The front brake rotor bolts require the "security star bits" for removal. I've now broken two bits using an impact wrench and one by a regular ratchet. >:( Any ideas on how to get those make the beast with two backsers off?
Quote from: pompetta on November 18, 2008, 04:43:26 PM
The front brake rotor bolts require the "security star bits" for removal. I've now broken two bits using an impact wrench and one by a regular ratchet. >:( Any ideas on how to get those make the beast with two backsers off?
Usually you need to use a hammer driver...
and perhaps a heat gun.
Heat to cook off the loctite...
Quote from: ducpainter on November 18, 2008, 04:58:36 PM
Usually you need to use a hammer driver...
and perhaps a heat gun.
Is a hammer driver better than an impact wrench for this job?
Quote from: pompetta on November 18, 2008, 05:04:30 PM
A hammer driver is better than an impact wrench?
It is less brutal on the bit...
and also directs the initial force downwards and in a twisting motion.
It's almost always worked for me on the older allen style screws.
Quote from: pompetta on November 18, 2008, 04:43:26 PM
The front brake rotor bolts require the "security star bits" for removal. I've now broken two bits using an impact wrench and one by a regular ratchet. >:( Any ideas on how to get those make the beast with two backsers off?
You broke two torx bits or two rotor bolts?
I briefly torched my rotor bolts with propane and then whacked them a bit with a hammer driver (basically just what ducpainter said). I made sure to use a good quality 3/8" torx bit socket. All of the bolts came out with very little drama using a regular ratchet. My bike is rarely outside, so I probably had it easy due to lack of corrosion. I reassembled with a drop of blue loctite.
BK
Quote from: BK_856er on November 18, 2008, 05:12:22 PM
You broke two torx bits or two rotor bolts?
I briefly torched my rotor bolts with propane and then whacked them a bit with a hammer driver (basically just what ducpainter said). I made sure to use a good quality 3/8" torx bit socket. All of the bolts came out with very little drama using a regular ratchet. My bike is rarely outside, so I probably had it easy due to lack of corrosion. I reassembled with a drop of blue loctite.
BK
I broke two torx bits.
Quote from: pompetta on November 18, 2008, 05:18:04 PM
I broke two torx bits.
Try some brief propane and/or a hammer driver.
I bought a Lisle brand driver from Chris and used a new Craftsman 3/8" socket torx bit (bit itself is hardened + black oxide coated).
BK
The stock rotor bolts sucked on my 695. They were mild steel and stripped out under a normal amount of force. That's not the half of it though... We cut, sliced, hammered, drilled, torched, sprayed, and god knows what else for about six hours before we finally got them all out. Not one was reusable. I decided to go with the extra strength (and expense) of titanium this time so I don't have to deal with that again.
Quote from: Chchadder on November 18, 2008, 05:37:57 PM
The stock rotor bolts sucked on my 695. They were mild steel and stripped out under a normal amount of force. That's not the half of it though... We cut, sliced, hammered, drilled, torched, sprayed, and god knows what else for about six hours before we finally got them all out. Not one was reusable. I decided to go with the extra strength (and expense) of titanium this time so I don't have to deal with that again.
What a nightmare you had there! I guess I got lucky, because my M695 rotor bolts were no problemo using the methods described above. I had heard about potential issues, so I tried to go into it well prepared. School of hard knocks and all...
I actually obtained stainless steel button-head replacement rotor bolts, and used them to assemble the new rotors, but before the loctite cured I had second thoughts and decided to reuse the stock black bolts instead. Their Torx design provides extra surface area/grip for torqing things off, and I was anticipating the next rotor changeout...those little 4mm allen fittings on the SS bolts did not look too stout anymore. Good call on the Titanium!
BK
I'v taken mine off with no problem using just a craftsman torx socket and ratchet.
After removal, it was apparent that some sort of threadlock was used. :-\
Quote from: ducpainter on November 18, 2008, 04:58:36 PM
Usually you need to use a hammer driver...
and perhaps a heat gun.
Heat gun followed by hammer-type impact driver with socket torx = SUCCESS!!
Thanks Nate!! [beer] [drink]
Quote from: pompetta on November 19, 2008, 01:06:05 PM
Heat gun followed by hammer-type impact driver with socket torx = SUCCESS!!
Thanks Nate!! [beer] [drink]
meh....
got lucky. ;)
+1 here. OMG they're a bastid. Definitely start with the hand-hammer impact and torx bit. I, too, broke a torx bit and spent hours mucking about with it before learning the error of my ways. I replace with stainless M8x25 screws.
:) Chris
wow; I was lucky I guess; I happened to walk in on a ducati tec that was using a pencil tourch on the rotor allen bolts; so when I removed mine I used a propane tourch; I did cook the bolts and they now have a nice titanium coloured look too; but all came out no-problem-o.
Quote from: chris on November 23, 2008, 11:40:49 PM
... I replace with stainless M8x25 screws.
I was thinking of this, but don't the torx head give more surface area/grip for removal? Would a regular hex-head Allen hold up to hammer impact?
Quote from: pompetta on November 25, 2008, 05:05:04 AM
I was thinking of this, but don't the torx head give more surface area/grip for removal? Would a regular hex-head Allen hold up to hammer impact?
Yup...except for a couple.... :P
If you've got a Monster with the mechanical speedo drive, you can't use regular allen heads on that side.
DAMHIK.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 25, 2008, 07:15:35 PM
If you've got a Monster with the mechanical speedo drive, you can't use regular allen heads on that side.
DAMHIK.
Mine uses a very short headed allen screw.
Is that what you mean Nick?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 26, 2008, 05:10:11 AM
Mine uses a very short headed allen screw.
Is that what you mean Nick?
Yep.
The technical term is "low head". Button heads are the other kind of low profile bolts. Button heads usually won't fit into counter-bored "wells" that some brake rotors have.
This is an old old thread, but it's the only topic that talks about exactly the problem I'm having.
Trying to remove the front rotor bolts and they will not budge. I know this thread talks about heating them and hitting them with a hammer-driver; but, just by putting my allan key in them and pulling on it I'm starting to deform the bolt heads slightly. The key is NOT slipping out of the head and is the correct size. The heads are just that soft AND stuck that I'm deforming them by hand.
Where should I go from here? I let them soak with PB Blaster around each bolt over night and nada. Should I proceed with heat + hand torquing? heat + hammer driver? What do you think?
Well now I technically don't need the answer to this question. I was taking them off because I'm changing tires, but I just called the shop and asked and they said that they don't need me to take the rotors off. Normally I would change the tires myself, but there's a shop a half mile from my house that will change a tire and balance the wheel for $15, so I'm being lazy.
STILL THOUGH, for the future when I need to swap out rotors, what would you guys suggest?
the other issue now is that you may have softened/loosened the bolts you tried and they may need to be relocktited (?) and retq'd
but yes... heat heat and more heat til they come off. also you can try a breaker bar for more leverage
Yeah I understand there could be some worry about whether or not I 'loosened' them... but I'm thinking I'm going to forget about it. I was torquing on them HARD and they didn't budge. If they stood up to that, I think they'll probably remain in place.
When you whack them with the impact driver you are producing a down force as well as rotational so you are less likely to round the head. Also the impact action helps loosen by shock. Also, tool quality of the allen makes a difference. It doesn't need to be Snap-On, but should not be a cheapo.
Lots of good info in this thread-just another reason I love this place.
Thanks.
Was using Craftsman, but still only a little 5 inch long key. Need to invest in some allan sockets that I can use with my torque wrench...
One more tip- if you grind a hollow into the end of your allen it will dig into the base of the screw head instead of tending to cam out, and the impact of the tool will be more effective.
Allen sockets are a must have!
Yes, one should never try rotor screws without the hand impact and proper sockets. A lot of the 2005+ bikes have a goofy Torx screw... even when done properly, those will either break the driver or the bolt head gets ruined. That's when you grind a slot across the top of the head and go back to hand+hammer impact with the straight bit on it.
Oh, and I never ever put loctite on my rotor screws. I use grease. Why? Because I might change the rotors again and the next person to try after the loctite is screwed... been there, done that, have the t-shirt. I'm so glad I don't work on other peoples' bikes anymore; I'd loctite things because people on the internet say that you have to and then I'm the one screwed because I'm the next person to work on the bike.
Quote from: chris on May 03, 2013, 11:45:29 AM
Oh, and I never ever put loctite on my rotor screws. I use grease. Why? Because I might change the rotors again and the next person to try after the loctite is screwed... been there, done that, have the t-shirt. I'm so glad I don't work on other peoples' bikes anymore; I'd loctite things because people on the internet say that you have to and then I'm the one screwed because I'm the next person to work on the bike.
Antiseize is better than grease. Does basically the same thing.
I'm revisiting this topic, have to take my rotors off to paint my wheels. The bolts absolutely WILL NOT budge. I've been using heat and PB blaster to try to get them to move but nothing. I will say that I haven't tried the hammer driver yet because I have to borrow one and haven't had a chance to.
I did get one of the bolts that was stuck to finally come free by absolute luck. The allan portion was completely rounded out, so I resorted to grinding a slit across the top of the bolt to try and get a flat head into it. That didn't work, but then I clamped a vice grips down onto the head of the bolt and it ended up working. I've tried to do that with other bolts but I'm not having any luck. The vice grips is just peeling metal off the head of the bolts. I don't know if it only worked on that one because it had that groove to grab onto.
Really frustrating. Any other ideas?
The impact driver... ;D
I think there's a good chance the impact driver will work on a couple of the bolts, but I'm worried that the rest are stripped out enough that the bit will just spin...
Quote from: ChrisK on July 11, 2013, 09:45:39 AM
I think there's a good chance the impact driver will work on a couple of the bolts, but I'm worried that the rest are stripped out enough that the bit will just spin...
If the allen head is rounded out use a torx bit tapped into the hole along with the impact driver.
Works every time.
Thanks DP, I'll give that a go tonight if these other methods don't work.
Also, I e-mailed you this morning about that tank.
I got a couple more to come loose tonight but I still have 4 left. I used heat, vice grips, electric hammer driver, pneumatic impact, "easy-out" reversed bits, regular metal drill bits, and even a Dremel with cutting discs. Still..... Four left.
As you can imagine, I have a variety of different head shapes by now. DP, I haven't been able to find a torx size snug enough to get that to work. As of now, the ONLY thing that has worked is pounding on the bolt with a hammer, heating it up, and grabbing it with a vice grip. By now the rest of the bolts are so misshapen that the vice grips can't get a firm hold. So, I'm stuck. I might be resorting to burning through a few drill bits tomorrow.
So you tried virtually everything EXCEPT the recommended impact driver??
BK
Get an impact driver...
(http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hand-impact_s.jpg)
not an impact gun
Never even seen one of those. The term "impact driver" in my head was correlated to a drill with the "hammer" function, which I tried. Whoops.
I will be buying one of those for the future, but I'm afraid it's too late for its use on this project.
They are indispensable on motos or on anything that uses allen headed fasteners that are loctited.
The shock from the hammer blow is more downward and doesn't tend to round off the fastener
Yeah it makes perfect sense now. Works just like a punch just on a bit larger scale with some twisting. Cool, don't know why I've never seen one.
i have the exact one in the pic and it's about 12 years old. you will never wear it out and you'll find more uses for it than you'll ever imagine. i've disassembled a dozen bikes with mine. indispensible.
I have had rounded Allen heads that I was able to remove with that tool, one thing that helps is to use a top quality Allen socket and grind a small hollow in the end. This makes cutting edges that can use the part of the screw head that has not been compromised, down at the bottom where the other bit has cammed out. You can't see it, butt at the bottom of the recess in the screw head there is still flat spots!
+1 to hand-held hammer manual type impact.
They'll work on your rounded bolts. The impact sets come with a flat tip insert. Oh, I broke mine on the torx screws that came on my 2005 S2R 800. I didn't have a nice dremel and its tiny cutting wheels, I used the full-on cut off disk to cut the slot, so the flat blade insert didn't properly wedge into the slot. Even with the broken blade, it was able to remove the rotor bolt.
BTW, you know those silly tiny little 4mm allen flat head screws holding in the left side cover? Oh, now THOSE get stuck, not just stubborn like rotor bolts. I broke off, as in two pieces a Snap-On impact 4mm allen tool on those once. It was twisting the hex key (less than 1" long). Ended up drilling though the cone-shaped portion of the head. Once head gone, the bolt came right out, easy-peasy. :P
;D Chris K but not ChrisK
Quote from: chris on July 12, 2013, 10:54:38 PM
BTW, you know those silly tiny little 4mm allen flat head screws holding in the left side cover? Oh, now THOSE get stuck, not just stubborn like rotor bolts. I broke off, as in two pieces a Snap-On impact 4mm allen tool on those once. It was twisting the hex key (less than 1" long). Ended up drilling though the cone-shaped portion of the head. Once head gone, the bolt came right out, easy-peasy. :P
You probably use something on your own work.. Grease or bolt antiseize. Everything.
Yeah, I always use grease. Unless it's Ti hardware, then copper based antiseize. I hate Ti more than carbon fiber. The only place for Ti is on the track and in aerospace.
Quote from: chris on July 14, 2013, 05:58:52 PM
Yeah, I always use grease. Unless it's Ti hardware, then copper based antiseize. I hate Ti more than carbon fiber. The only place for Ti is on the track and in aerospace.
And at least in aerospace, if the bolt threads aren't lubed they're loctited and torque settings are done to suit.
Personally I blue loctite them for a bit of safety just in case. The green wick-in loctite Ducati use in the factory is too strong for the application in the wheel IMHO. Definitely need head and a bit of a slap to get them out. Note that the shock from an hammer type impact driver helps loosen the loctite anyway. Meant to heat and shock anything loctited; heat helps but on it's own you need a bit of a shock too.
It probably helps I have a massive bottle of blue loctite anyway. Indispensible with a few of the other bikes we have in the shed, e.g. the woman's RGV250 seems to vibrate every other bolt off it at a race meeting if stuff isn't loctited in.
Oh and as for not wearing out one of those hammer impact setups - I had an expensive one and I did manage to ruin it smashing it to undo some old Honda engine cases. They're indispensible for old jap bikes with Phillips heads for all of the engine screws.
I replaced my rotor with M8x25 button heads. Not stainless, though, I went for bright zinc plated; mostly cause that's what I use on a lot of other projects anyway. Need a good quality allen key to get them in and out though, otherwise you risk ruining the socket (button heads => smaller allen key/socket to get them undone).
Just a report back, picked one up at Ace Hardware and used a dremel to grind a slot in the head... worked like a charm. Thanks guys!
Quote from: ellingly on July 15, 2013, 05:58:29 AM
And at least in aerospace, if the bolt threads aren't lubed they're loctited and torque settings are done to suit.
Right. Bikes aren't aerospace. Please don't ever tell a Ducati owner to use loctite of any color; it is doing them a serious disservice.
Quote from: ChrisK on July 15, 2013, 09:50:14 AM
Just a report back, picked one up at Ace Hardware and used a dremel to grind a slot in the head... worked like a charm. Thanks guys!
Nice!! That's the way it's supposed to be :D
Quote from: ChrisK on July 15, 2013, 09:50:14 AM
Just a report back, picked one up at Ace Hardware and used a dremel to grind a slot in the head... worked like a charm. Thanks guys!
Congrats!
Quote from: chris on July 15, 2013, 11:54:54 AM
Right. Bikes aren't aerospace. Please don't ever tell a Ducati owner to use loctite of any color; it is doing them a serious disservice.
I use either Loctite or antisieze on pretty much every bolt, depending on the application, with no problems.
Quote from: Ddan on July 15, 2013, 01:38:53 PM
I use either Loctite or antisieze on pretty much every bolt, depending on the application, with no problems.
Just gotta think about what any form of lubrication does to the tightening torque. Plenty of tables out there to let you calculate it though. Biggest danger is always a lubed bolt with a dry torque setting into an aluminium case. Ducati are at least good and tell you what grease or thread locking compound should be used on each bolt in the workshop manual... including the front rotor bolts :).
Remember: motorcycles (including Ducatis) are not equal to aerospace. Some folks like to think a little too hard. That's ok, just don't go preaching it needlessly onto others.
When looking at OEM or Haynes maintenance books, I've found the numbers are perfectly in line with SAE steel into aluminum torque tables. And I'm pretty sure someone knew that the screws would be lubricated coming out of the engine cases! [laugh] So I grease everything that would otherwise be dry and use 60 in-lb for 5mm, 72 in-lb for 6mm, 15 ft-lb for 8mm, 32 ft-lb for 10mm. This has only worked for me since the last time I pulled rotor bolt threads on one of my own Ducatis sometime around 1997 because some damn fool (me) used blue loctite because "that's what someone on the internet said I should do".
Special case torque vales are pinch bolts without enough support or things like the rear eccentric pinch bolts, clutch hub, etc, and then I go look again.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: chris on July 15, 2013, 05:03:37 PM
Remember: motorcycles (including Ducatis) are not equal to aerospace. Some folks like to think a little too hard. That's ok, just don't go preaching it needlessly onto others.
When looking at OEM or Haynes maintenance books, I've found the numbers are perfectly in line with SAE steel into aluminum torque tables. And I'm pretty sure someone knew that the screws would be lubricated coming out of the engine cases! [laugh] So I grease everything that would otherwise be dry and use 60 in-lb for 5mm, 72 in-lb for 6mm, 15 ft-lb for 8mm, 32 ft-lb for 10mm. This has only worked for me since the last time I pulled rotor bolt threads on one of my own Ducatis sometime around 1997 because some damn fool (me) used blue loctite because "that's what someone on the internet said I should do".
Special case torque vales are pinch bolts without enough support or things like the rear eccentric pinch bolts, clutch hub, etc, and then I go look again.
[thumbsup]
And that's also a fair point. I'm not having a go, I just do it slightly differently. In any case, Ducati specify Loctite 243 for the rotor bolts - and then promptly use something stronger which is why they are such a pregnant dog to get out from the factory :).
(Which leads me to another point: "Do as I say, not as I do" seems to apply when it comes to Ducati technical writing, just to help make the waters oh so much muddier)
Quote from: SpikeC on July 12, 2013, 11:14:34 AM
I have had rounded Allen heads that I was able to remove with that tool, one thing that helps is to use a top quality Allen socket and grind a small hollow in the end. This makes cutting edges that can use the part of the screw head that has not been compromised, down at the bottom where the other bit has cammed out. You can't see it, butt at the bottom of the recess in the screw head there is still flat spots!
Spike, can you clarify this? Are you putting a circular hollow in the end of the bit, similar to a tamper-resistant Torx? Or more of a slot?
This seems like an interesting mod
@DucatiBastard, probably more like a "dome"... I did something similar recently to cut holes. If the allen is 5mm or 6mm, if you go at the end straight on with a 1/4" ball endmill or even a 1/4" drill, it will make a concave end that will have a sharp edge.
... curious if this is what SpikeC did... :D
That is affirmative, I use a small grinding point to make a cup in the end of the bit, so it has edges. Stock Allen bits always have rounded corners on the end, which encourages camming out.