so, i went to change the oil/oil filter yesterday, and upon removing and inspecting the oil drain plug, i saw this:
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3534/3301237975_63f75b3cf7_b.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3380/3302070982_8fbeac2cf4_b.jpg)
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3404/3302077848_22f0b26bf7_b.jpg)
and filter screen:
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3391/3301251811_229ecba56e.jpg)
so my question is basically "would you be worried if this was your bike?"
i last changed the oil (mobil 1 4T 10W40) about 2k mile ago (~3 months) and don't ride the bike hard or hit high revs. the last (and previous two oil changes; i bought it used last fall) showed no major debris..just a few tiny metal shaving bits at the base of the magnet. it has about 21k miles on the odo. currently. other than that...the only thing about the bike not stock is full Arrows, but they've been on since october or november last year. i haven't changed anything else up, and like i said before i ride pretty conservatively. any thoughts on this are appreciated.
The small pieces aren't alarming to me. The large stuff would worry me I think.
yeah...the metal "fuzz" at the base never alarms me...that stuff always seem to be there on every bike i've changed oil on. it's the chunks/slivers that i'm really asking about.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on February 22, 2009, 03:59:49 PM
yeah...the metal "fuzz" at the base never alarms me...that stuff always seem to be there on every bike i've changed oil on. it's the chunks/slivers that i'm really asking about.
Are they kinda round?
It
almost looks like a half ring.
Stripped tread?
check it again in a few hundred miles. check compression.
ferrous bits only come from a few places. could be anything.
this is gonna sound dumb but how do you remove the oil screen?
i seem to recall some sort of "plug" that could back out and leave that sort of trash on the drain plug. I just can't recall what it was called... galley plug? I can't remember... anyone... Bueller?
Found the post I was thinking of... might not be what is going on, but at least it's something to compare to/think about/eliminate.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16577.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16577.0)
With that many miles on it and a previous clean oil change that looks like a lot of debris. This might be ok for a first or second oil change when thngs are still breaking in but not at 21k. You may want to take the shavings to your Duc dealer and get their opinion, if you still have them.
Scott
Quote from: ghosthound on February 22, 2009, 07:10:13 PM
this is gonna sound dumb but how do you remove the oil screen?
depends on the model year
on older models ( < 1998?) there is a plug on the right side bottom. the screen is on the plug.
on later models it is in the same location under the temp sensor, but a separate piece. you need a 14mm hex to take it out. i think it's 14mm.
Quote from: billg69gmc on February 22, 2009, 07:27:25 PM
i seem to recall some sort of "plug" that could back out and leave that sort of trash on the drain plug. I just can't recall what it was called... galley plug? I can't remember... anyone... Bueller?
on mid-90s models, the galley plugs on the crank back out as a result of not being staked and glued correctly (galley plug holes which were used to make the crank). the plug backs out and scrapes the case, producing shavings (from the case). the shavings are ALUMINUM and won't stick to the magnet, only on the screen.
My drainplug looked like this when a main bearing shim went to pieces on my 748. With your finger feel around inside the drainplughole, there might be larger bits inside. Based on my experience I would check for crank endfloat just to be safe.
check your flywheel nut.
I found shavings like that, flywheel nut was loose
hmmm...i appreciate all the responses. sounds like it could be a good number of things, though, which i suppose is really what i figured would be the case. some of them are going to be a bit over my tech-level to check i'm afraid. maybe this is worthwhile to print out some pics of it and take it to AMS to see what they think. then i just have to make up my mind if i'm okay with them playing "detective" @ $100/hr. (i'm due for belt/valve check as it is anyway...this has the potential to be pricey). i'm almost sure their response is going to be that they need to tear it apart.
maybe dropping the oil in a few hundred miles isn't such a bad idea... (unless, of course, something terrible is happening inside right now and goes to hell before a few hundred miles...)
If it's due for a valve check that would eliminate any additional labor if it was a half ring.
It shouldn't take too long to pull the left cover to check the flywheel nut and crank end play while it's off.
I think this is one of those instances where it might be a lot cheaper in the long run to have it looked at now.
Definitely get it looked at NOW! Showing them a photo won't help much. Surgery will be required. As ducpainter said, the alternator nut is a good place to start.
A Ducati engine has a filter to remove microscopic and larger particles from the circulating oil, a magnet on the oil drain plug to remove any particles of magnetic material such as iron and steel, and has a removable mesh screen to capture larger non-magnetic metals such as aluminum and chromium as well as other non-metals such as gasket material. Each time you change your oil you should check your engine's heath by examining them for any unusual amounts of material. This is probably the best reason to change your own oil.
If you've ever seen metal being machined, you'll know that metal chips and machining oil gets everywhere. The finished part is always then sent to a cleaning operation where most of the chips are flushed out of all the tiny crevices. But there's ALWAYS some particles left in complex shapes with internal oil and water passages such as an engine casing. That's why you have both a oil screen for big particles and an oil filter for small ones.
So, seeing a larger number of particles on your drain magnet and oil screen should be expected for the first few oil changes, and then seen to decrease over time unless there's a problem. Here's a way to diagnose problems.
Drain Plug Magnet
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/TranChip.jpg)
It's common to see fingernail-clipping size magnetic particles from normal transmission gear wear. Anything larger should be a concern. Fuzz-like smaller particles on the plug are from normal wear of scores of moving parts, so they should be expected.
Oil Screen
Since it's normal to see aluminum particles from machining operations show up initially on the screen filter, it's important to know about common problems with Ducati engines that also result in particles on the oil screen.
Paul Yoshimune photo
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/OilGalleyPlug.jpg)
70cuda Photo
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/OilPlug.jpg)
The first problem is that the oil gallery plug on pre-2001 model year engines were made of aluminum and would unscrew causing a catastrophic loss of oil pressure that results in big-end bearing failure.
When the plug backs out, it backs into the outer race of the left side crankshaft bearing. The race, being much harder than the aluminum, basically machines down the plug a little at a time until the sliver of the plug drops into the crankcase of the motor and the oil pressure light comes on. At that point, the oil pressure is used to pump the oil through the crankshaft and no oil gets to the rod bearings, crank bearings, or upper end of the motor - because those places all require oil under pressure.
In 2001 steel plugs were introduced that solved this problem but if you have an earlier bike you need to watch for an unusual amount of aluminum particles on the screen. If you spot it in time, you can split the engine case and replace the plug before there is any subsequent damage. It takes awhile for the plug to machine itself off and back-out completely.
To confirm the problem you need to remove the vertical cylinder, pull up on the connecting rod, and look to the left of the rod. If there's a dull silver part of the crankshaft touching the outer race of the crankshaft bearing, you got the problem. The plug should be flush or slightly inset.
The second problem is the design problem with the chrome plating flaking-off the cam-contacting surface of the rocker arms. The best way to know if you have rocker problems is to pull the cams and look, but your dealer won't do this unless you authorize an additional labor charge. Chrome particles on the filter screen will give you a good reason to spend the money to have them do this.
Chrome and aluminum are non-magnetic so they don't attach themselves to the magnet on the drain plug. So how do you tell if you have chrome or aluminum particles on your filter screen? Here's a simple test.
The Test
Draw a small amount of battery acid and put the particles in it. Battery acid is dilute sulfuric acid, so when you add chromium to it you'll get a release of hydrogen bubbles and the chromium will turn the darker violet color of chromium sulfate. Aluminum doesn't react this way.
For you chemistry majors:
2Cr + 3H2SO4 > Cr2 [SO4]3 + 3H2
Quote from: Shazaam! on February 23, 2009, 07:31:53 AM
A Ducati engine has a filter to remove microscopic and larger particles from the circulating oil, a magnet on the oil drain plug to remove any particles of magnetic material such as iron and steel, and has a removable mesh screen to capture larger non-magnetic metals such as aluminum and chromium as well as other non-metals such as gasket material. Each time you change your oil you should check your engine's heath by examining them for any unusual amounts of material. This is probably the best reason to change your own oil.
If you've ever seen metal being machined, you'll know that metal chips and machining oil gets everywhere. The finished part is always then sent to a cleaning operation where most of the chips are flushed out of all the tiny crevices. But there's ALWAYS some particles left in complex shapes with internal oil and water passages such as an engine casing. That's why you have both a oil screen for big particles and an oil filter for small ones.
So, seeing a larger number of particles on your drain magnet and oil screen should be expected for the first few oil changes, and then seen to decrease over time unless there's a problem. Here's a way to diagnose problems.
Drain Plug Magnet
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/TranChip.jpg)
It's common to see fingernail-clipping size magnetic particles from normal transmission gear wear. Anything larger should be a concern. Fuzz-like smaller particles on the plug are from normal wear of scores of moving parts, so they should be expected.
Oil Screen
Since it's normal to see aluminum particles from machining operations show up initially on the screen filter, it's important to know about common problems with Ducati engines that also result in particles on the oil screen.
Paul Yoshimune photo
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/OilGalleyPlug.jpg)
70cuda Photo
(http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/images/dsc/shazaam/OilPlug.jpg)
The first problem is that the oil gallery plug on pre-2001 model year engines were made of aluminum and would unscrew causing a catastrophic loss of oil pressure that results in big-end bearing failure.
When the plug backs out, it backs into the outer race of the left side crankshaft bearing. The race, being much harder than the aluminum, basically machines down the plug a little at a time until the sliver of the plug drops into the crankcase of the motor and the oil pressure light comes on. At that point, the oil pressure is used to pump the oil through the crankshaft and no oil gets to the rod bearings, crank bearings, or upper end of the motor - because those places all require oil under pressure.
In 2001 steel plugs were introduced that solved this problem but if you have an earlier bike you need to watch for an unusual amount of aluminum particles on the screen. If you spot it in time, you can split the engine case and replace the plug before there is any subsequent damage. It takes awhile for the plug to machine itself off and back-out completely.
To confirm the problem you need to remove the vertical cylinder, pull up on the connecting rod, and look to the left of the rod. If there's a dull silver part of the crankshaft touching the outer race of the crankshaft bearing, you got the problem. The plug should be flush or slightly inset.
The second problem is the design problem with the chrome plating flaking-off the cam-contacting surface of the rocker arms. The best way to know if you have rocker problems is to pull the cams and look, but your dealer won't do this unless you authorize an additional labor charge. Chrome particles on the filter screen will give you a good reason to spend the money to have them do this.
Chrome and aluminum are non-magnetic so they don't attach themselves to the magnet on the drain plug. So how do you tell if you have chrome or aluminum particles on your filter screen? Here's a simple test.
The Test
Draw a small amount of battery acid and put the particles in it. Battery acid is dilute sulfuric acid, so when you add chromium to it you'll get a release of hydrogen bubbles and the chromium will turn the darker violet color of chromium sulfate. Aluminum doesn't react this way.
For you chemistry majors:
2Cr + 3H2SO4 > Cr2 [SO4]3 + 3H2
wow ...! Good info; source?
Shizamm ... your not a run of the mill mechanic are you? A Dealership Duc Mec, a Duc Engineer? or are you Duc corporate?