Just saying...
Quote from: rgramjet on December 10, 2008, 06:50:04 AM
Just saying...
a military fighter with both engines out is essentially a brick. the guy probably punched out 100 feet off
the deck. he did everything possible.
The pilot probably feels worse than anyone.
Quote from: rgramjet on December 10, 2008, 06:50:04 AM
Just saying...
Eyewitnesses report he punched out after his plane went into a full stall, and was about at treetop height.
I swear to god, I never realized how many idiots there are in this country until I started reading the comments on some of the newspaper sites.... it was disgusting. Calling for him to be executed, and the like.
All planes have a stall speed, below which your plane drops like a rock... this compounded by the fact that he was on approach and didn't have altitude to maneuver or try to pick up speed to glide , further complicated by the fact its fly by wire and no engines mean low/ if no power to operate the flight control surfaces, and he stayed as long as he did, I a bit surprised he got out in time.
According to the maps he was about 300 yards away from the canyon he was trying to crash into. Its a shame he didn't make it, but no one can honestly believe that he didn't care, or wasn't trying to avoid civilian casualties.
For those calling for him to stay with the plane all the way down.... you are disgusting excuses for human beings. All that would have done is increased the death count to 5.
My thoughts and prayers are with the Families and Victims involved, and the pilot as well.
From the father of the victim..
Quote"I believe my wife and two babies and mother-in-law are in heaven with God," Yoon said at a news conference afterward. "Nobody expected such a horrible thing to happen, especially right here, our house."
Yoon said he bore no ill will toward the Marine Corps pilot who ejected safely before the jet plunged into the neighborhood two miles west of the runway at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. "I pray for him not to suffer for this action," Yoon said. "I know he's one of our treasures for our country."
There is a long "discussion" on this subject over at adv rider. It's pathetic hearing people bash this pilot. From all accounts I've heard he had no control over his plane, was trying to get to the nearby canyon, and punched at the LAST possible second. What else was he supposed to do? As posted above, if you think he should've went down with the plane, that's rediculous, nothing could've been done in the last 100 ft of the crash to stop the outcome. It really irks me to hear people bash on our soldiers for practicing to keep our freedom.
sounds like he did all that could possibly be done. a shame for what happened, but you can't do the impossible... :-\
Even the wording of that news quote you posted is a bit biased by saying that he ejected before the plane plunged to the floor. I know it's done mostly for dramatic effect but really it makes it sound like he bailed out at the first sign of problems and then plane went crashing to the ground from miles up in the sky. [roll]
IIRC from the little bit i saw on the news the houses were right on the edge of a cliff and most of the damage I saw was only a house or 2 length away from the edge. He was pretty damn close to "saving" it. Bravo for his effort. Also I recall hearing somewhere that he was found in a tree only 2 blocks away from the plane. At the speeds he was probably going 2 blocks means he was very close to the ground when he ejected.
Didnt realize all the circumstances...hideous/unimaginable situation to be in.
RIP
Those are the same morons that despise anyone in the military simply because they're in the military. As far as I'm concerned, they can make the beast with two backs off and go live in a country with no military to ensure their freedom and rights. Let them see what it's really like.
In a way, I wish they're release recordings of the last communications so the public can hear his fear, particularly at the moment he realized he wouldn't make the canyon.
You know how horrible it would be to be in the pilots shoes, knowing the plane is going to drop, knowing he has to eject to survive and praying the nobody was home below him. Kinda like those of us who drive large vehicles and a car pulls out in front of us. Do we risk our lives dodging or do we risk the lives of the occupants in the car with the hopes we'll survive. Sounds like the pilot did what he could ~
JM
Not to mention the thoughts in the entire squadron's heads that has ever touched that plane.
I was an avionics technician in the Navy. I live in constant fear that I might have made some tiny mistake somewhere, nudged a wire in the wrong way that put it in position to be damaged... basically did something inadvertent that causes, at best, a plane to go down. At worst, a (some) live(s) to be lost.
I heard he lost it on approach.....there isn't shit you can do in those circumstances. He did a good job, tried to save as many lives as he could, and is getting thrown under the bus by the media.
I hope someone tells him he did right. Knowing you killed someone on accident has to be the worst feeling in the world.
and RIP to the family that died.
Quote from: optiato on December 10, 2008, 07:51:03 AM
Not to mention the thoughts in the entire squadron's heads that has ever touched that plane.
I was an avionics technician in the Navy. I live in constant fear that I might have made some tiny mistake somewhere, nudged a wire in the wrong way that put it in position to be damaged... basically did something inadvertent that causes, at best, a plane to go down. At worst, a (some) live(s) to be lost.
I hear ya. I was avionics in the Marines (T/AV-8B). Any time there was an incident, I grabbed the maint log on that bird to see if I had worked on it.
Its fortunate that more people were not hurt, and I did read somewhere that his main concern was for anyone that may have been hurt.
I saw an interview with the Husband/Father/Son-in-law of the family who died in the crash. I thought it was a great testament to him and a real gut check for native born Americans. In one breath saying how he didn't know what to do now and in the next that he felt no ill will at all toward the pilot - that he understood his situation - all while more F18's were thundering overhead. I can't even imagine.
I saw an interview with an "eyewitness" the day it happened. She said she heard a small bang (most likely the ejection seat)...immediately followed by a large bang (plane crashing). He was going for the canyon and just didn't make it...very sad. The pilot is lucky he wasn't killed himself, or seriously injured, ejecting so late. Riding the plane into the ground would have served no purpose.
Tragic accident. Glad to hear that the father understands these things can happen. RIP to his family.
I've heard about this up here in Canada, it's a tragedy but I agree that the pilot did the best he could.
Believe it or not we have similar dipshits in Canada who oppose military action of any kind, specifically in Afghanistan. When someone dies, it's a time to give support to the family and friends - to these people, those dead are statistical ammunition to argue for an immediate pull out. I walk around Montreal and see "Canada out of Afghanistan" signs all the time (Quebec and French Canada has it's own political motivations against military involvement, that's a whole other history). This pisses me off because I have a good friend who is serving over there (on bomb clearing detail, no less), and this lack of respect for their position is sad. The far-lefties keep calling for a pie-in-the-sky negotiated exit and provisional government run with the Taliban. Can you see the error in that reasoning?
Whatever, I kind of got off topic a bit there. Ignorance pisses me off.
Have ya'll really been hearing a lot of negative comments about this pilot? I haven't, but if that is going on, it's shocking and disgusting!
This courageous man did everything humanly possible to limit the risk of loss of life. A kamikaze mission wouldn't have made this situation better.
Personally I think the pilot's actions were heroic. I'm also in awe of the response of the man who lost his family.
Quote from: NeufUnSix on December 10, 2008, 09:19:05 AM
I've heard about this up here in Canada, it's a tragedy but I agree that the pilot did the best he could.
Believe it or not we have similar dipshits in Canada who oppose military action of any kind, specifically in Afghanistan. When someone dies, it's a time to give support to the family and friends - to these people, those dead are statistical ammunition to argue for an immediate pull out. I walk around Montreal and see "Canada out of Afghanistan" signs all the time (Quebec and French Canada has it's own political motivations against military involvement, that's a whole other history). This pisses me off because I have a good friend who is serving over there (on bomb clearing detail, no less), and this lack of respect for their position is sad. The far-lefties keep calling for a pie-in-the-sky negotiated exit and provisional government run with the Taliban. Can you see the error in that reasoning?
Whatever, I kind of got off topic a bit there. Ignorance pisses me off.
Now imagine being the soldier coming home and seeing this. People just don't think...
Quote from: swampduc on December 10, 2008, 09:22:47 AM
Have ya'll really been hearing a lot of negative comments about this pilot? I haven't, but if that is going on, it's shocking and disgusting!
This courageous man did everything humanly possible to limit the risk of loss of life. A kamikaze mission wouldn't have made this situation better.
Personally I think the pilot's actions were heroic. I'm also in awe of the response of the man who lost his family.
a couple of the more mild ones....
QuoteThere is no excuse for this, ejecting over a populated area. The pilot should have gotten enough altitude over water to dead-stick it into Miramar if it came to it. But the pilot should have never ejected over a populated area, regardless. How one can bring them self to do so is beyond me, and utterly dishonorable.
QuoteIf the pilot knew the plane was having trouble when he was flying over/near the ocean, whcih reports said, why not crash the plane in the ocean and be rescued by the aircraft carrier? Was this to save an expensive plane? Be a hero?
Quote
As a pilot, I can tell you a million pilots have done the same thing. "
Sir, don't lie on this forum. You are NOT a pilot...it is obvious with your diction. A trajedy has just happened and you want to grandstand. That's sickening.
BTW...if pilots, like you say, have such bravado...then why parachuts? why ejection hatches? what's the protocal?
It looks like some of the more callous ones have been edited by the various newspapers.
Quote from: DCXCV on December 10, 2008, 08:28:14 AM
I saw an interview with the Husband/Father/Son-in-law of the family who died in the crash. I thought it was a great testament to him and a real gut check for native born Americans. In one breath saying how he didn't know what to do now and in the next that he felt no ill will at all toward the pilot - that he understood his situation - all while more F18's were thundering overhead. I can't even imagine.
I saw him make that same statement to the media last night. Now there's a man with genuine character. I will never understand why such bad things happen to good people, but there must be a reason somewhere for all the hell that he's being put through.
Word around the block is that the family had just moved into that home a month ago.
(http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081209/images/crash.gif)
The pilot did everything he could. It does seem strange that one engine would die, then the other. The odds of independent engine failure seems unlikely. Maybe a system the controls both of them went out, but they didn't die simultaneously. What about running out of fuel?
mitt
Quote from: mitt on December 10, 2008, 10:32:23 AM
What about running out of fuel?
That was my initial thought. ??? I agree, the chances of two engine mechanicals like that are pretty remote. It'll be interetsing to see what is discovered. For his sake, I hope he didn't just run out of fuel. :-\
Quote from: mitt on December 10, 2008, 10:32:23 AM
What about running out of fuel?
mitt
That was also my first thought. But then I saw the footage and all the flames with black smoke. A plane with no fuel would not burn like that.
Do they have separated fuel for each engine, to avoid both engines flaming out in the case of bad fuel? Because if that were the case, he could have a fuel weight reading in for his previously shut down engine, and the other could have ran dry.
:-\
There could have been a problem in the fuel delivery systems. Running out of fuel is very, very unlikely. Could have been birds, but not likely in this case.
Quote from: Court-Jester on December 10, 2008, 10:44:44 AM
Do they have separated fuel for each engine, to avoid both engines flaming out in the case of bad fuel? Because if that were the case, he could have a fuel weight reading in for his previously shut down engine, and the other could have ran dry.
:-\
There are several different fuel cells....
Not that it lessens how tragic this event is, but if you consider the amount of hours that these (and all other military planes) spend in the air, there are bound to be accidents... and consider they ARE flown over populated areas, statistically, it was bound to happen and is bound to happen again.
In one article, they listed that 10 planes were grounded for stress fractures to the flight control surfaces. Why would they even put that in there? It has nothing to do with engine failure. And unless the wing falls off, it can be compensated for. I hate the media.
Quote from: optiato on December 10, 2008, 10:50:16 AM
Not that it lessens how tragic this event is, but if you consider the amount of hours that these (and all other military planes) spend in the air, there are bound to be accidents... and consider they ARE flown over populated areas, statistically, it was bound to happen and is bound to happen again.
In one article, they listed that 10 planes were grounded for stress fractures to the flight control surfaces. Why would they even put that in there? It has nothing to do with engine failure. And unless the wing falls off, it can be compensated for. I hate the media.
That and officials demanding answers NOW! This will take time.
QuoteU.S. Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-San Diego), the senior Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, has asked the Marine Corps to release all maintenance records of its F/A-18D Hornet fighter jets after one crashed into a San Diego neighborhood Monday, killing four members of a young family.
The crash was apparently caused by "power failure" and was likely unrelated to last month's discovery of cracks on the wings of more than a dozen aircraft at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar.
Nevertheless, Hunter wants to see all the maintenance records to determine what really caused the tragedy.
"It is important that we gain a complete understanding of what went wrong," Hunter said in a statement."
I'm sure Hunter is a trained crash investigator, and will have this case wrapped up by the end of the week. [roll]
From the chart, first engine failed over the water, and the decision was made to go for a landing.
If the second engine had stayed operational, I'm sure he would have made it.
Unfortunately, it was the wrong decision, but given the information available at the time, and the certainly very short time window to make a decision... they went for it.
Tragic that folks on the ground died, but that's one of the risks when you live under the approach.
I don't think there's separate tanks for each engine.
I suspect that the engines and fuel systems are fundamentally separate, as much as possible, to try to avoid this scenario.
Perhaps the first engine failed mechanically, and shrapnel got the second engine.
A birdstrike is a possibility.
Interesting how the chart says that more than half of the planes are past their original service life.
I wager that there's B-52s that are 10x past, maybe 20x.
I think Speeddog got it. First engine failed violently, shrapnel from first nicked an oil line ?? the second engine ranout of oil and seized a couple of miles short of the runway.
The pilot did great a job waiting to the last possible second to punch out.
The bigger question is: all over the country they build airports out in the booney's, then the make the beast with two backsin zoning department lets em build houses right up to the fence. [bang]
More years ago than I care to admit, while I was getting my private pilots license. I limped a Cessna 152 around the pattern with a sick engine. ( Apparently one of my gentler touch downs :o broke a piece of crud loose which then procceded to plug the main jet ) It was a very very long couple of minutes, wondering if I was going to make the runway.
Quote from: sno_duc on December 10, 2008, 12:06:59 PM
The bigger question is: all over the country they build airports out in the booney's, then the make the beast with two backsin zoning department lets em build houses right up to the fence. [bang]
+1
Quote from: alfisti on December 10, 2008, 12:09:07 PM
+1
yup. anyone who lives here knows that miramar was built away from everything, then 'civilization' moved
in around it. anyone who complains about the flight paths etc. needs to move. the military objected as
well as it could when houses etc. started going in beneath the approach / departure, but city planners
had to have the tax income. if you're gonna blame anyone blame the city planners for allowing all the
adjacent construction.
Quote from: abby normal on December 10, 2008, 01:15:36 PM
yup. anyone who lives here knows that miramar was built away from everything, then 'civilization' moved
in around it. anyone who complains about the flight paths etc. needs to move. the military objected as
well as it could when houses etc. started going in beneath the approach / departure, but city planners
had to have the tax income. if you're gonna blame anyone blame the city planners for allowing all the
adjacent construction.
The same thing happened here in Virginia Beach. The Navy threatened to shut down that facility two years ago, and the city made a big fuss, crying about the possible loss of revenue and jobs if the navy went through with it. Even got the governor involved. Hell, The navy had been complaining about the new housing developments for twenty years, and the city kept right on issuing permits.
The navy backed down, and the city stopped issuing permits, but I doubt it's over.
My sympathy to the pilot and the family.
Is it too soon for this?
Definition: mixed feelings - watching your mother-in-law burn to death in your new house.
QuoteDefinition: mixed feelings - watching your mother-in-law burn to death in your new house.
survey says: Poor taste. :P
Quote from: Court-Jester on December 10, 2008, 02:59:24 PM
survey says: Poor taste. :P
Survey says: I think my sense of humor is as twisted as Bun Bun's! [evil]
Quote from: sno_duc on December 10, 2008, 12:06:59 PM
The bigger question is: all over the country they build airports out in the booney's, then the make the beast with two backsin zoning department lets em build houses right up to the fence. [bang]
My prayers go out to the family and the pilot.
When I bought my house about 2 miles from Oceana (Virginia Beach) I had to sign all sorts paperwork stating that I understood the potential risks and had no grounds for action against the Navy. Don't know if this would apply to rentals though. Jet noise was also included in there depending on which "zone" I am in.
I think they made the right choice for going to land at miramar. Your option to land on a carrier is very dangerous. and Miramar sounds like a safe choice at the time. No one can say for sure that they knew the 2nd engine had any issues at all. Even then, this is the exact reason why all naval planes are twin engine designs, i am suprised both went out.
I dont think anyone can say for sure what happened until they release a report.
First thing id check out is when the last time that plane was worked on, for what reason, and if it passed all the safety checks.
Quote from: He Man on December 10, 2008, 08:18:02 PM
. Even then, this is the exact reason why all naval planes are twin engine designs, i am suprised both went out.
An interesting side note: the Navy will be transitioning to a single engine fighter soon, the JSF.