'05 S4R
I think this happened once before -- when the bike was under warranty.
Now routinely, I shift into first (or rather try to), and there's nothing there. No first gear.
If memory serves (and its not serving well, hence the question) I noticed something similar a few years ago just prior to a scheduled oil change. When I removed the oil drain plug, there was a piece of spring attached to it. I believe it was the shifter fork return spring.
Would inability to access first gear be a symptom of a broken shifter fork return spring?
Thanks,
Dave
There are 2 springs on the shift mechanism.
One is the return spring, it puts the shift lever (and mechanism) back to 'center'.
It's big wire, approximately 3mm diameter.
If it fails, the shift lever will just stay up or down, depending on which end of the spring broke.
You can still shift if you push the lever back to 'center'.
The other spring keeps the shifter 'hook' engaged on the shift drum.
It's smaller wire, IIRC about 1mm diameter.
If it fails, generally you just can't shift, stuck in gear, or similar FUBAR behavior.
Time to pull the left sidecover off to see what's up.
Is there a 7 teeth sprocket to make a new first gear [thumbsup] to hell with top speed ;D
Quote from: Speeddog on February 09, 2009, 03:13:58 PM
There are 2 springs on the shift mechanism.
One is the return spring, it puts the shift lever (and mechanism) back to 'center'.
It's big wire, approximately 3mm diameter.
If it fails, the shift lever will just stay up or down, depending on which end of the spring broke.
You can still shift if you push the lever back to 'center'.
The other spring keeps the shifter 'hook' engaged on the shift drum.
It's smaller wire, IIRC about 1mm diameter.
If it fails, generally you just can't shift, stuck in gear, or similar FUBAR behavior.
Time to pull the left sidecover off to see what's up.
Yay.
Well, I was planning on cover removal anyway...
Addendum:
Check to make sure it's not your external shift mechanism that's keeping you out of 1st.
Not likely the cause, but it's only time invested to check.
Why are you going inside?
This may be fortuitous that it happened now, in that you may save some labor and hassle from occurring a week after you buttoned it up. :-\
If it is one of those springs, take the time to find the broken pieces.
They're not likely to find their way into a bad spot, but they're not 'digestible' either.
For that reason alone I'd not run the engine till it got sorted.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 09, 2009, 05:28:52 PM
Check to make sure it's not your external shift mechanism that's keeping you out of 1st.
+1 - especially if it's ever been down on the left side... The gear lever can get bent so it fouls on the tab on the sidestand that the spring attaches to, and you end up not being able to shift down...
big
You actually got that thing out of first? [laugh]
I keed, I keed.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 09, 2009, 05:28:52 PM
Check to make sure it's not your external shift mechanism that's keeping you out of 1st.
Not likely the cause, but it's only time invested to check.
Why are you going inside?
This may be fortuitous that it happened now, in that you may save some labor and hassle from occurring a week after you buttoned it up. :-\
If it is one of those springs, take the time to find the broken pieces.
They're not likely to find their way into a bad spot, but they're not 'digestible' either.
For that reason alone I'd not run the engine till it got sorted.
I was going to remove the case anyway to have it powdercoated.
Neither spring is broken (so no pieces of metal to retrieve), and the fork return lever is aligned with the center of the drum.
I have yet to "run it through the gears." I'd like a second pair of hands (and eyes) for that.
Will I be able to determine if the gears are all engaging with the flywheel in place?Quote from: bigiain on February 09, 2009, 05:57:34 PM
+1 - especially if it's ever been down on the left side... The gear lever can get bent so it fouls on the tab on the sidestand that the spring attaches to, and you end up not being able to shift down...
The bike has never been down, but there is wear in the shifter hole through which the bolt that attaches it to the rearsets goes. Consequently, there is a small amount of lateral play in the shifter.
Would lateral play in the shifter cause problems downshifting to first gear only?
When I switched my 04 S4R to GP shift and ditched the linkage, I never had a shifting problem again.
I know this prolly doesn't help but maybe something to think about in the future.
So, I used the rear stand and rotated the wheel to shift back and forth between neutral and first. It appears that occasionally the drum does not rotate far enough for first gear. ???
Everything else looks fine. ???
Quote from: alfisti on February 10, 2009, 03:09:26 PM
When I switched my 04 S4R to GP shift and ditched the linkage, I never had a shifting problem again.
I know this prolly doesn't help but maybe something to think about in the future.
I was thinking of this, but since it's not a possibility with the Bandit (sidestand in the way) I don't want to go that way.
..... something obstructing the lever, so it's not travelling far/deep enough? ...... linkage too loose to push far enough? ...... lever adjusted so far from stock that it's not pushing in the "right" direction?
I have no idea, just trying to think with you ??? Two minds better than one :P (sometimes ;D)
When you are perfectly in neutral, is the arm with the two "claws" centered on the shift drum? You might need to tweak those parts a little bit. I've done that before. I have also added a 2nd mounting hole to the shift arm on the shift shaft so that there is a shorter throw.
Also check the huge bolt on the back of the engine. It holds the spring and ball bearing that are the detent for the transmission.
:) Chris
Thanks Chris.
Yes, the shift fork is centered, but I'll double check. I'm a little uncertain as to the direction of adjustment required, but I suppose as long as I know where I started it'll be OK.
It's odd, because on some shifts into first it works fine, and on others not.
Regardless, I'll check the bolt at the back of the engine.
Quote from: chris on February 11, 2009, 12:47:35 AM
When you are perfectly in neutral, is the arm with the two "claws" centered on the shift drum? You might need to tweak those parts a little bit. I've done that before. I have also added a 2nd mounting hole to the shift arm on the shift shaft so that there is a shorter throw.
Also check the huge bolt on the back of the engine. It holds the spring and ball bearing that are the detent for the transmission.
:) Chris
Quote from: pompetta on February 11, 2009, 04:09:37 AM
Thanks Chris.
Yes, the shift fork is centered, but I'll double check. I'm a little uncertain as to the direction of adjustment required, but I suppose as long as I know where I started it'll be OK.
It's odd, because on some shifts into first it works fine, and on others not.
Regardless, I'll check the bolt at the back of the engine.
I've heard of that peg that centers the arm loosening. It will look right, but when you go to shift it moves...because it's loose.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 11, 2009, 04:43:57 AM
I've heard of that peg that centers the arm loosening. It will look right, but when you go to shift it moves...because it's loose.
Thanks Nate. The shift rod is held on with a circlip. Do you mean that the retaining bolts (18 and 20) are loose?
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d147/pompino/gear_sellector.jpg)
BTW, is there a home-made alternative to the Ducati tool for holding the flywheel while loosening the flywheel nut?
Also, the shop manual says that I have to remove the clutch assembly to remove the flywheel/generator. Is this right?
Looks different exploded.... :o
I was thinking #15...gearchange lever pin.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 11, 2009, 06:27:21 AM
Looks different exploded.... :o
I was thinking #15...gearchange lever pin.
Hmmm...I'm away from the bike...what the hell is nut/bolt #13/15 securing?
Quote from: pompetta on February 11, 2009, 06:45:20 AM
Hmmm...I'm away from the bike...what the hell is nut/bolt #13/15 securing?
I think that's the eccentric that centers the arm.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 11, 2009, 07:17:06 AM
I think that's the eccentric that centers the arm.
Yep, and if that's loose the center line wouldn't be constant. I'll definitely check that out.
Thanks.
The eccentric bolt #15 adjusts the 'center' position of the shift arm #16, relative to the bracket #23.
This is important, as the 'ears' on bracket #23 (just below and to the right of the #15 'balloon') control the stop position of the rotation of the shift arm.
That eccentric may be maladjusted or loose, which could prevent the necessary amount of rotation.
IME, you have to take the shift assembly off to properly do the adjustment, the locknut #13 is too tight and access is very poor with it installed.
You may need to judiciously grind down a box wrench to fit on the locknut.
You will need an impact gun and suitable size and depth of socket to get the flywheel nut off.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 11, 2009, 09:14:18 AM
The eccentric bolt #15 adjusts the 'center' position of the shift arm #16, relative to the bracket #23.
This is important, as the 'ears' on bracket #23 (just below and to the right of the #15 'balloon') control the stop position of the rotation of the shift arm.
That eccentric may be maladjusted or loose, which could prevent the necessary amount of rotation.
IME, you have to take the shift assembly off to properly do the adjustment, the locknut #13 is too tight and access is very poor with it installed.
You may need to judiciously grind down a box wrench to fit on the locknut.
You will need an impact gun and suitable size and depth of socket to get the flywheel nut off.
Thanks Speeddog.
From that exploded view, I'm just not seeing how the eccentric bolt does its job, but I do understand what you are saying.
Ah, now I get it. :)
I just got back from lunch and checked the nut #13, and its good and tight. It doesn't seem likely that its the culprit, but I'll take a closer look tonight.
The Ducati tech at the local shop recommends moving the shifter fork toward the rear of the bike a bit. That should rotate the drum a little further when shifting into first.
I'm gonna try this tomorrow...perhaps move it 5mm. To do so, I think I have to loosen both bolts #18 and #20, right?
Any thought/opinions?
Quote from: pompetta on February 13, 2009, 06:48:24 AM
The Ducati tech at the local shop recommends moving the shifter fork toward the rear of the bike a bit. That should rotate the drum a little further when shifting into first.
I'm gonna try this tomorrow...perhaps move it 5mm.
Any thought/opinions?
I think I'd try a couple of mm at most.
5 is .2". That's way more than a bit.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 13, 2009, 06:54:40 AM
I think I'd try a couple of mm at most.
5 is .2". That's way more than a bit.
OK, thanks.
I have to loosen
both bolts, right?
Quote from: pompetta on February 13, 2009, 07:12:33 AM
OK, thanks.
I have to loosen both bolts, right?
I
think so...
Loosen one more than the other. You need some resistance so it will stay where you put it.
Yes, you have to loosen both bolts.
Why they've got 2 different size bolts, I don't know.
Seems like a 'fix' for initially having one, that they found wasn't enough.
I'd go for 1 mm to start with.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 13, 2009, 08:22:06 AM
Yes, you have to loosen both bolts.
Why they've got 2 different size bolts, I don't know.
Seems like a 'fix' for initially having one, that they found wasn't enough.
I'd go for 1 mm to start with.
Wow, OK. Thanks Nick.
OK, so I made a Sharpie mark on the shifter drum, loosened both bolts, and moved the fork back about 1 mm. It seems to have made a difference, but with the additional play in the shifter rod (#16; because the cover is off) , it's difficult to tell whether or not the adjustment made a substantial difference. Occasionally, it does not go and takes a second try. According to spec, I torqued the 8mm and 6mm bolts to 25- and 9 N•m respectively.
It will be a pain in the ass if I have to remove the alternator cover later to adjust this again, but at least now I know how to do it.
Thanks for everyone's input. [thumbsup] [moto] [beer]
That said, additional comments/suggestions/advice are welcome. :)
If it's of any help, we sell alternator cover gaskets that we have custom made for us. Until those, I dreaded taking that cover off.
Quote from: chris on February 15, 2009, 05:33:00 PM
If it's of any help, we sell alternator cover gaskets that we have custom made for us. Until those, I dreaded taking that cover off.
Yeah that looks nice. I think I'll order one plus a spare. Do I also use the "gasket in a tube" stuff in addition to the fiber gasket?
Quote from: pompetta on February 15, 2009, 05:56:59 PM
Yeah that looks nice. I think I'll order one plus a spare. Do I also use the "gasket in a tube" stuff in addition to the fiber gasket?
No, I use them plain. Even after a couple years in service, I have yet to have one of these tear. This is one of my favorite products.
Quote from: chris on February 16, 2009, 03:08:27 PM
No, I use them plain. Even after a couple years in service, I have yet to have one of these tear. This is one of my favorite products.
Thanks Chris. I ordered both the alternator and clutch side gaskets last night.
Quote from: pompetta on February 10, 2009, 04:17:17 AM
The bike has never been down, but there is wear in the shifter hole through which the bolt that attaches it to the rearsets goes. Consequently, there is a small amount of lateral play in the shifter.
Would lateral play in the shifter cause problems downshifting to first gear only?
Is it possible that the lateral play in the shift lever is robbing it of some of its rotational movement?
If that's the case, maybe the shift drum requires just a hair more rotation to downshift into first than it does for the other gears.
When there's no lateral deflection of the shift lever, no problem downshifting to first and when there is deflection, no downshift?
Quote from: Rameses on February 19, 2009, 08:59:38 PM
...When there's no lateral deflection of the shift lever, no problem downshifting to first and when there is deflection, no downshift?
I can't test "no deflection" right now 'cause the alternator cover is off. I moved the shift fork back 1mm and tomorrow I'm putting the cover back on, but I can't ride the bike 'cause I'm waiting for that make the beast with two backsin' seal on the clutch-side cover. :-\
Quote from: pompetta on February 20, 2009, 05:03:04 AM
...'cause I'm waiting for that make the beast with two backsin' seal on the clutch-side cover. :-\
But at least it's comin' from Chris Kelley so you know it'll be there quickly. ;)
Quote from: Rameses on February 20, 2009, 07:04:11 AM
But at least it's comin' from Chris Kelley so you know it'll be there quickly. ;)
I bought gaskets from Chris -- they arrived yesterday by USPS. The oil seal is for the oil feed into the crank. The one I need is for the testastretta motor (I bought a used case of eBay), and I ordered it from Barnetts.
Quote from: pompetta on February 20, 2009, 08:18:26 AM
I bought gaskets from Chris -- they arrived yesterday by USPS. The oil seal is for the oil feed into the crank. The one I need is for the testastretta motor (I bought a used case of eBay), and I ordered it from Barnetts.
From Barnett's? :o
You might be hosed.
Why didn't you order it from Ducati Seattle??
Quote from: Rameses on February 20, 2009, 08:26:17 AM
From Barnett's? :o
You might be hosed.
Why didn't you order it from Ducati Seattle??
Ducati parts I order from Barnetts arrive within 5 days.
Last week I ordered a few bearings on Monday, and they arrived on Wednesday afternoon -- TWO days, and no shipping charge.
UPS ground from Washington state takes a week.
Quote from: pompetta on February 20, 2009, 08:30:03 AM
Ducati parts I order from Barnetts arrive within 5 days.
Last week I ordered a few bearings on Monday, and they arrived on Wednesday afternoon -- TWO days, and no shipping charge.
UPS ground from Washington state takes a week.
A couple extra days and a shipping charge is worth it considering there's no sales tax, a 10% discount, it comes to my front door, and I don't have to deal with the guys at Barnett's. ;)
(Not to mention I know I'm going to get the right part when I order from Ducati Seattle.)
So, the shifting problem is fixed. Even though I have to fix a leaky oil sight glass after removing the case cover for powercoating and re-using the original sight glass, ( [roll] ) the bike runs great.
The problem was due to one or both of the following:
1) adjustment was needed in the shifter fork;
2) the Cycle Cat shifter lever had no brass bushing and the hole was worn so as to create a lot of lateral play in the shifter lever.
Both Speeddog and the local tech recommended moving the shifter fork rearward 1 or 2mm and I did.
I also drilled/filed out the Cycle Cat shifter lever hole to accept an OEM Ducati brass bushing. When bolted up, there is very little play in the lever.
It now shifts like new!! ;D
Quote from: Rameses on February 20, 2009, 08:26:17 AM
From Barnett's? :o
You might be hosed...
The oil seal arrived in 3 days. ;)
Glad you got it sorted! :)
Quote from: Speeddog on March 04, 2009, 04:31:12 PM
Glad you got it sorted! :)
Once again, with your help! :) [beer]
Glad you got it fixed - this is a GOOD place, the DMF
I like following a complete thread like this one to a happy ending (cue the smartass remarks!) ;)
Quote from: bozcoRob on March 04, 2009, 07:04:20 PM
Glad you got it fixed - this is a GOOD place, the DMF
I like following a complete thread like this one to a happy ending (cue the smartass remarks!) ;)
I just hope that with a few more years experience, I'll be as useful to others as a few here have been to me. [thumbsup] [moto]
Quote from: pompetta on March 04, 2009, 07:32:26 PM
I just hope that with a few more years experience, I'll be as useful to others as a few here have been to me. [thumbsup] [moto]
Or, you could be some others and whine about how your Duc keeps breaking. [roll] (not pointing to anyone in this thread, though).
Glad you got it sorted out. My Cycle Cat lever has a fair amount of play, but I've yet to have a problem down-shifting.
Quote from: Jobu on March 04, 2009, 11:51:54 PM
Or, you could be some others and whine about how your Duc keeps breaking. [roll] (not pointing to anyone in this thread, though).
Glad you got it sorted out. My Cycle Cat lever has a fair amount of play, but I've yet to have a problem down-shifting.
When the lever play gets annoying, it's an easy fix. You'll need the Ducati OEM brass bushing. I might order a 15mm drill bit just for shits and giggles.
Quote from: pompetta on March 05, 2009, 03:40:46 AM
When the lever play gets annoying, it's an easy fix. You'll need the Ducati OEM brass bushing. I might order a 15mm drill bit just for shits and giggles.
Cool. I think I'm bringing the bike over to your place on Saturday when Dildo comes over to finish putting his bike back together. I'll let you see if the lever has similar as yours and I'm also planning on changing out the reservoirs and flushing the brake/clutch fluid.
Quote from: Jobu on March 05, 2009, 07:11:05 PM
Cool. I think I'm bringing the bike over to your place on Saturday when Dildo comes over to finish putting his bike back together. I'll let you see if the lever has similar as yours and I'm also planning on changing out the reservoirs and flushing the brake/clutch fluid.
Sounds good, see you then!!
Are yous announcing a tech day in MROC?