I find it strange for a company like this to choose now to be so reactionary as to pull out of most everything now and stand to lose market share to maybe some leaner companies like Ducati. I'm refering of coarse to Formula 1 ,AMA Superbike, and finally canceling the very popular Honda Hoot. Never mind that it is the 7th year straight that they haven't offered a new VFR the world has been crying for. It seems almost daily now we are hearing stories similar to this. Share your opinions please.
It could possibly be 'Very make the beast with two backsing Redundant'.... ;)
Well, seeing how Honda isn't asking the gubberment for money to stay afloat...
It is tough times -- discrentionary spending, such as racing, and get togethers are going to get cut.
They'll be back, but for now, they are watching every penny that goes out of their hands.
And that is why they'll survive...
Do you think though that in some way , to lose market share in the end will affect them? It's intersting, maybe so, maybe not.
Quote from: gearhead on December 21, 2008, 06:20:27 PM
Do you think though that in some way , to lose market share in the end will affect them? It's intersting, maybe so, maybe not.
Only the future will tell if their decision is correct (maybe), but if if racing costs X million and loss of market share will cost less than X million they save money. Besides, privateers will continue to race.
Its the carpocalypse. They also just canceled the NSX successor, and that project was almost ready to ship (it was on the 'Ring doing laps just last month). They're just trying to stay liquid in difficult times.
I don't think they're really going to lose a lot of market share. They'll lose some exposure, but right now I think the automakers are doing everything they can to cut out programs they see as non-essential. Personally, I think Honda may be gearing up to be in a position to take market share should any of the Big 3 fail. I'm willing to bet that if GM or Chrysler slip into bankruptcy, Honda and Toyota are going to be looking to purchase factories to build vehicles that would fill the void.
The NSX move did surprise me since the car is decidedly up-market and niche. One would think the target market for this vehicle would be less affected than, so the average buyer of an Accord.
I wouldn't buy a honda car just because they race in F1, would you buy a fiat because ferrari does :D ?
My sense is that they're just tightening their belts a bit. Sorta like the US consumers are doing, only on a much bigger scale.
The best quote I read from a Honda exec is this one from VP Ray Blank: "...racing “leaves in priority fashion, it returns in priority fashion."
IMO, Honda will jump back into AMA and probably F1 again when they feel like the money is available to do so.
There's nothing wrong with being prudent.
Quote from: TAftonomos on December 21, 2008, 06:59:57 PM
I wouldn't buy a honda car just because they race in F1, would you buy a fiat because ferrari does :D ?
well, i surely wouldn't by a honda based on their recent f1 performance...
I read somewhere (I think it was Autoblog) that the cost of one point in F1 was in the millions of dollars (total points/cost of program). Racing programs at that level are crazy expensive.
Quote from: CowboyBeebop on December 21, 2008, 07:22:56 PM
I read somewhere (I think it was Autoblog) that the cost of one point in F1 was in the millions of dollars (total points/cost of program). Racing programs at that level are crazy expensive.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/11/09/4378133-the-price-of-a-point-in-2008/ (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/11/09/4378133-the-price-of-a-point-in-2008/)
it IS expensive, but it's also somewhat of a silly statement to make since f1 really isn't a "high point" sport. it's only 10pts for a race win.
in fact, bernie is trying to go to a "no point" medal system for next year.
that said, look at honda's cost per point and you'll see why it was a very easy decision to put f1 participation on the back burner.
Quote from: TAftonomos on December 21, 2008, 06:59:57 PM
I wouldn't buy a honda car just because they race in F1, would you buy a fiat because ferrari does :D ?
Surely you wouldn't buy a Honda just becuase they race in F1. Racing is just another form of marketing that makes potential buyers aware of its existance. It also associates the car/company with the prestige of being in a particular competition. Racing R&D also drives innovation and often times translates directly from the race track to your driveway. Porsche, Ferrari, and Ducati all did the same. Without being in SBK for all those years, you and I wouldn't be in the Ducait Monster Forum talking about how racing makes you want to buy a car or a bike. I doubt you bought your Monster and Termi simply becuase it looked nice in a catelog.
Personally, I think Subaru (Impreza) would stand to lose more market share to its competitors by backing out of the WRC. Since the inception of the Impreza, it has been synonymous with the WRC... It's surely a sad day in motorsport. :(
In the States, very few people follow WSBK or MotoGP. What sells bikes these days are mad stuntaz. Its a lot easier to sponsor a stunt crew than it is to fund a race team, and its more effective to boot. Your average squid isn't buying a Gixxer because Suzuki's leading in points, he's buying it because his favorite tuner or stunter is riding it.
Quote from: CowboyBeebop on December 21, 2008, 07:22:56 PM
I read somewhere (I think it was Autoblog) that the cost of one point in F1 was in the millions of dollars (total points/cost of program). Racing programs at that level are crazy expensive.
The cost per points earned is expensive, even for successful teams like Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes. As for Honda, with the millions of dollars spent, 14 pts just wasn't enough bang for the buck. I think Honda just sucks at open wheel racing and they all know it. Siting the financial challenge is a much better excuse than admitting defeat. IMO, of course.
Isn't the problem that the market has shrunk?
I understand about business decisions to cut back on non-essential expenses. Companies that don't or wait too long to adjust to market conditions won't be around long. Sometimes business mistakes are fatal to the business. This economy is not going to reward the inept.
Having said that, and having a Goldwing in the garage, here is a link to a very insightful message regarding Honda. This is from the gl1800riders.com forums. Agree, disagree, don't care - any way you feel about it the author makes several valid points.
http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198585 (http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198585)
Quote from: superjohn on December 21, 2008, 06:53:51 PM
I'm willing to bet that if GM or Chrysler slip into bankruptcy, Honda and Toyota are going to be looking to purchase factories to build vehicles that would fill the void
I'll take that bet. If GM slips into a position where they arne't building cars anymore, Toyota will be scrambling to find new suppliers for the cars they already build.
There seems to be an attitude/perception that this is only a (not so) big three problem, that if GM goes away everyone will just buy Brand x instead. Doesn't work that way. If GM goes away, a lot of suppliers go away too. These suppliers aren't exclusive to GM but GM keeps them alive. If Toyota can't buy, say, exhaust systems because the supplier went under, their production line stops too. Maybe they own the tooling to make whatever part it is they need, but probably not. So what do they do? Go to another supplier and get it? Nope. They wait until someone else can tool up and get the part into production. And they pay a lot of money to have that done quickly. Assuming they can find someone to do it for them to begin with.
If GM fails, Honda/Toyota is screwed. Buying another plant will be the last thing they'll want to do.
Even overlooking the supplier problem, Toyota isn't building cars at full capacity. Honda isn't either. They're going to utilize what they have before they invest hundreds of millions (billions?) into buying and tooling up a new plant to build cars they already build somewhere else. The world has too much capacity for building cars - a plant that closes isn't getting reopened anytime soon by anyone.
The exception to this is if GM or Chrysler fails, somebody is going to buy specific brands, such as Jeep. Plants would likely be part of those purchases.
Toyota post first loss since 1941
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081222/bs_afp/financeeconomyworld (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081222/bs_afp/financeeconomyworld)
Land Rover & Jaguar are on the skids
Maybe we will all be getting our cars from China
Quote from: Capo on December 22, 2008, 02:34:09 AM
Isn't the problem that the market has shrunk?
The market can shrunk but you still have to work to keep the market share that you have (the percentage of the total market). If your market share gets smaller as the overall market shrinks, then you are losing ground faster than your competitor. That would be insult to injury...
People who have money that spend it now are not inept in my opinion. An example is the stock market where there will be alot of money to be made by those smart/lucky/stupid enough to be buying when prices are down now. In essence the same as capturing market share when your competitor is busy turtling in.
Quote from: Capo on December 22, 2008, 09:28:33 AM
Toyota post first loss since 1941
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081222/bs_afp/financeeconomyworld (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081222/bs_afp/financeeconomyworld)
Land Rover & Jaguar are on the skids
Maybe we will all be getting our cars from China
i heard that was well.
the big difference (and this applies to all the Japanese auto companies) is that toyota has substantial cash reserves. they are going to hunker down and watch the american big 3 disintegrate.