Ducati Monster Forum

Thoughts?

Benifits of pods if any over the open box?

Loss of sound depth?

They run better with an airbox.

even one with no top?

IMO


yup.

Without an airbox Monsters, or any bike for that matter, are subject to air currents across the mouth of the carb/throttle body.

It affects airflow and fueling.

An open airbox is protected under the tank.

Once you get the fueling right it will be uniform under almost all conditions.

icey

so a big crosswind would F with open pods...

interesting

never thought about it that way

so with an open airbox, what effect on the fuel tuning does actual forward movement have over a stationary dyno?

From what I'm told not enough to matter.

A good tuner will adjust for driveability not necessarily max power. That will generally leave you just a tad on the rich side which may be why movement is a non issue.

cool

thanks

So is an open/cut airbox with K&N filter the best option for power and driveability?

the best intake option it seems

I believe it is for a carbed bike.

Brad Black who is far more knowledgeable than I has said he doesn't think the open airbox adds much.

He believes cam timing and proper fueling are the answer.

At least that's what I get from reading his posts and articles.

Maybe he'll post up here.

I am currently in Iraq, and when I get home I am going to put some of this hard earned money into my 08 S2R1k.  I already have my deposit in for Motocreations Boom Tubes, and I am trying to tackle the Intake/ECU now.  From trolling these boards for quite some time, I am fairly confident that FatDucs Modulator and a good PCIII tune on a dynometer will solve my fuel/timing issues.   If Mr Black Brad says that an open airbox doesnt add that much than just swapping out the stock filter for a K&N one, I would be very interested in finding this information out.

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4736.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4736.0)

After reading that thread, I feel that it was more directed towards Monsters that were carburated.   I am specially asking the question about the newer, Fuel Injected monsters.  I will send Black Brad a PM.

Thanks for serving  [thumbsup] What branch are you?

Anyway, PCIII wont work on your bike, actually ive never heard of one working on an 08, only 06, and 07 with the removal of the stepper motor setup, and a fast idle switch in place. i dont even think Rapid Bike 3 works with 07+ bikes

From what Mark Savory has told me at motorcreations, they have had some success with tuning the 07 S2r1k with a PCIII, and the CPU on the 07 and 08 is the same, unless I am totally wrong, which is highly likely.

I am interested in this.  Would removing the stepper motor setup cause the computer (DP) to flag an error?  It seems like it might go nuts trying to adjust the idle without any success.  If there are not any issues removing it then mine is going 'in the pile' with the other stuff.

I've got the TPO kit on my 07 695 and had no problems with crosswinds or fueling. That being said...  My butt dyno would love to say that it gets the stated performance gains, though my head is more realistic.  It seems to run pretty much the same as it did with a mostly open airbox once the fueling was adjusted on both setups. 

So a few pros and cons.  The cons of the TPO or any pod filters should go first.

Cons - -

1. You lose the fuel recapture of the vent tank system returning unburnt fuel vapors back into the system through the airbox.  Whether this translates into any noticeable gas mileage loss is most likely negligible, but then again you are venting unburnt crap into the atmosphere instead of back into the engine.  I personally have had issues with the vapors seeming excessive at times when at running temps indicating the possibility of excessive blowback, though my techs have all assured me that I do not actually have that problem.  :-\  A few others have mentioned this problem as well, but most people don't seem to notice it.  I have imagined ways to reconnect the venting system to the pods, but just haven't actually done it yet.

2. You end up with a breather filter off the back of the crankcase that can drop oil onto the tire if the angle of the front wheel gets too high.  ;D :o

3. The coil remounting kit that TPO provides sucks (i.e. worthless at least on my bike).

4. I have heard tales of the throttle bodies not being well supported with just the Pods rather than the entire airbox structure.  This makes them a bit more succeptible to becoming out of whack or damaged, though I've had mine on for about a year now with no problems. 

5.  If you tend to ride in heavy rain there could be an issue with water being pulled in through the filters if they get soaked.  Just how long you would actually have to ride in a hurricane for this to be a problem is not something that I have a desire to test.

6. The Pod filters are LOUD!!

Now for the pros.

1. The Pod filters are LOUD!! But not in the same way as an open airbox is.  With an open airbox all of the intake noise is directed upward toward you in an almost annoying way IMHO.  With the Pods the sound is a bit throatier and less in your face.  When you really open up the throttle it has a viciously nice snarl that complements my exhaust fantastically!   ;D

2. You lose the entire airbox structure and have pretty pod filters underneath that look really cool through the frame and when you lift the tank.  That also makes room for other cool things like airhorns to make even more noise when needed.

3. The K&N breather filter off the crankcase looks cool when you cannibalize the original breather hose to run it out of the left side of the frame.   8)

For the money it costs I wouldn't recommend doing the TPO thing, though I'm already invested and happy.  The bling factor is nice, so If you're set on pods just figure out what intake diameter you have and spend about $200 less on the same K&N's without the "velocity stacks" and you'll end up with the same setup essentially. 

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/Pod%20and%20Horn%20Pics/DSCN0310.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/Pod%20and%20Horn%20Pics/DSCN0308.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/Pod%20and%20Horn%20Pics/DSCN0302.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/Pod%20and%20Horn%20Pics/DSCN0301.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/DSCN0324.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/Chchadder/DSCN0325.jpg)

damn and I thought my bike was dirty

Oh you should see it now with the white wheels... What was I thinking?!?!

Thanks for noticing Steve.   ;D

that rivals someguy/somebastid's bike!

Look at the Avatar.

I am Army stuck in Baghdad at the moment.   Having read all I can.. .I really wanted to go with the boomtubes for the naked rear wheel look on the s2r1k, but due to tuning and airflow issues, it looks like I am going to have to shell out the cash for the termi DP kit.  I want something that is unique yet drivable, and that seems to be the only thing going at the moment for the 08s.

Ahh...i deserve a thump on the head for that one.


Dont know. I've heard of 2-3 people doing it, one of which was on an 06 S2R1k. (flufsdog). Nakid has no issues with a PCIII on his 06 S2R1K, another member monstermash had a PCIII on his 07, but opt to go a different route. I dont know why though. Then theres that whole RB3 issue (which is what i have) and almost like army_intel, if i cant get the fueling right, i cant do intake and exhaust. So im trying to figure this RB mess out. Cant afford DPECU, way to damn much.

Back on topic, I like the open airbox more, but its too freaking big. if someone could make a carbon fiber one!

This looks promising.  I would have given this a try if it had been around a couple of years ago.
http://www.fatduc.com/ (http://www.fatduc.com/)

i don't think i've ever said that.

IF (IF!) the fuelling is adequate, an open air bix lid will always improve power and response.  always.  and noise too, which some don't like.

cam timing changes are another thing that can be done, open lid or not.

I apologize...

that's ok.

the carby bikes can really suffer in cross winds, etc, when you remove the little black breather boxes on sides that the diaphragm vents go into.  i don't thinkthe pods would suffer in the same way on an injected bike, but i've never tried them.

I run pods on every bike I own and make (all carbs) and have never experienced a problem. Years ago I did jetting experiments with open air boxes vs different size and brands of pods & found I always  had to richen the mixture. My favorite is the UNI pods in as big a size I can stuff in the opening. 6" preferred, 4" acceptable - always with the top filtered.

Damn

and here I just went through the pain of talking myself out of the TPO kit

youz guyz are killin me

I've had an M800 with an open airbox and I currently have an S2R800 with pods. Same motor, almost same bike. I dont know where this crosswind stuff came up with but reality is that TPO works great and in my opinion, BETTER than the open airbox. Fact is the airbox is great on bikes that race around at high speeds around a track. This is NOT the same as a ducati monster.

99 percent of the time, you're going less than a 100 MPH. TPO is fine for this.

Also, a lot of people who comment on PODS install them directly onto the intakes. TPO comes with velocity stacks that are pretty much the same as the ones built into your stock airbox. The stabilize the airflow as it enters the intake much more evenly. If these were not provided with the TPO kit, I would not buy it.

Just my .02.

BTW, the clearance also makes maintence overall access way easier. This is a huge plus in my book.

I think the TPO are better than the stock stacks in the box.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the lip on the stock ones is sharp, the lip on the TPOs is rolled over.  That little roll over at the edge usually makes a big difference in flow rates.

Scott

nah they are flared too.


Obama is pro choice
McCain is ProPods

your choice. =p

They are both flared and greatly improve flow.  It's the very edge that's different and that I'm referring to.

Nice and rounded like this:
http://www.vogelmanufacturing.com/images/horn.jpg (http://www.vogelmanufacturing.com/images/horn.jpg)

generally flows better than a sharper edge like this:
http://performanceparts.com/performance_parts_images/mr_gasket_46.jpg (http://performanceparts.com/performance_parts_images/mr_gasket_46.jpg)

I think the ones in the stock air box do NOT have rounded edges though I could be wrong, I haven't looked in there since the beginning of the season.

Scott

I'm far from an expert on the subject, but why would the shape of the outer lip matter?

It's all about turbulence and smooth air flow.  That sharper edge creates more turbulence and lower air flow.  Less oxygen for the engine.  It's a really small thing that makes a measurable difference on a dyno.

Scott

That looks like where I'm heading.  I waited for TPO to make a 4-valve beast, but they didn't make it POD friendly.  I'll lose some power along with the velocity stacks but I'll just have to live with it [drink]

How much of a measureable difference?

I die dyno my m900sie with airbox/k&n/half open lid
And with the Pods on the stock stacks
Difference was 0,5hp (airbox won)

OK, I get it now. I thought you meant using the velocity stacks with pods clamped over them. I'm trying some ram air experiments with 41FCRs but won't know much 'til spring. BTW, nice machining.

Actually Norm,

TPO velocity stacks ARE slipped inside the pods..

Then, assuming the filter touches the edge of the velocity stack, would the edge shape make a difference?

Couple of comments:

1) Norm: I think you make a very good point.

2) I think this conversation is getting too theoritical. The fact is that most of these comments about about air flow are related to a stable/fixed environment, reality changes these results significantly (i'll explain this in a second). The important goal is to ensure that the stacks themselves are long enough to establish a laminar flow path based on the maximum air intake capacity that the bike is utilizes. We have to realize that TPO pods are in reality cantilevered off the intake ports. So they will vibrate a tad due to many factors such as engine vibration, bumps, etc. This will (and DOES) inherently impact air flow. This effect is more evident when I go over cluster of bumps at high speed.

THAT is the major drawback of pods and the TPO setup. For some reason, no one ever talks about it. Proper bracing could solve this problem but I dont think anyone has attemped to secure them in this fashion.

3) In regards to the HP. I agree that pods are probably a tad less than efficient and most likely down on peak HP. But I own a MONSTER,if i cared about peak horsepower, i would have bought a 4 valve bike. Personal opinion here: But I feel that Pods work much better in the mid and low rpm range. I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno shows this. Whoever mentioned that they have a dyno test, can you post the results for comparison?