Ducati Monster Forum

So I have some pretty cool ideas on how to clean up my bars on the bobber I'm building (pee cups are ugly  [puke]) One of my dumber ideas involves a question. Since the rerservoir only supplies brake fluid as the pads wear down, Could I fill and bleed the brakes, and ditch the reservoirs? put a screw or bolt where the openings were? It would obvously need to be monitored more than a standard reservoir system. It sounds even more dumb as I type it, But I gotta ask. Fire away!

Its a hydraulic action that pushes the pads into the rotors. Since these fluids are considered to be non compressable, then that means you need to displace a certain amount of fluid to move the pads. Wheres the fluid comming from if there is no outside source?

Nope, you've got to have a resi.

Clean way is to fab the bars with the resi's built in :)  [thumbsup]
(http://www.customfighters.com/forums/imagehosting/30846f17175695a8.jpg)

I was about to respond about how Gregg's customs built a bike with similar reservoirs.....until i saw the little Hellion at the bottom of the pic  ;D

I'm so madly in love with those I can't even think straight.  You're the welder TAftonomous, how feasible would those be to fab up?  I'm looking for some beginner's projects this spring.  I've got the coffins on my ride but I'm looking into new masters and I abhor the pee cups. 

Sorry Pasta Bobber, but I looked into the same thing for a while.  You gotta have them.  Why manufacturers always mount them so far above the master cylinder is beyond me though. 

NOT hard really.  My only question would be if the inside of the reservoir would need to be coated with something to protect the aluminum.  I'm pretty sure brake fluid is caustic enough that it would eat away at aluminum.

Those pictured are either steel or Ti, more than likely steel. 

The aluminum cap and the flange on the top of the reservoir are simple items made on a mill.

Other than that it's a flared piece of pipe, welded to the bar with a hole drilled in it.  Sometimes the simplest things make for some clean mounting :)

I don't think so.  ??? I've heard about it taking off chrome, paint and plastic, but it better not be caustic to anodized aluminum because that's what my reservoirs are made out of (Rizomas)

One of the monster challenge guys just used a pair of modified fuel filters (capped the tops) as reservoirs. You can kind of make them out in the photo below

(http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/8956084/122_0608_01_z+2006_ducati_monster_challenge+green_bike_static.jpg)

I`ve seen a SBK w just one, a bit larger reservoir.

(http://shop.durbahn.de/shopimgs/446.jpg)

Your idea will work fine and is commonly used for rear brakes. It's a little trickier up front because as the bike is leaned to extreme angles, any little bubble will go where it's not supposed to go and......no brakes (FHE).

Exactly, which is why you need the reservoir to be high above the master cyl.. That chopper picture with the reservoir built into the bar is a clean looking idea, but it's for show. That bar is probably stainless steel and not only is it too low for a sportbike (or any bike that will be leaning), but you will likely have condensation problems from being metal. Also, the reservoir is too small for a sportbike brake system because you are pushing more fluid...(i.e., two big calipers instead of one tiny one) It's for show, and it's a really bad idea.

In the original poster's scenario, when you apply the brake, it would lock up and stay locked up.
 
And the brake fluid does eat away at anodizing. Even the stock cap that is anodized black has the finish flake off. If you don't believe me, go pull the cap off your stock reservoir and look at all the little flakes. This happens to them all after a while. These flakes can wreck seals too.

So, to sum up...you may not like the look of your big plastic cups that sit up high, but they were designed that way for a reason and you really should not get too radical trying to modify them.....good luck

Hmmm: (http://www.gc-cycles.com/images/CG-Hellion1.jpg)

That bike looks freaking bad ass! but does it work half as good as it looks?

Taft, I thought that from that first pic, it was a chopper. Doesn't matter what kind of bike it is...it's not a great idea.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Built into the bars was my other idea. Thanks for the cool helion pic Tafto. Built into the bars is probably the way I'm going to go. The other idea was a small piece of tubing like they used on flat trackers. I had the same question about the fluid corroding the steel bars. I guess we could make another set out of stainless. I read on another forum that DOT 5 won't peel up paint if it's the right base (can't remeber which) I would like to think that if it doesn't peel paint, the steel would be safe.  Making sure there is little air in the bar will be important, I'll probably still use a cap with a diaphram. While the pee cups are a great design and functional, thats not reason enough to let them trash the look of my bike. Function, form....whatever. I'm sure I'll have planty of brake performance for what I'm building the bike for. Heck, the stock front system that I'm starting with (S2R 1000) is better than what most bikes come with. it'll be safe either way [moto]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Built into the bars was my other idea. Thanks for the cool helion pic Tafto. Built into the bars is probably the way I'm going to go. The other idea was a small piece of tubing like they used on flat trackers. I had the same question about the fluid corroding the steel bars. I guess we could make another set out of stainless. I read on another forum that DOT 5 won't peel up paint if it's the right base (can't remeber which) I would like to think that if it doesn't peel paint, the steel would be safe.  Making sure there is little air in the bar will be important, I'll probably still use a cap with a diaphram. While the pee cups are a great design and functional, thats not reason enough to let them trash the look of my bike. Function, form....whatever. I'm sure I'll have planty of brake performance for what I'm building the bike for. Heck, the stock front system that I'm starting with (S2R 1000) is better than what most bikes

I found these while browsing around.

http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?product=Original+Adjustable+Ratio+Master+Cylinder-CP3125+Family_2551_1095 (http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?product=Original+Adjustable+Ratio+Master+Cylinder-CP3125+Family_2551_1095)

I've never heard of the company, but they look pretty solid.  No pricing on the website though.  Capo, who makes those direct mount cylinders?  This is definitely somthing I've been looking into to clean up my front end. 

For your bobber project, PB, I agree with you.  You're probably not going to throw that thing around in the twisties too often and the reservoirs welded into the bar would look pretty trick.  Speaking of which, did you decide to go with the flat bars?

You can argue it either way, I don't see what the problem is.

Too low?  As long as the system is bled properly, and the bike isn't upside down, I fail to see how any air is going to make its way through the reservoir, down the line and into the master.  Unless you are leaning the bike over 90deg, and even then I doubt it.

If there is enough fluid, and enough space in the resi, and a diaphragm there, I don't see what the problem is. 

If it's condensation you are worried about, you can always bleed the brakes periodically to solve that problem. 

In that case everyone out there that has replaced the reserviors with metal ones should be worried as well.

The rear brake resi/piece of line will work fine, but the front system moves a LOT more fluid, hence the resi needs to be much larger.

Never heard of AP racing?  Right up there with brembo for real race stuff.

You can also machine a reservoir that would mount directly to the master cylinder.  Seen that, done that, works fine as well.  I'll look for a pic.(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n88/triplethreat_05/reaper016.jpg)

There is allways these

(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/ISR_3.jpg)

Jarvicious , the 'pipe reservoir' can be obtained here http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/home (http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/home)
Be sure to check out the rest of his site if you are into weight saving

^^^ Those are beautiful  ;D

^^^ Agreed.  These are sites I don't need to be looking at.  Then again, I guess it's better to look at the high end shit like this than at Cyclegear or some other site where I'd be much more inclined to pick up something frivolous (and cheap).  The direct mount reservoir is so god damn clean. 

You can also easily make the "pipe reservoir" by searching around for the proper tubing.  I might even have some of it in the garage somewhere (as I've done this with my rear brake).

yeesh, pricing for that "pipe" reservoir is about $136, before shipping from wherever they are at.  Seems like a lot for a piece of plastic tube and some caps...

TAft, can you detail what you used for yours?

BTW, I'm very curious to see what you're doing with you're bike, what with all the parts you're selling off of it...(something wickedbadassawesome?)

Tygon 2075 is the correct tube to use, has been used by plenty before.

Durbahn's kit comes with a neat little machined nipple, but the stocker seems to work just fine for me.  His also has a cool knurled plug on it.  I used a knurled fastener, and turned the threads off.  A bit of safety wire, and whala.

My bike?  Cut the rear subframe off it, and making an aluminum subframe for the tail.  Undertail exhaust, and all that jazz.   I can't decide between a 1098 tail and similar short can exhaust setup, or a jap tail/exhaust setup.

Other obsticle to overcome is the seat, and how to make it.  I've got to make the seat from from the indentations in the monster's tank into whatever tail I choose.  It's one of those things I've never attempted before....but anything can be done given time and some fab work.

If you haven't used it before, blue or pink insulation foam works WONDERS for mockups.  You can cut until your hearts content and even add more if you make the beast with two backs up and go too low.  Might be a cool project to build a saddle out of insul foam, pour a mold in plaster of paris and then pour a real seat out of ballistics gel or some other cushy substance (a la Mythbusters).  If you mount the blue foam correctly you could even take it on short test rides.  With the right support the stuff is pretty sturdy. 

Errrrr, end threadjack.  Let us know if you go through with the direct bar mount res. 

How does that fit into the MC?  The OEM plastic piece appears to be threaded (I haven't disassembled it).

The plastic piece is not threaded, just held in place in the seal by a flange.

I've looked at mine, and I didn't see a seal, nor does my shop manual show one.

How do you remove the elbow fitting/seal?

It just pops in/out.  It's more like a nipple, as shown in the durbahn pic  [thumbsup]

On another note, it's startling how inaccurate/wrong SO MANY things are in the factory service manual.  There are plenty of places in the fac manual where there should be at least SOME detail to the assembly of parts.  Take for instance the water pump seal.  No where in the manual is there a picture or even a text description of how the white plasic thrust washer is supposed to install....groove side in or out.  Better make sure you take pics when pulling it off.  Local dealer scoffed at me when I asked the question, and then couldn't answer it after reffering to their "expert tech".   [bang] [laugh] [roll]  Luckly I had a 999 sitting next to it, and had to disassemble that to confirm...

  It's areas like that where the Japanese really shine through.

Thanks Theo.


Yeah, I photograph anything that's more than three steps!!!   [laugh]

I have a few comments to add.   

first, along with the obvious pumping volume, thermal expansion also needs to be considered when determining reservoir size.  brakes are an open system, when they heat up the fluid expands and the excess volume is displaced into the reservoir.  when the brakes cool and the fluid contracts it is drawn back in.  so any home made reservoir will have to have enough volume to accommodate that.   also it will need to either be vented to the atmosphere (not a good idea) or have a diaphragm seal to allow the fluid to move easily into and out of the reservoir.  if vented to the atmosphere the fluid will absorb moisture from the atmosphere and you would risk spillage (obviously).  running into either end of the reservoir would be really bad news, no brakes or locked brakes. 

i could not imagine a piece of 22 mm (OD) tube welded to the handle bar having sufficient volume to work properly with the front brakes of a modern sport bike. 

second, dot 3 or 4 is fine with aluminum.  the calipers, masters and light weight line fittings are all aluminum and if you were to open them up they are usually uncoated bare aluminum.  in fact i just rebuilt the 28 year old caliper on the honda and once i got the pistons out, the interior of the caliper was pristine and shiny.  entrapped water can cause corrosion, specifically with iron automotive calipers (bleed early, bleed often).   

third, those ISR's are pure sex

fourth, good job on your res. TAftonomos, i like it.

this is not an area to play around with if you do not understand the mechanics involved with pushing those little pads into that spinning rotor.  be safe. 

Just to clear it up, thats not my work, but someone elses I posted an image off of.  I was just showing another way of mounting a resi, not wanting to take credit on someone else's work (wasn't the intention).

Good to know about brake fluid and aluminum!

You don't need much volume for any of the current brake systems, but you will always have a little air at the top of the system and the thermal expansion definately has to be accounted for (although very little). With that tiny about of air at the top, the lean alges of modern sport bikes does create a problem - again, FHE.

I'm slowly replacing mine - 2 of 3 so far - with the Rizoma reservoirs.  The reservoirs are nice, but I really like the clutch & front brake brackets.
http://www.pjsparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=267_46&products_id=632 (http://www.pjsparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=267_46&products_id=632)

OK, this is the first time i have ever actually put numbers to this.... if you see an error, please feel free to correct me. 

IIRC the pistons in most 4 pot MC calipers are  34mm each, lets say each piston needs to move 1mm to apply full stopping force...

(17mm^2 x 3.14) x 1mm x 8 (pistons) =7,259mm^3 or 7.3cc of fluid. 

and i do not car to show my math, but if delta T is 200f the increase in fluid volume (considering the calipers will expand too) would be under 0.5cc. so i guess that is not a huge deal, but still significant

now lets say that welded on res.(22mm OD) has an 18mm ID and is 40mm tall, (9mm^2 x 3.14) x 40mm = 10,174mm^3 or 10.2cc

if you rode that hellion, you would have about 3cc of fluid to spare, which equates to less than 0.5mm of pad wear.  you would have check and top off you reservoir every every long ride. 

f' that 

We don't know average pad wear or the actual distance it actually needs to move to apply full stopping force, so without proper numbers, IMO, it's an exercise in futility. We need more to come up with a proper factor of safety.

Not bad, buy you forgot the fluid that is in the caliper(s), the lines, and inside the bore of the master.  The reservoir is there for some expansion, thats all really.

The brake manufacturers allready did, and sized their reservoirs acordingly.

What aaronb has quatified is the working volume, ie the volume that would leave and return to the reservoir on each application of the brake. The total volume of the system has no bearing on this.

no no, i make the beast with two backsed that up (I was hung over, sorry [laugh]).  I know, the second the lever is pulled the orifice between the reservoir and master cylinder is closed.  so yes, while 7.2cc may be need, that fluid is already in the system. 

i have shamed my family. 

Ok, I've decided to use my bars as the reservoir. The I.D. is 7/16 and the area for the fluid will be no less than about 7 inches wide, which should give me more than enough fluid for both clutch and front brake. I've obtained a diaphragm and cap that I'll hide nicely. My next question is if DOT 5 fluid will corrode mild steel? I can build another set of bars out of aluminum or stainless, but we allready made a set in mild steel that I love.

As long as the bar is above the master, that ought to be cool.  If it's isn't, it ain't gonna work.

I remember seeing a set of cruiser levers with reservoirs integrated into the grips or the lever mount.  Switches for all the usual controls too.  Very low profile and pretty pricey but amazingly clean.  I'm not sure they'd have the volume to move a Dual front Brembo but worth a look.  Now if I can only find the link...

Scott

Found it:
https://www.phatperformanceparts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BDL-HANDCONTROLS (https://www.phatperformanceparts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BDL-HANDCONTROLS)