My bike sat for two weeks (often in sub-freezing temps) while I had the case covers powdercoated and waited for the right oil seal to arrive.
Now it won't start. It turns over, rumbled a few times and back-fired three or four times.
I don't have an extra plug to check for spark, but does back-firing imply spark?
Edit: I'm guessing that it does, and I'm gonna swap out the old plugs for new ones.
pretty much. back firing is the combustion of fuel that leaks through valves before they close. sometimes on the intake side, sometime on the exahust side. I am not sure, but i dont think it can ignite without a plug though, the fuel isnt really ment to combust with compression only like diesel.
have you checked the strength of your battery? The cold really weakens them.
I'd remove the plugs...clean them with starting fluid and compressed air...charge the battery and try it.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 26, 2009, 07:26:19 AM
I'd remove the plugs...clean them with starting fluid and compressed air...charge the battery and try it.
+1 What he said.
If the battery is a little low, then the voltage that the ECU sees when the starter is cranking is low.
The ECU does funny things when the voltage is too low, like intermittent spark, etc.
Check to make sure your ground cable connections are good.
I had a bike in recently that had some corrosion on the lug that's bolted to the case.
It would crank a little slow, occasionally backfire, but wouldn't start.
Cleaned off the lug, the bolt surface on the case, a little dielectric grease and bolted it back up.
Cranked great and lit right off.
Okay, I replaced the plugs, no go.
Then, I got to thinking...I put a fiber gasket on the alternator cover, and that might have increased the air gap for the timing sensor.
Sure enough, it was over 1mm!! Spec is 0.6-0.8mm. Well, I sanded and filed and filed and filed and filed and filed and finally got the shim down to where when inserted the air gap is 0.635mm.
The bike turns over, does NOT backfire, but will still not start. :'(
Fuel pump cycling at key on?
Any abnormal activity in the gauges?
Check both connectors on your trigger, sometimes they'll push a contact back.
Latched, but no workie.
Ok, start with the simple shit first. Not saying your dumb just saying always best to start at the beginning.
You need air, fuel, and spark to fire. Unless the world is at an end air is pretty much a given. So, is the tank empty? If not then make sure the the fuel is getting to the throttle bodies. Do you hear the pump run when you cycle the switch on? If take the line off at the throttle bodies and put it in a gas can, cycle the switch and if it shoots out fuel like a mofo then you are good there. (doubtful that both injectors would go bad at the same time so likely they are fine since the bike will run on only one cylinder if you had lost an injector)
Spark, pull a plug wire off the plug and slip a screwdriver in the end of the plug wire making contact with the metal part inside. Put the shaft of the screwdriver close to a ground (like an 1/8 inch away) and crank the bike see if there is spark. (then repeat for the other cylinder)
If you get to the end of this and you have fuel and you have spark then you are more than likely down to a timing issue. Either the timing sensor is still not picking up right or some other little thing maybe a loose connector on a TPS or something stupid like that. Or perhaps a timing belt jumped but I doubt it unless you were in there recently.
PS
just a thought but wrong plug wire going to the wrong cylinder maybe?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 26, 2009, 07:17:03 PM
Fuel pump cycling at key on?
Any abnormal activity in the gauges?
Check both connectors on your trigger, sometimes they'll push a contact back.
Latched, but no workie.
Fuel pump makes normal sound when key turned to on position. Gauges sweep (although sometimes the speedometer does a second sweep).
Which contacts and trigger?
I'm going to check my timing sensor air gap again this evening, check the plugs and try again.
It took me about 4 hours to file that spacer down to 0.4mm! :P
How do you know if you have lost spark or fuel? Have you 100% determined what you are missing fuel or spark? You are chasing your tail until you figure out which one is missing.
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 03:53:47 AM
How do you know if you have lost spark or fuel? Have you 100% determined what you are missing fuel or spark? You are chasing your tail until you figure out which one is missing.
I have checked for spark and its good. I can hear the fuel pump and I can smell gas.
I think I'm on the right track with the timing sensor air gap. It was about 0.6mm out of spec and backfiring. After filing the shim and getting the air gap to spec it is no longer backfiring.
Also, I bellieve my Odyssey shit the bed -- after a full charge it only turns the motor over 5 times or so. When it was new, it would crank the motor all day long.
Quote from: pompetta on February 27, 2009, 04:59:35 AM
I have checked for spark and its good. I can hear the fuel pump and I can smell gas.
I think I'm on the right track with the timing sensor air gap. It was about 0.6mm out of spec and backfiring. After filing the shim and getting the air gap to spec it is no longer backfiring.
Also, I bellieve my Odyssey shit the bed -- after a full charge it only turns the motor over 5 times or so. When it was new, it would crank the motor all day long.
The battery could be the no start issue at this point.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 27, 2009, 05:08:27 AM
The battery could be the no start issue at this point.
I deep charged it, so it would crank fine (5 times or so) and still no start.
I also jumped it with my car battery (car off) and still no go.
Quote from: pompetta on February 27, 2009, 05:13:20 AM
I deep charged it, so it would crank fine (5 times or so) and still no start.
I also jumped it with my car battery (car off) and still no go.
That should have done it.
If you have spark then the timing sensor is working. The air gap should be fine. The only things you are left with is timing belts jumping, wrong plug wire to the wrong cylinder, or insufficient fuel to the cylinders. If you want to completely eliminate fuel there is a method I use.
Fill a spray bottle with gasoline and spray some fuel into the throttle bodies (just a little) before cranking and then while cranking alternate spray between throttle bodies about every 2 seconds. It will run like this if fuel is the problem.
Thats the same as using starting fluid if you dont have open way to get gasoline right now. alcohol would work just as well.
is your area rather humid? I left my bike with out oil and side cases for about a month while i was getting the starter replaced and what did the trick was throwing in some fuel treatment and slushing it around. it would cycle for a whole minute and just kill the battery.
Starter fluid and alcohol are more likely to blow up in your face if the timing is wrong though. (backfire through the throttle bodies) Gasoline is much less flammable and I have never had a problem with it.
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 07:57:30 AM
Starter fluid and alcohol are more likely to blow up in your face if the timing is wrong though. (backfire through the throttle bodies) Gasoline is much less flammable and I have never had a problem with it.
good point, he mention he was backfiring a lot. it could come through the intake valve and up into your face as it ignites.
not sure how the side cases affect starting, but the bike only sat for 2weeks. it shouldnt of caused anything, could it be possible that the side cases werent sealed correctly and alot of pressure is being lost through the gaps?
Quote from: He Man on February 27, 2009, 08:13:11 AM
good point, he mention he was backfiring a lot. it could come through the intake valve and up into your face as it ignites.
not sure how the side cases affect starting, but the bike only sat for 2weeks. it shouldnt of caused anything, could it be possible that the side cases werent sealed correctly and alot of pressure is being lost through the gaps?
Compression is contained between the top of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder head. The side cases would only cause lost crankcase pressure and that really would not affect starting. (maybe leak a little oil but other than that nothing)
The timing sensor setup is based partially on the case covers and that is his concern with the timing.
I would still put my money on a bad battery. Jumping off a car battery might have been OK, but only if it is hooked up really well, with good cables. If the original battery is dead, then go ahead and get a new one, activate it and then top it off with a charge.
Also, if the air temperature there is still low (read 30's and 40's), your bike might not like to start anyway. Did it start before after sitting in cold weather? My 2003 m1000 doesn't start well after sitting for 1 day even at 50deg, and lower than that I might as well forget it.
Quote from: mitt on February 27, 2009, 10:07:23 AM
I would still put my money on a bad battery. Jumping off a car battery might have been OK, but only if it is hooked up really well, with good cables. If the original battery is dead, then go ahead and get a new one, activate it and then top it off with a charge.
Also, if the air temperature there is still low (read 30's and 40's), your bike might not like to start anyway. Did it start before after sitting in cold weather? My 2003 m1000 doesn't start well after sitting for 1 day even at 50deg, and lower than that I might as well forget it.
I'm betting its a combination of a bad battery and something that I did.
I checked plugs for spark yesterday, and I have fire. My problem must be related to the timing sensor -- it was out of spec a lot. I re-checked it this afternoon, and the gap is 0.711mm -- within spec. I know it doesn't take much, but I'm stumped. I never disconnected the stator, just unbolted it and left it attached to the bike. When I reinserted the timing sensor, I did so when the cover was off the bike, so I know its positioned correctly with the o-ring seated. The only thing I "changed" was the air gap of the sensor, and I now have that shimmed to within spec.
However, it is STILL backfiring (wasn't last night) and will not start. Even with a car battery (car not running), it is not turning over fast.
Last night I went over all the steps in my head:
drain coolant
detach coolant hoses
remove timing sensor (left attached and placed in zip-loc bag)
drain oil
remove clutch slave
remove shifter linkage
remove crank inspection cover
bolt-on case puller
remove cover bolts
pull cover
flip over
unbolt alternator wire clamp
unbolt stator bolts
remove stator (placed in zip-loc bag and supported with bungees)
take cover to bench to remove water pump cover, rotor, spacers and bearings.
Only one of these items has to do with timing, and I've addressed that.
Nothing on the clutch side could cause this.
Damn.
The backfiring worries me and I think is the key to the problem. I has NEVER backfired before, and was running great before I removed the make the beast with two backsing covers. I am now regretting that move.
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 09:07:14 AM
Compression is contained between the top of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder head. The side cases would only cause lost crankcase pressure and that really would not affect starting. (maybe leak a little oil but other than that nothing)
The timing sensor setup is based partially on the case covers and that is his concern with the timing.
im a dumbass, i should of known that. its the basics of how a compression engine works. [bang] doh.
When did you respec the timing sensor? Before it wouldnt start or after it wouldnt start? if prior, maybe you can try putting resetting it to the original out of spec gap on it.
It really, really sounds like the timing is off. The backfiring is what makes me say that. An incorrect air gap would not change the timing it would either lose all spark or have intermittent spark which could cause backfiring. SO, how are you checking the air gap? What is the method? Or, take off the side cover again going through the exact steps and when you reassemble instead of using the paper gasket use some ultra grey silicone gasket maker/sealer. I used this on a 916 engine and had zero issue with leaking.
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 01:50:49 PM
It really, really sounds like the timing is off. The backfiring is what makes me say that. An incorrect air gap would not change the timing it would either lose all spark or have intermittent spark which could cause backfiring. SO, how are you checking the air gap? What is the method? Or, take off the side cover again going through the exact steps and when you reassemble instead of using the paper gasket use some ultra grey silicone gasket maker/sealer. I used this on a 916 engine and had zero issue with leaking.
First off, I have the shop manual, so that's where I'm getting my info (+ Speeddog).
To check the air gap, I remove the inspection plug below the water pump and inserting timing gauges.
Spec is 0.6-0.8mm. I re-re-checked the gap this afternoon, and it is 0.711mm.
Removing the gasket and re-assembly is moot (at the moment) since I no longer have the same shim thickness.
Just for shits and grins, I did order all three sizes: 0.6, 0.8, and 1mm. If worse comes to worst, I'll remove the paper gasket and replace the filed shim with the 1mm that was OEM.
All this for powdercoated case covers. :P :-\ [roll]
I'm not trying to be a dick promise. I have found that usually when I work on something and then it does not work properly if I retrace my steps and look hard I usually find some stuipd little mistake that is the cause of my problem.
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 03:38:59 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick promise. I have found that usually when I work on something and then it does not work properly if I retrace my steps and look hard I usually find some stuipd little mistake that is the cause of my problem.
[laugh] I've written on this board several times about problems that were always the direct consequence of my stupidity. This the the premise from which I start when trying to fix my bike! What did I do to cause this to happen? [laugh]
I didn't think you were trying to be a dick.
Quote from: pompetta on February 27, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
[laugh] I've written on this board several times about problems that were always the direct consequence of my stupidity. This the the premise from which I start when trying to fix my bike! What did I do to cause this to happen? [laugh]
I didn't think you were trying to be a dick.
:) Good, I could not tell from your last post and it is hard to read tone of voice on the internet so I just wanted to be sure that I was not coming off as an asshole. Just trying my best to help. I am always worried about that b/c my wife and others tell me constantly I can be a real asshole.
Long story short: When Nick (Speeddog) suggests you do something, do it. Do all of it.
Speeddog suggested I check the ground bolt on the engine case for corrosion and tightness. And, I marched out to the garage and gave a a visual inspection, and wiped some grease from it with my finger. So, all is well.
WRONG!!!
He also said to make sure it was tight. Well, on a second look -- with a wrench --- it was loose...very loose!!!! I tightened it, hooked up the car battery (car not running), and on the fourth crank....
IT LIVES!!!
[beer] [beer] [beer] [beer] [drink]
Thanks to all for your help and ideas, and especially to Nick!!!!!
Quote from: needtorque on February 27, 2009, 04:13:03 PM
:) Good, I could not tell from your last post and it is hard to read tone of voice on the internet so I just wanted to be sure that I was not coming off as an asshole. Just trying my best to help. I am always worried about that b/c my wife and others tell me constantly I can be a real asshole.
Nope.
If I came off terse, it was because I was going from the computer to the garage, sometimes quickly and I was getting discouraged. The last thing that I wanted was a shop charge for some repair that was necessitated by my powdercoating the covers!! :P
Gratz to the fix. good to see you are up and running again.
Quote from: pompetta on February 27, 2009, 04:43:12 PM
Long story short: When Nick (Speeddog) suggests you do something, do it. Do all of it.
Speeddog suggested I check the ground bolt on the engine case for corrosion and tightness. And, I marched out to the garage and gave a a visual inspection, and wiped some grease from it with my finger. So, all is well.
WRONG!!!
He also said to make sure it was tight. Well, on a second look -- with a wrench --- it was loose...very loose!!!! I tightened it, hooked up the car battery (car not running), and on the fourth crank....
IT LIVES!!!
[beer] [beer] [beer] [beer] [drink]
Thanks to all for your help and ideas, and especially to Nick!!!!!
Ya damn fool...
chemists... [roll]
[laugh]