Ducati Monster Forum

hello all  [roll]

I am just wondering if it its possible for knee down madness with my monster i don't have any chicken strips on the rear tire and i feel as if i have the bike cracked over as it will go and alas still no knee down!?  :'( so im just wondering is it possible or not with the monster? or am i going to have to try a new riding style to get the holy grail of knee down ^.^

cheers

wulfie.

The short answer is "Yes, it is possible."

The better answer is that you shouldn't be focused on it.  I know its tempting to want to get your knee down, but having it be a goal of street riding is pretty dangerous.  Similarly, you shouldn't be focused on your chicken strips.  That another way to run of out of luck (and traction) earlier than you intended.  I'll also tell you that the bike can go a lot further over than you're going and that you can hang off the bike a lot more than you are doing.  That said, it's probably not a great idea to keep testing the lean angles.  Just focus on your body position and on getting off the bike.

If you really, really want to get your knee down, go a parking lot and ride in tight circles with your monster.  Hang way off and you'll get your knee down.

For reference, here's a thread about clearance on a monster with some almost-knee-down pics (from about five years ago):  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11443.0

What Spidey said.  I've yet to put a knee on the pavement, but it's very doable ~

JM

Sign up for Lee Parks 'Total Control' classes.. they will have you putting a knee down at 20 mph in a parking lot... goal achieved.

I wouldn't focus on it as said above.

The monster likes to grind hard parts when put at an extreme angle. (I hit my kickstand constantly)

If you really want the knee to touch get your ass further off the seat.  ;D

Thanks for all the info  ;D I'm not totally intent on getting my knee down  i was more wondering if it was possible i mean Ive have the usual clearance problems when i got the bike at first *I managed to grind the front peg's & brake & gear leaver* but that all got sorted with proper suspension set up, as for the chicken strips i don't have any i find it very easy to get rid of them with the standard size tires *120/60ZR17 & 160/60ZR17* for the bike and i don't really think of them i was more meaning that if I'm hanging off the bike far enough to already be getting rid of the strips i cant be that far from almost getting my knee down? :P

Errr.... hanging off the bike more will actually lend itself to bigger chicken strips.  Putting more of the riders weight to the inside of the turn lesses the lean on the bike at a given speed.  So if you're properly hanging off the bike... and to the edge of your tires.. um you aught to be going 142 on a 620. 

But maybe I'm a little confused here.. something doesn't add up to 100% in my head when I read your last post.. so perhaps I'm not 100% understanding

Getting your knee down for the first time is something you'll never forget-- one of those milestones of riding--so I understand where you're coming from but I'd recommend taking it to the track where you'll be in a perfect environment to improve your riding skill and also possibly get your knee down in the process.. and maybe even learn getting your knee down doesn't mean faster than no-knee-down. btw just because you dont' have chicken strips doesnt really mean much.. a person leaning away from the bike (dirt style) will get rid of their chicken strips very early while being far from knee down.. good luck..  [moto]

Get the TOTAL CONTROL book by Lee Parks. It's great. Everyone so far has given pretty sound advice. What I've learned about getting that knee down is that it's NOT about speed, but it's far more about body position.

Here I was at about 20mph on Pilot Road tires (Taking the TC course with Lee Parks):

(http://www.filesavr.com/second/7f6021a629d280bfec5a9575fc165f26.jpg)

Body position is everything, especially on the Monster. Remember to turn your shoulders in the direction of your turn, a lot of riders forget that crucial move. If you are in the correct position say for a left bank turn, you should notice that:

1) Your right elbow is against the right side of the tank (or very close) but relaxed.
2) The right side of your chest is against the tank (or very close to it).
3) Your left wrist should feel taught the weight of your body falling gradually over towards your left arm.
4) Your right leg is wide (but snug) on the tank, but firmly squeezing your right foot and heel into the foot grip. 
5) Your shoulders are twisted in the direction of the turn.
6) Your head is focused on looking THROUGH the turn.
7) Your derrier is far to the left, your left leg is out in a natural leaned position.
8 ) You are RELAXED - you have to breath. Taking a deep breath before you initiate this process is VERY helpful to get your body down in the right position.

Just look at Lee's body position:

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w56/vegaser1c/Lee%20Parks%20Phoenix%20Feb%2024%202008/leeparks00003.jpg)

and again:

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h268/vegasvideo/Lee%20Parks/arc-145.jpg)

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h268/vegasvideo/Lee%20Parks/arc-028.jpg)


I don't think that I've forgotten anything, but really, reading the TC book will really help you conceptialize this process.

Oh, one more thing, don't EVER try and ride on the road as though you were on the track.

read the book last summer.
i misunderstood some of the concepts, but it was a great book. the section on cornering really helped my skills.
the book could use a little more on body positioning, for me anyway.
im into "twist of the wrist II" right now, a much more detailed read.

Good book too. Very different writing styles. I'd recommend both to just about anyone.  [thumbsup]

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/Monkeyrobb/Motorcycle/Leftkneedown.jpg)

The side stand will usually hit first on left turns, so watch out.

notice that in this pic the knee would be down long before now if the rider opened up the hip and extended the knee.   The knee comes closer to the bike as you go farther over.   So you could carve off big chinks of knee slider at a lesser angle of lean than this.

So yes, monsters are not a limiting factor.   NuTTs, a member here from Spain, used to grind down pucks and most of his boot on his RS on the track.

Great shot!  [thumbsup]

I was just discussing this today with a rider.  It's not as easy to get knee down on a monster if only because the bars are soo wide that you are almost forced to get crossed up to reach the uphill bar.  at least that's my experience.  But then, I tend to drag my knee a little crossed up.  Think arse off the seat, but my head is above my hand.

http://bikerpunks.com/mediaviewer/1906/knee-down-with-the-gold-wing.html (http://bikerpunks.com/mediaviewer/1906/knee-down-with-the-gold-wing.html)

Check out this guy on a Gold Wing!!  [laugh]

I actually found it easier than on a super bike cause the bike sits lower.   Go to the track and get that figured out.  I've never had mine down on the street and I don't plan to. 

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster%20track%20day/tattoo-2-065.jpg)

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster%20track%20day/tattoo-2-151.jpg)

Imagine having Lee Parks tell you that you're "Scaring the shit out of me" because you're leaning the bike more than he does!  That was my experience during the Level I class a few weeks back.  Translation: getting a knee down is (much) more about proper body positioning than bike lean angles.

You can tell from both of these shots that the body position is good but not perfect. Look at how the left arm is out away from the tank and stiff, and the riders head is not looking through the turn, and the body isn't tight in with the tank which would make the turn feel much different.

Notice here how Lee is far over in the direction that his bike is traveling and looking way through the turn as he executes the turn:
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h268/vegasvideo/Lee%20Parks/arc-028.jpg)

This is a great example of body position being tight against the tank as well:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/Monkeyrobb/Motorcycle/Leftkneedown.jpg)

Getting that position perfect isn't hard and requires a lot of practice. The Monster handle bars don't make it easy to drop an elbow as tight as is really needed, but it can be done with practice. The lessons learned in TC course really made a significant difference in the way that I move with my bike.

That's Yellowwolf...  he's a regular at the Gap...  how about this one...

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/tyler.jpg)

Different guy, same road...there's a reason they call him "the Awesome" up at DG

Great body position.  +1

Bad that it's out on a regular road. -100

That guy is mad, great shot.
I just dont have the balls to get my knee down.
Don

same road that this one was taken on... but I was on a borrowed bike with bald tires  [bang]\
would have been alot more fun with some good rubber. and its far from a regular road. the surface is smooth and grippy like a track.. its quite nice

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/rep5-2.jpg)

i'll post one at the track too if it makes anyone feel better

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/damien311/leanit.jpg)

My body position is much improved over last year.  Still need to get that elbow out.

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster-madnessweb-1.jpg)

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monsterkneethunder.jpg)

Here is my gixxer!
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/Barber/dviantimages/Photo1.jpg)

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/Barber/dviantimages/Photo5.jpg)

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/Barber/dviantimages/Photo9.jpg)

I met that guy when I was at deals gap.  The guys on race bikes, with race fairings with lights attached and slicks are funny.  It's just different down there.  Plus,  take a look, he's dragging elbow!!!!   Not sure I'd have the balls to do this on a public road but to each his own.  I guarantee that guy has a lot more control riding like that than you or I. 

Great work! Keep it up you'll get it! Remember to breath too! That will help you relax that elbow a bit.  [thumbsup]

Interesting comment.  When I went to Spencer's school, a few guys were scolded for using too much lean.  I was also fortunate enough to attend Schwantz' school, and he said that he rarely touched his knee to the ground when he raced.

Few pics of my bud at the gap

(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5230/gap1j.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7136/gap2.jpg)

I thought I'd post one of the "War Wagon".....

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/Terry_178.jpg)

Here's a question:

I have heard from people not to drop your knee unless you plan on putting it on the ground. They say its a bad habit? Anyway I have this mentality now that if I lean in I can't pull my knee off the bike unless I plan on getting it to the ground. judging from what I have seen here I assume that's not true?

I would say there is nothing wrong with putting you knee out when not intending to put it on the ground. For one it gets more of you weight off the bike. Secondly it gives you a way to finely adjust your weight during the turn.

Every track school I've been to they've told us to get our knees out there regardless.

My take on your question goes back to the question of where you are riding. If you're riding on the road, then you really should never be out there putting a knee down. Riding like that on the road is risky. I know that's a personal opinion, but it's unsafe to ride on the road like you'd ride on the track.

Regarding it being a bad habit or not, lots of people have various opinions about this. I'd be more inclined to say that the majority of the people who ride ( like idiots on the road) like that, put a knee out because they think that it looks cool but have no concept of what it really means to attempt to do that. However, if you're taking your bike to the track, it can be very good practice and help you as Charles said to get a better feel for what it feels like to start to move your body in that direction.

You have to keep in mind though that throwing a knee out is about the last thing that really makes any difference in getting your body into the proper position. If your body position is good, all that you will need to do is literally "drop" your knee. If you're pushing it out, you're not in the right position. And keep in mind that you can get to maximum lean angle without ever putting a knee down if you're in the proper position. Exercising the practice is only going to help you if you're working on the whole overall position (arm, elbow, shoulders, back, hips, feet, and knee). If you know anyone who's skilled and not out to "hot dog" around, ask them for advice, to follow you, or to take pics of you as you go through turns on the track. Pictures are hugely valuable to help you see your position and mark the areas where you need to refine your posture. If you're feeling nervous or tense while working on your position, take a deep breath and release it before you move into position and relax. You'd be surprised at how many people forget to breath.


[thumbsup]

That's a good point about proper body position being the most important thing. I have seen people on the track who you could tell were just trying to get a knee on the ground without regard for proper body position. I remember one particular example of a guy who had his rear way off the seat but his torso very crossed up and almost still right above the tank. His knee was sticking out bolt strait and indeed was on the ground. The bike was hardly leaned over and he was actually holding many people up in the corners (beginner track session). So his knee was down but his technique was awful.

Sticking a knee out isn't critical, but it usually requires getting up on your toes and opening up your hips, both elements of good form.  It might be silly on the street, but I think it's good practice on the track.

I guess my opinion is a little different then. I believe that you should stick to a particular body position so that it becomes second nature. Just because your knee's out doesn't mean you need to touch down. Nor does having your knee in mean that you're riding at a safe speed. Having the correct body position is important so I advocate riding with the correct form whether your knee is on the deck or not. If you're never going to a track & are never going to drag your knee then don't bother sticking it out & learn how to ride without doing so.

Just for the record, the other side of the form on the track point is that there are plenty of people who are really, really fast who don't have the "correct" body position & can drag at will. I've good good form & good lines but I'm relatively slow on the track. My friend doesn't have as good form as I do but he smokes me. I still reach a bit with my knee but mostly because it's fun to drag it. ;)

There are more important points to form than your knee but opening your hips & facing the corner exit is important and is one step toward having one's knee on the deck.

Thanks guys great replies. I went out today and really tossed the 620 around since I am feeling more comfortable on her. Tried a lot of the things I have learned from this site and I have to say, between these tips and the new Duc, I feel 100x more confident around corners than I did on my Katana. I found myself really leaning off the bike with much confidence, and my corner speeds and stability were much better.

I discovered that before when I was trying to corner I would just move over on the seat, stick my leg out there, and lean in. I was way crossed up and in no way comfortable. Someone mentioned to "kiss the mirror", and this was the jewel for me. As soon as I got my head down and looking into the turn the rest of my body fell where it needed to be and I was haulin! Only thing I'm still baffled by is counter steer... but I plan on researching that quite a bit.

Of course I'm no Nicky Hayden yet, but I feel like I'm on the right track anyway.  ;D

Thanks guys!  [beer]   

Ever hit a Bots dot when dragging your knee?  Hurts like a motherfu..., er, it hurts.  Loads.

On the other hand, all those old guys on their dustbin fairinged bikes did pretty well before all that knee dragging nonsense came along.  Damn that Ago guy!!!

Yes, I'm old.  But not THAT old.