Ducati Monster Forum

Still being a noob, I've been gauging my progress...in part....by the width of the chicken strips out back.  I've become a lot more comfortable carrying a bit more speed into corners, hanging off (a bit), and throwing the bike around.  This weekend I was getting so far over that I started scraping....nothing panic inducing or harsh, but it enough to cause me to have to adjust my line ever so slightly by backing off on the countersteer pressure and add a bit of throttle.   It looks like I wore a little bit off of my gearshift lever on the left and the brake lever and a screw (I'll be moving that) from the Termi system on the right. I don't see any signs of wear on the pegs or on my toe sliders.   I am troubled though by the fact that I've still got about 1/8" to 1/4" of unused tire left out back. 

I'm wondering if I've hit my bike's cornering limit.  Is it just not possible to get rid of those pesky chicken strips?   Could it be my riding technique or size (I'm 5'11" and 200 lbs) that is causing me to touch down too soon?  I feel like I'm getting pretty low, but unless I hand off a lot more, I'm a good ways from putting my knee down.   [moto]

Sounds like you need to get the bike sprung properly for your weight.

Will that do the trick? I did max my dampening (our 695's only let you adjust the rear shock), but didn't get around to the preload.  I've still got this set at the stock setting. 

Take it to the track.  Please save going for extreme lean angles for places where someone knows that they might get hurt as a result of your actions.

That aside, rearsets will help.  The problem is that what is that comfort on the street and track are mutually exclusive.  The ergonomics you need in order to get those kinds of lean angles are useless and uncomfortable for the street (and sometimes flat out dangerous).  I'd hate to try to maneuver through a parking lot on my SV, but it's fabulous for the track the way it's set up.  You won't get more cornerspeed at your lean angle unless you get your body off the bike.  Getting your body off the bike won't help your perceived chicken strip issue, though.  Tire profile will also affect the size of your chicken strips.  What shoes is your bike wearing?  My street bike is wearing Pilot Roads (M900s with a 180 rear) and I've scrubbed my Michelin men, but that was certainly in my more squidly days before the track took that street behavior out of me.  They certainly aren't the right tire for getting crazy lean angles, but I managed to come out okay.

The bottom line is that if you really want to get into performance riding, a track day ends up being much less expensive than court costs for a reckless ticket or someone suing you in civil court because you ran into them. 

Keep the rubber side down.  And listen to Speeddog.  Suspension setup is worth it!

I hear you on the track issue.  I do want to do a track school.  Lowsliding in the meantime is a concern.

This is hard to describe, but I really wasn't pushing the edge of the envelope when I achieved touch down.  I was low, but it didn't feel like I was down super low or carrying too much speed.  I was probably doing approximately 25 mph on a 15mph right and about the same speed on a round about  when I made contact.  On each occasion, I was immediately before or right at the apex and was starting to add more throttle when I felt the contact.

I was surprised that there wasn't more lean room available.  I didn't try to put a knee out, but unless I was much lower than perceived, I suspect I would have been a long way (maybe about a foot or more) from touching it down.  I've still got the stock Pilots on my bike. 

Lowsiding in the meantime is a concern?  Then don't ride over your/your bike's head, silly!   :P

I bet you anything that you were pushing your bike down.  It is really easy for a new rider to have their ass off the correct side of the seat with their head and torso on the wrong side of the bike's midline.  When you're getting off the bike correctly, your face should be right behind your mirror.  If anything, your torso should be LEADING your ass off the bike, i.e. off the bike more than your ass.  Like I said, it won't get rid of chicken strips, but it will decrease your need for lean angle at a given speed.  Yes, I've rubbed my exhaust cans on both sides.  I know what it's like to be doing it wrong on the street.  Putting a knee out doesn't do as much for you as getting your torso and the rest of you off the bike.  Here is a great example of someone getting their butt off the bike, but having their torso on the wrong side:

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/Desmogirl/JON_0845.jpg)

I'm not saying that I'm all that quick, but this is just what I've learned from my experience. 

Consider adding an adjustable rear ride height adjuster. [thumbsup]

At 200+ gear your a good bit above the ideal weight for the stock springs.  These are ducs and made for skinny euros.  Sad but true.  Ideally you'll follow speeddogs suggestion and get a new spring for your weight.

One tech note that you might keep in mind - it's not hard to find one of the adjustable Sachs shocks from other flavors of Ducs that will bolt right in to your bike and offer a greater degral of suspension adjustment.  I've seen them on e-bay and the parts section here for the $50 mark.  It'd still need a suitable spring if it's still got the stocker.

if your gonna go for an adjustable shock, go showa. Sachs is great and all, but showa is what you want. When i get around to it (been trying to get around to it for over 4 months now) me and my friend are installing a showa SBK shock onto our bikes. suppose to be a huge upgrade, but for your weight you will need a new spring.

Why do you think Showa is better? You recommend it but don't say why...

It may well be a better shock than a Sachs, but that's not much help if it doesn't fit.

 [thumbsup] Thanks for the advice all.  I did have a buddy (with track experience)  follow me through the same set of corners.  It could be that I am conscious of it, but it doesn't appear that I'm pushing the bike down.  I ususally try to point my chin and shoulder at the end of the handle bar (if needed).  I did bring the bike by my dealer...a big shout out to Eastside Motorsports in Bellevue, WA....and they had a lot of good suggestions about the suspension.  Turns out I was overdoing it on the dampening and needed more preload on the spring.  I'm going to add a bit of lift on the back end to get my weight forward.   While i am sure that a new shock and spring would be the magic bullet enabling me to get super low, the costs outweigh the benefits for me.  It is my first bike and I will probably move up to a fully adjustable bike in the future. 

I did find another thread (on a evil twin forum) addressing the same issue and the consensus there was that the M695 will scrape hard parts before using up all of the rear tire.  Ironically, I have scrubbed off all of my front tire.   On the one hand, I am kinda stoked about having this as a problem.   I now need to spend money on a good track school..... woo hoo [moto]

A bit more throttle through the turn should give you some more ground clearance as well.

Honestly though, I'd say that speed is less important that posture and position. You can easily put a knee down on a turn going only about 15-20 miles per hour. Granted, that's a tight turn, but I've done it and was quite suprised when I realized just how far out of position I had been all along. Check out Lee Parks book Total Control and the section on the 10 points of turning - better yet, if you get the chance, take the course it's not that expensive (really) and worth every penny.

(http://a643.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/14/l_450bb3a8657cd5b1b4a1a282df6464ca.jpg)
(I did it here and have Pilot Roads on my Monster)

(http://a801.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/40/l_00e56b8c502964546176a888a9bd9698.jpg)

An easy exercise is to practice and have a friend take a bunch of pictures of you. Then you can look at your body position. The 2 things that most people forget is 1) Look through the turn, and 2) turn BOTH of your shoulders (ie your entire torso) in the direction that you are turning.

This picture is a little IZ_, but look at Lee (Parks) head and shoulder position as he moves through a turn:
(http://a863.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/55/l_a1fdc610bde9565cdc735ae850a5058e.jpg)

Here's another (look at how his outside elbow is bend down and in against the tank)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w56/vegaser1c/Lee%20Parks%20Phoenix%20Feb%2024%202008/leeparks00003.jpg)

These little techniques make a BIG difference. And you abosolutly do not need to be going 100mph to get down there.

Go do a track day, preferably one that you can rent out or borrow an inline 4 600. There is no comparison between a monster on the track and I4 600.  My CBR is so much more composed and confidence inspiring than my S2R 800 on the track. Without a brake and suspension upgrade to my S2R I won't take it out on the track. You won't have any chicken strips on the 600 unless you wreck on the first corner. The only thing that sucks about the track is riding on the street becomes ultra boring.

But the thing to keep in mind is that because of the Ducati engine design, you stand to learn a lot about control and suspension travel thanks to the amount of engine braking that is involved with riding a Monster. Inline 4's are great bikes, but strictly in comparison to a Monster, they offer little to someone who wants to really have a learning expierence. Body position is more important than speed - a track day is fun for riding fast - but you can't ride on the street like you would on the track - so learning more about lean angle and body position at low speeds will apply better to real world riding.

I didn't mean throttle as in going a lot faster but if you apply throttle while turning it will remove tension from the suspension and the bike will be a bit higher. The bike slows down while turning because of the smaller diameter of the outside of the wheel so the throttle will just keep you at the speed you were at before the turn but it will make the bike a little higher.

+1, speed is easy to achieve if you have confidence in the way you handle your bike.Now why do people make a real big deal about the strips?Just  curious. ;D

The answer to your question is simple... Because your buddies make fun of you at every rest stop  (although in my case it might have more to do with the fact that my chicken strips are wider than my rolling strip) ;)

I am made fun of for my chicken strips. It's interesting to read threads about the topic. Most people say don't worry about having the strips. Unless you go to the track you should have them. Yet, at the same time, it's very uncool to not use every bit of tire. Good riders may use all of their tires, dangerous riders may use all of their tires. Good riders may have some chicken strips, dangerous riders may have some chicken strips. It's not really a fair way to judge anyone's ability.

+1.  Chicken strips should never be used to judge rider ability.  Shit, people shouldn't judge you anyway (unless you are a hazard to other riders or yourself of course).  As long as you are enjoying the ride "f" what others think.  [moto]

That sucks. I've never ran across any big pricks at the track for the most part. The guys and gals who are really fast have all  seem to be pretty helpful.

I've never been made fun of for having chicken strips.  Even if I was, I wouldn't trip about it.  For me, having them is a bit like not being able to get a knee down.  Eliminating them is more of a way to gauge progress.  It is a long way from perfect, but its something.

I've always had that last 1/2 - 1/4 inch left over.  Never been bugged about it ~

JM

Out of curiosity, what does it mean if the strips are bigger on my rear tire (1/4 - 1/2") vs. the front (almost gone)? Thought it was usually the other way around?

Me too, but it does look like there is more wear on edge of the front tire than the rear.  I'm not sure what this means if anything. 

It doesn't mean anything.  It's virtually impossible to "read" chickenstrips.  It's a factor of your suspension, your weight, the profile of that tire make and model, your bike set-up and weight distribution, your riding style, etc.  That said, do you trail brake into turns?  That'll affect your front chicken strips.

Seriously, I wouldn't spend time thinking or worrying about chickenstrips.  I can't tell you how many racers I know that have 'em.  They don't mean anything.  But I understand the urge to have a bike that has little or none.  It's not really rational, but we all care at least a bit, right?

I was getting more wear on the edge of my front tire.  In my case it was from backing off the throttle and occasional trail braking on on/off ramps because the car in front of me would be slowing through the curve.  Now I leave more space between the vehicle in front of me when I enter a ramp so I can stay on the throttle.  Problem solved.

Hmmm... don't think I trail brake too much, but do back off on throttle sometimes. Thanks for the answers. <end threadjack>

The primary factors in determining the proportion of chicken strip size on front and rear tires are front and rear ride height and front and rear tire size.  In general the Monsters with a 160 rear will have a bigger chicken strip on the rear than front, and vice versa for the ones with a 180 rear.  Again, bike geometry will be the other primary factor.

Let me take a guess....more load on the front tire maybe?

Um, just a thought, but have you checked you tire pressures?

I do check them pretty regularly.  It was my first thought, but not the case.  I'm guessing that it  may be because I'm pretty far forward when I'm turning hard, but that is just a guess.  I suspect the only way to solve the mystery is to have an instructor analyze my technique at a track school.  I'm looking forward to that next year. 

I was going to ask the tire pressure question too...

usually, for more extreme lean angles... or more aggressive riding.. ie trackdays... lower tire pressure is better...

You say pressure isn't an issue... but what pressure are you running...

On the track I run my 2CTs at 30f and 29r.. these are hot pressures.. .meaning I set the pressure, then get the tires hot, and reset it... pressure will go up with heat so you have to reset it once you warm them up so its the correct pressure at operating temp. this lower pressure combined with proper suspension settings will help the bike feel more at ease leaned over... But in reality, you shouldnt be trying to drag knees or anything like that... if yo'ure smooth and consistent. you'll get through corners quicker and you'll end up dragging knee without trying.

How much higher do you run your pressures on the street?

On the street I'll typically run 35 in both. unless its a spirited ride on smooth roads... then I'll drop down to the mid to upper 20's

this is a happy front tire
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/happytire.jpg)

This was a a track day.. but I was running 30psi that day.

sadly, this is really the only decent pic of me leaned over.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/zx10r/leanit.jpg)

here i am behind a duc
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/zx10r/chase2.jpg)

sorry, passed him for the next time around
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/zx10r/pass1.jpg)