Jetta goes through the air better than a Golf.  Sedans have cleaner airflow and down force than a hatchback.  Sooo That means the 2002 and 510 should be better, but their not.

BTW, VW of America wanted to race the Golf GTI not the Jetta GLI for marketing reasons.  Same sort of thing when I raced an IROC, Chevy told us to remove the IROC stickers as they sell more RS models (V6) and without the stickers, you can't tell them apart (speeding down a racetrack).

The hatch may be a little lighter, but it has worse weight distribution, and significantly worse aerodynamics (when comparing the Golf and Jetta, since they are similar from the driver's seat forward, and hence the only difference in balance or aerodynamics is the trunk).

Hearing Mike's experience with the old GTIs being faster (at least back in the day)... I find myself with a renewed enthusiasm for rebuilding the MkII.  [thumbsup]

Eheh. IROC = It's Really Only a Camaro.

yeah yeah the coupe's trunk acts as a spoiler smoothing airflow...

but in areas where downforce and drafting are not a factor

such as low speed corners and starts

the GTI is still lighter

the motor supplies more punch

thus an unfair comparison






ultimately it goes like this

the 510 is cooler than the firebugs so there  [cheeky] <raspberry>