hi guys, so i got a NEW agm battery, checked the voltage (13.5V), it was good. intstalled it, took it out for a ride and tried to start it again 2 days later it couldn't start again. checked the voltage, it has dropped to 7.2V. what's the problem? the immobilizer lights even came on and the speedometer needles went all funny when i turn it on and the LCD gave some funny temperature reading. something short circuited?
please offer some advice, i'm desperate. thanks.
What kind of bike?
How many miles?
What sort of mods?
These things are all very helpful to know.
sorry, it an 04 monster s4r, termi slipons, PC USB, and like i said just got a new agm battery.
It sounds like there is a draw on the system.
First thing to do is recharge the battery then use an ammeter to see if there is a draw and what component is causing it.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 13, 2008, 04:57:10 AM
It sounds like there is a draw on the system.
First thing to do is recharge the battery then use an ammeter to see if there is a draw and what component is causing it.
Or your charging system is out to lunch, and you were lucky to make it home. As ducpainter said, first step is to recharge the battery and test for a draw. You need to either take an ammeter with a milliamp scale and place it in series (between the negative battery post and the battery cable) with the battery or use an ammeter with an inductive pick up. AFAIK, Ducati has no spec for draw, but a good any car spec is less than .5 amp. More than that, start pulling fuses, one at a time, until the number drops. That circuit is your problem. Oh, do make sure the key is not in park position. If there is no drain, start the bike and run at 3K RPM with a voltmeter across the battery. You should see 13.5 - 14.5 volts. If you see more or less, post back.
While you're pulling fuses I would check the battery recharge fuse first. When my voltage regulator went kaput I blew that fuse and the bike died on my after about an hour and a half of riding.
thanks guys. first let me get a hold of a multimeter. first of all i'm a real novice when it comes to electrics. i hope you guys can walk me thru this in diagnosing what the problem is. i've pulled out all the fuses and they looked ok, that much i've done. i'll try and get a multimeter today and see what kind of readings i get. cheers.
A cheapo Radio Shack digital high impedance meter is fine.
when i connected the negative battery terminal there were sparks, is this an indication that there's a short somewhere? couldn't get it to start up coz the shop didn't charge up the battery enough the V measured at 11.5 so i have to take it back to the shop today as they were closed for the weekend. will post back.
With the key off there should be no 'load' sparks.
You connected positive first then negative...correct?
yes, that's exactly what i did.
Assuming the key was off you have a BIG drain somewhere. Are you sure the key is not in the park position?
yes absolutely positive.
Get yourself a meter and start pulling fuses. Actually, before that take a walk around the bike and make sure nothing is lit or making noise. In your case, a test light will probably work since the draw seems to be large. Place the test light between negative on the battery and the negative cable. If the draw is big enough, the light will glow. Pull fuses one by one until the light goes out. This circuit is where the problem is. From then on, it is a process of elimination Put the fuse back in. Disconnect each consumer on that circuit until the light goes out. A wiring diagram is your friend. When the problem is solved, bring the battery back and have it charged and load tested to make sure it is fit for service
ok, got the battery charged up, installed it, HOWEVER, this time when i connected the negative terminal, there were no sparks ??? ??? [bang] so i didn't bother pulling out all the fuses, should i do it anyway? what i did was run the bike at about 3000-4000 rpms and checked it with the multimeter but the voltage remained. it didn't even budge. so i figure could this be the alternator. i unplugged the socket, ran the bike again, and checked it with the multimeter (AC current) all 3 leads were within spec. could this be the rectifier/regulator then? did a search on the forum but can't seem to be able to find anything on checking the rectifier/. howie???
thanks
Quote from: Fruity on December 15, 2008, 03:42:52 AM
ok, got the battery charged up, installed it, HOWEVER, this time when i connected the negative terminal, there were no sparks ??? ??? [bang] so i didn't bother pulling out all the fuses, should i do it anyway? what i did was run the bike at about 3000-4000 rpms and checked it with the multimeter but the voltage remained. it didn't even budge. so i figure could this be the alternator. i unplugged the socket, ran the bike again, and checked it with the multimeter (AC current) all 3 leads were within spec. could this be the rectifier/regulator then? did a search on the forum but can't seem to be able to find anything on checking the rectifier/. howie???
thanks
Maybe the sparks were from the immobilizer trying to do it's job, not sure. If your multimeter has a milliamp scale, check for a draw anyway.
Here is a great guide:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php)
Sounds like a regulator, but before condemning it make sure all connections are good, particularly where the stator plugs into the regulator. Also make sure the regulator is well grounded.
thanks for the link howie, the guide lost me on page one. i couldn't find the black wire coming out of the R/R and the chart only specified Jap bikes, plus it was getting dark as well. there are 7 wires coming out of the R/R; 2 color in pairs and a single color with 3 wires. can't remember them exactly but definitely no black. any ideas?
thanks
The three large yellow wires will be the AC output from the alternator, the other pairs are DC + & -
thanks very much capo. so i assume i have to test both set of wires, the red and brown to see which is negative. the other 3 wires are brown and if they're supposed to be yellow, screw me then they're probably burnt. then that's where my problem lies.
Quote from: Fruity on December 16, 2008, 06:46:24 AM
thanks very much capo. so i assume i have to test both set of wires, the red and brown to see which is negative. the other 3 wires are brown and if they're supposed to be yellow, screw me then they're probably burnt. then that's where my problem lies.
Are they brown on both sides of the connector?
All Duc alt wires are yellow.
Besides the three yellow (stator) wires you should have a pair of red wires which are positive and two black wires. The black wires are ground. Pay attention to the bike side of the connector, not the regulator side since your regulator may be an aftermarket unit.
This is the regulator from a 04 S4R. Note that the two 'black' wires are in fact green (they must have run out of black that day ;D ) the wiring diagram refers to them as being black.
The pair of red wires go to the 40A fuse which is located on the left hand side of the battery mount.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/P1000851.jpg)
That looks exactly like the regulator they sent me when mine blew up on my m900.
thanks for that picture (picture says a thousand words) so there's been discoloration of the wires on my bike. so i'll got test it now. my gut feeling is the rectifier/regulator is kaput. are all RR the same for the bikes? (superbike 748,916,996,998 series and the 749,999, all monsters , STs, Multis etc) thinking of getting one off ebay. thanks
There are single phase and 3 phase alts and rectifiers to match.
There are also some differences along the way in the single and 3 phase.
Chris Kelley will sell you an Electrex brand new replacement for $109 minus your DMF member discount.
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/elec.html (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/elec.html)
Scroll down.
thanks for the link howie. now the question is do i buy a brand new one or a used one off ebay. there's a couple floating on ebay that's relatively cheap the came off 2003 and 2006 bikes. what's the life on a rectifier? then again it's ducati electrics, right ???
Check your system first.
Do you have a shop manual?
Quote from: Capo on December 18, 2008, 01:47:04 AM
Check your system first.
Do you have a shp manual?
+10,000.....you need to make sure which component of the system is bad before you go changing parts....costly parts. If you want to check the system, definitely buy a repair manual. They describe ways to check each component of the charging system.
You are correct in checking for 13.0+ volts DC across the battery terminals with the bike running at 2000+ rpm. You haven't told us if it is still showing a charge after getting it back home. Charge the battery and check the voltage regulator output. If it still looks good, then you potentially have a bad battery or the stator can be dropping out at even higher rpms (I've seen them do this before). If it still shows that the regulator is charging, I usually buy a cheap $10 voltmeter at an auto parts store and temporarily install it, then drive around and check the voltage readings at different rpms. If it is charging, but not keeping up with the demands of the system, you have to find out where the drain is. The first thing I would do is dissconnect the headlight plug and check the system, again. I am suspecting an overload on the system if your yellow wires are brownish. This means that the system has far too much amperage draw and you are running the rick of melting connectors, wiring insulation, and possibly starting a fire. Now, if the voltage regulator is not out-putting a correct voltage for charging, you need to check the stator...
The stator check will have you reading the AC power coming off the two yellow wires before they get to the regulator. Usually, depending on the system, this will be in the 30-60 volts AC range. You will also do a continuity check on each wire to see if the stator is grounded to the engine case. If the stator is good, but the regulator output is not good, chances are the regulator is bad....
In some rare cases, the new battery is bad, will not take a charge, and it makes the charging system run excessively hard (I had this happen in the past with a brand new Interstate brand battery in teh 90's).
Assuming you checked the stator, as in an earlier post, I would buy the new Electrex. There is no way you know what you are buying on Fleabay, and, AFAIK, there is no way to bench test one. Since the part is electronic, the seller can say you cooked it anyway. My advice is buy the Electrex from Chris Kelley. Many have run these with no problem and they are much cheaper than OEM.
Quote from: Desmo Demon on December 18, 2008, 04:00:24 AM
The first thing I would do is dissconnect the headlight plug and check the system, again. I am suspecting an overload on the system if your yellow wires are brownish. This means that the system has far too much amperage draw and you are running the rick of melting connectors, wiring insulation, and possibly starting a fire. Now, if the voltage regulator is not out-putting a correct voltage for charging, you need to check the stator...
The alternator is not regulated and outputs full power all the time, the regulator shunts the excess to ground.
The solution as you have indicated is a logical & methodical examination of the system to identify the problem.
The OP may find this helpful http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=14261.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=14261.0)
thanks everyone for the input. i've used your tutorial capo and i do have a workshop manual. and i've also followed your link howie and did the step by step diagnosis. i pulled out all the fuses and put them back in one by one to check for any draw but none. when i did the tests all faults point to the rectifier (by the way the rectifier is about 5 years old). so i disconnected the rectifier from the bike but left the battery intact on the bike. it's ok now, the voltage hasn't drop at all. previously it would drain the battery dry with the rectifier there. so i'm pretty sure it's the rectifier but i can't be too careful can i ??? quite tempted tho to do as you suggested duke demon. thanks
Looks like it's the regulator.
Chris Kelly is your man.
capo my man, is there supposed to be a ground wire coming out of the RR? if not is it advisable to ground it? how to? cheers.
Quote from: Fruity on December 19, 2008, 04:07:07 PM
capo my man, is there supposed to be a ground wire coming out of the RR? if not is it advisable to ground it? how to? cheers.
On my bike the ground is attached out of the harness at one of the RR mounting points.
The regulator is 'grounded' via (in case of the pic), the green pair of wires. I don't recollect a ground connection to the RR mounting bolts.
From what I have read so far, it looks as tho a couple of rectifier diodes have failed enabling a circuit between the positive and negative sides of the battery, the current flowing thru this circuit, was evidenced by the spark you observed when disconnecting the negative battery terminal.
Not much you can do about this other than replacing the RR. But do make sure you burnish, clean and protect from corrosionall the connections.
I'm intruiged as to the cause of the RR failure, it is highly improbable that two diodes on the same circuit 'just failed' at the same time.
Were you having problems before the new battery?
What was the reason for the new battery?
Have you ever jump started the bike?
Have you ever disconnected the battery with the engine running?
My bike is carbed.
Maybe that is the difference?
you're absolutely right capo. when i checked the regulator via the step by step method provided by howie it showed both + and - of the regulator failed. i haven't done anything out of the ordinary. tracing back step by step:-
i) i changed the battery about a year ago coz the stock battery was old (4 years)
ii) later i had an immobilizer problem when i tried to fix the damper but that was sorted out
iii) a year later the "new" battery died. took it to nearest car mechanic to have it charged up (didn't know better then) and that was the start of the series of problems. since then the battery won't hold a charge. got it diagnosed battery was cooked.
iv) got another NEW battery, hooked it up rode the bike, next day battery kaput again.
v) then i started doubting it was the battery's fault
vi) a friend advised me on a way to test the regulator was to unplug the battery whilst the bike was running (i only did it once), he said if the regulator was ok the bike will keep on running. ( i didn't know better)
vii) then i got the multimeter and started doing a whole bunch of test and found out it was the RR indeed.
that's in a nutshell. ;D [beer]
Good that you have now resolved your problem.
I note that there were only 2 replies to this question on TOB.
TOB, is that "the old battery"? anyway, pictures say a thousand words.
(http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/KKS4R/rectifier.jpg)
(http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/KKS4R/wires1.jpg)
(http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/KKS4R/wires2.jpg)
i was wondering if the wire discoloration was due to old age or excessive heat? coz the part where its under the plastic cover (which i have cut in these pictures) looks fine. hmmm...what do you guys think
When my voltage regulator died on '95 m900 it cooked more than half of the wires that come out of it and the burning/ melting insulation caused the bike to look like it was on fire. [roll] The couple wires that weren't burnt through were kinda brittle and after flexing them a few times they broke from fatigue like when you bend a paper clip too many times.
Mine happened to die on me after I slowed down due to traffic (couldn't split since my parents were following me in a car w/ all my stuff). It was almost like the air blowing on the regulator was the only thing keeping it going and once I slowed down it cooked itself in less than 5 minutes. I don't know a whole lot about how it works but I'd say that the discoloration of the insulation is a sign of heat due to resistance and the resistance is probably a sign of the broken regulator.
Side note, how did you knick up that middle right fin by the bolt hole so bad?
Oh, and ToB is "the old board" referring to the ducatimonsterlist that we all left in favor of here. Long story, but if you search around a bit I'm sure you can find the story.
ah!!! comprende. "the old board" ya, bummer.
the knick on the fin was already there when i bought the bike. so i have no idea. [beer]
Usually the heat discoloration comes from high resistance at the stator connection and the high resistance is the cause of the regulator death. Do carefully check that connector for signs of heat damage and that the connection is clean and tight and repair as necessary. Some dielectric grease in the connector will keep the elements out.
QuoteI note that there were only 2 replies to this question on TOB.
To go off topic for a moment: It seems to me that this board has reached a point where it's not only better than TOB, it's better than TOB ever was, even before the sale. The threads in general seem to be a lot more positive. There are a couple of good guys that don't seem to have made the transfer here, Ducman 851 being one of them and they are missed, but there are also a few jackasses that have never shown up here so I think it's a net gain.
I was trying to keep this a positive post and my apologies for referring to any fellow Monster riders as jackasses.
Back on topic, I haven't had any rr issues yet, but thanks to this thread I think I will move it more into the air stream.
Quote from: Langanobob on December 21, 2008, 10:38:19 AM
To go off topic for a moment: It seems to me that this board has reached a point where it's not only better than TOB, it's better than TOB ever was, even before the sale. The threads in general seem to be a lot more positive. There are a couple of good guys that don't seem to have made the transfer here, Ducman 851 being one of them and they are missed, but there are also a few jackasses that have never shown up here so I think it's a net gain.
I was trying to keep this a positive post and my apologies for referring to any fellow Monster riders as jackasses.
Back on topic, I haven't had any rr issues yet, but thanks to this thread I think I will move it more into the air stream.
I hope you pushed the button ;D
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16446.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16446.0)
thanks capo my man. will definitely heed your advice.
this forum is excellent and i'm deeply grateful for all the help that i have received. thanks for your patience and guidance guys.
i SALUTE YOU !!!! [bow_down]
QuoteI hope you pushed the button Grin
Dang...it looks like you got me. This is just as bad as the old board, every time I make a post I get in trouble ??? I didn't know about the button, but yeah I pushed it.
sorry guys i tried pushing the button but paypal doesn't like malaysian credit cards. BUMMER !!!