Ducati Monster Forum

Monster 620 i.e. 2003

Yes more questions on servicing folks - after extensive reading mind you. Here goes...

I have read Ducsports post/replies/threads from late last year (2008) see "20,000km service co$t$$$" - some great insights and wise words from Ozmonsters.

I want to do as much as i can in the way of servicing but am certainly limited in knowledge - i have sound common practical sense but i am sure some in here would say don't risk skimping on quality work for the sake of a few bucks. I don't mind paying for quality work however bike places just seemed to be charging some extortionate prices for parts and servicing. After some lengthy reads on this and other related ducati sites I can begin to see how the mechanics of ducatis became a little mystified and how many are attempting to communicate a sense of logic and ease with there workings - just some thoughts anyhow.

Anyways - my recent experience with tank crack fix/respray (what a drama that was) and a couple of parts replacement inspires me to set some time aside to really get to know my bike by getting stuck into some basic/intermediate maintenance routines. Besides I can only see myself upgrading to a new monster so be good to get savvy with my bike.

On the service...

I have spoken to a local car mechanic (he has also worked on a number of bikes and services his own) and he is prepared to complete a service if I can source the parts. A few more questions...

- On Dragonworld's advice I checked out CA-Cycleworks - Found belts n oil filter for my 620 i.e in "Aftermarket Maintenance Parts" listing - am i on the right track?
- I have checked out the CA-Cycleworks vids (great) and also found pic/text instructions - do others change there own belts? Is it as easy as the vid explains?
- Are these parts cheaper than purchasing in Oz or say odering from frazers or nthside Sydney?
- I have checked the servicing schedule on http://www.ducatisuite.com/maintcharts.html (http://www.ducatisuite.com/maintcharts.html) - is there anything else I need to look out for?
- What are peoples' thoughts on having the work completed by a car mechanic? i.e. Am I being being a Nuggethead?

Another topic...

Cracked tank issues - Posted recently a story on housemates knocking over my bike twice (yes 2 weeks apart - infuriating). The results were a fuel leak resulting from a cracked fuel tank, a dent in the fuel tank, busted fuel tank brace, cracked L/H  side panel. Sourced quotes for repairs - one $1100 and another $400 ($400 - I source parts/ remove tank etc). You can guess which one i went for (tight arsed bastard i am). After tank removal and inspection I discovered the piss poor original factory welding that was done on the tank bracket and plate. a couple o spot welds and she'll be right mate. Fair enough - off for repairs then returned four days later - beautiful spray job but even worse fuel leak. Heseus I cried! returned to repairers in troubled state - four more days without my baby. Turns out the plate and bracket needed to be removed, original and new welds ground right back, plate seem welded on all four sides (only seem welded on 3 sides on first repair attempt - not along back) and smoothed in. Poor fellow - he lost money on the job however a tough one and a learning experience for both of us.

Now has anybody else ever experienced a crack like this? I could imagine if your monster has ever been knocked over/crashed with a half to full tank off fuel in its belly then it would more than likely weaken the join around the bracket. Even if someone was considering a respray i would go as far to say - get the bracket welded along the way - it would make for a much better quality and stronger join. Thoughts [thumbsup]

Anyways very interested in view points on 20k service.

Cheers folks,

Nuggethead.

we had lots of the monster, ss and st tanks repaired by a local radiator shop who soldered the whole area up.  i don't recall any leaking again.  mine has been done.

Cheers on the tank feedback Brad.

From the recommendations on this forum wished you were up here to work on my bike - some positive feedback on your work in Melbourne.

What are your thoughts on the parts and service anyways? Know you can't give away to many secrets though.

Nuggethead.

So has the household 750 with no probs 3 years or so down the track. [thumbsup]

FWIW, most people go one of two routes, perform service yourself for the things you feel comfortable with, or take it to a shop that knows ducatis and it equipped to service them.

For the simple stuff,  lot of people buy the workshop manual, the haynes manual, or the desmotimes book, all of which are good.

When you start getting into valve checking and adjusting or adjusting the fueling, it starts getting harder unless your tooled up. Valves are adjusted using shims on ducatis, and this means that a DIY approach would need to purchase a shim kit - lots of money where you only use a small amount or shims, ie the ones that you need to ensure your valve clearances are in spec.

Then there's the subject of fueling adjustments - as you have a fuel injected bike, you'll need the mathesis to adjust, or an aftermaket equivalent, again, a lot of cost for something you'll not use a whole lot.

From  this, most people who are DIY inclined will change oil, chain,sprockets, tension belts etc etc, but leave the specialist stuff to a shop equipped to do it.

I should also note that the people who hang out in Tech on this forum are very very helpful and will assist in guiding you though anything that you're not sure on..

Hope this helps..

Nugget, after my experience I say have a go at whatever servicing you are comfortable with, and back up Goldfishes advice as well.

The tank story is interesting. I am currently in the middle of major tank disaster myself. It started with a small leak at the rear of the tank on my 620 Sport. Further inspection showed an alarming amount of rust in the tank. Once I removed the tank and took it to be treated, is was found that the tank had all but rusted through in about ten or more places, and is basically completely beast with two backsed.    :-[ The bike is a 2003 model. Of course, there is zero interest from the dealer, other than acknowledgement that "They all do that, and anyway, you should ride it more.  [roll]  Fair enough about riding it more. Wish I could. A brand new tank costs $3,300  :o :o

So after much ringing around, and visits to wreckers, I have concluded that:
1. All injected supersport tanks either rust out around the hinge at the rear, or fatigue crack around the rear hinge, or both.
2. All second tanks available fall into one of four categories: ones with rust/cracking around the hinge, ones with repairs of dubious quality around the rear hinge, ones with lots of dents, and ones with all of the above!

So, it looks like I will be going for a new tank off a later model that is rust free and requires some dent repairs and a repaint. Total cost about $950. Rest assured that it will be treated with a plastic lining before being reinstalled on the bike.

So far my beloved Italian money pit (which is worth maybe $9,000 to $10,000 max) will have cost me $3,200 in servicing, rego and tank repairs since december last year.  :(

I know this ducati ownership is not meant to be cheap, but does it have to be this bad? [bang]

Hey Ty
If I were you I would be writing a letter to both NFI and to Ducati Italy with photo's of your tank and a copy of your service recipt.
Don

Unfortunately the lack of numbers of Ducati workshops (Particularly in Vic) means lack of competition, so the available shops dont feel the need to lift their game and be competitive!  [roll]

I dont understand why Ducati servicing and most parts (Not all) have to be so bloody expensive !  ???

My VTR1000 and my SV1000S were substantially cheaper to maintain and service, so how come the more expense for similar bikes?? ie large capacity Vtwins.

I havent really heard a satisfactory explanation other than "Well what do expect?? Its a Ducati!!" and "Its European!"  [roll]

well, the jap stuff use cam chains mostly, which you don't replace, so there's $200 ish in materials alone. labour to fit them should be zero as they have to come off as part of a valve adjustment though and aside from that adjustment labour and replacement shims there's very little that's different.
like every profession there's good and bad, but i wouldn't let a car mechanic work on my bike, in my experience they're not careful enough and can end up causing more damage than the cost of a service by a reputable bike mechanic. add to that there are often special tools required and bodging the job will probably not get it done right and may mark your bike. and unless your car guy worked on mercedes benz in the 20's he's probably got very little idea about desmodromic cams and the damage that can happen when adjustments are done wrong.
   wherever you get your service done take the time to talk to the service manager or the mechanic (tech?) working on your bike and make it known exactly what you have already done, if you have done anything but also make sure you are both aware of what you are getting done. too many people whine about paying too much or not getting particular things done that they thought were part of the service but the shop didn't, so make sure you are both on the same page, if possible, get it written down what will be done, and what the _expected_ charge will be. there's always the possibility costs will be higher (or lower??) depending on what is found, belt tensioner and idler bearings are a good example, and understanding that there is a set amount the shop can go over before a call is warranted is good, but it's nice to get a call about big bills.
   If you're new to the bike chances are you don't know anyone from experience so act on good reports from others and try and build a good raport' with a shop, from what i've read here ron at flywheels is good but aside from NSW i have no idea where you are, try talking to other duke riders around where you ride, most will be frank and honest about their experiences.
good luck, and remember, do what you feel comfortable with and buy your parts from wherever you like but there's little point buying parts on the net then supplying them to a shop to fit, they will be cranky at losing mark up on their stock and bump the labour up to compensate, rightly so in my book.

paul.

Paul, sound advice that. In my case I did what you suggest in terms of discussing servicing outcomes in detail up front, but it still did not result in the actions I wanted. Live and learn.

Yeah Don, I agree. I have been a bit fixated on getting the bike repaired for a sum less than the Aussie economic stimulus package. Having it freshly serviced, with 12 months rego and insurance, and then not being able to ride it is just burning more money  [bang] I think I also need to calm down a bit more before I write any letters......

Ty here's a thought, how about a alloy tank? I had a look at the tank shop and the most expensive tank I could see was 550.00 pounds, convert $1173.77 Oz Dollars, worth a email I would of thought.
http://www.thetankshop.com/ (http://www.thetankshop.com/)
Don

Thanks Don. I have been looking for after market alloy and even fibreglass/carbon tank options. They all offer solutions for the older ducatis and for the 916/996/998/999 series, as there is a big market with the racing crowd. Unfortunately none seem to be interested in the injected supersport series. I even had one guy try to sell me an entire racing frame and bodywork kit. He was a really nice and helpful guy, but the $16,000 price tag for the kit scared me away a bit......In the end I have gone with a late model tank in rust free condition but in need of a dent repair. It seems to be the cheapest way to get a permanent fix, and will retain the original appearance of the bike, which I like. Cheers, ducsport 

the aprilias are a good counterpoint to the ducatis - the rsvr for instance are very much like a cagiva raptor (tl motor) - you check the valve clearances, but it's an exercise in something you really don't need to do and is pretty easy in and out.  altho they do have fairly annoying fork oil replacement shedules, esp with ohlins fitted.

i searched for a few late model jap service schedules and there wasn't a fork oil or fuel filter change specified at any interval, plus yamaha were saying valve clearance checks every 46,000km or something like that.  even a high maintainance jap bike would be 24,000km valve clearance intervals these days.  so there's massively less labour time involved in most servicing.

and the belts are getting outrageous - i was quoted $165 odd each retail for testa belts last week - $330 per pair.  that's as much as most would pay for a jap bike service.

we dropped a fair bit of stuff from our schedules over the years just because it was unjustified and increased the cost - doing fuel filter and air filter every 10,000km, that sort of thing.  back in the early days we were even doing fuel filters and plugs at the first services because that's what we were told to do.  which is part of the issue - ducati specify a lot of stuff for the bigger services, and if you want it all done it takes a fair bit of time.  there's things you could stop doing for sure - even run valve clearances out to every 20,000km if they've been done once properly on 2v motors at least and low revved 4v motors.

but then people get paranoid about whether they're doing it wrong and they talk to another owner who gives them the ducati myth (it comes from both sides) or "you have to do this or you're ruining it" or "if you can't afford it you don't deserve it" (that comes up on this and every other forum too) and the bullshit perpetuates.

so if you advised a customer of yours to skip certain items in his service as in your opinion the schedule is unjustified and just increases the cost, would your business warrant a failure? Ducati services are not cheap, we all know that, especially when compared to jap stuff, but to their credit i have heard of one instance where a bike that was past it's warranty date had a belt fail, and because the belt was genuine and fitted as part of a service, ducati warranted the repair. Ducati have honoured failures on frames cracking on 900SS' after their warranty had long since expired, and i'm sure there's other examples of "good faith". There's plenty of complaining about owners getting screwed over with warranty claims but we usually only hear one side of the story, if the amount of talk about the expense of servicing is taken into account i wonder how much of an effect penny pinching by owners has on the dealer/importers/manufacturers decision to honour a claim or not.


paul.

It is interesting to note that some componentry that Ducati state is to be replaced/checked on servicing is able to "LAST" without replacement or checking at two or more times the intervals on other manufacturers vehicles.

Is the Ducati compenentry of a lower manufacturing standard??  ???

Is this a myth perpetuated by the so called"Race Bred" Ducati heritage?? (Anybody who has raced knows what it takes to keep the steed up to scratch and competitive for the track.) [roll]

And the paranoia and uneasiness created by not doing the Duc servicing and part replacement "By The Book" sort of forces the customer to "toe the line" so to speak.

I've used aftermarket parts for years without a problem, and I've seen "Genuine" Dealers substitue factory parts with aftermarket items with no problems !!  [thumbsup] This usually becomes more prevalent ih nard economic times as shops try to improve their bottom line,........ usually!  [roll]

Of course there are choices in the aftermarket also, some stuff you would seriously  NOT use! A percentage of the non genuine stuff though is actually sold by the companies that make the OEM part for the Factories and is identical in standard and specification.  ;) (Sometimes you woulnt want to use the standard crap anyway as its fairly average ?? )

If you arnt sure, buying stuff from shops like CA-Cycleworks helps to ensure that you are getting quality, as their reputation would suffer bigtime from selling crap componentry.  [thumbsup]

From a consumers point of view, I can appreciate that it at times appears that the customer is being done over by the Manufacturer/Dealer. How many times has a Shop person been all over you like a rash and been very attentive to you until you have made your purchase and then you have suddenly developed contagious galloping knob rot and haliotosis and wont even look at you?? [roll]
Makes it hard to trust and believe in the system??  [evil]

Heh, heh, go Paul and Brad !!  [thumbsup] Who me?? A stirrer??

we didn't recommend skipping stuff that would cause failures.  i'm not actually that much of a make the beast with two backswit.

Wasnt in any way insinuating that mate!! If that had been happening at the Ole M1 it would have potentially reared its ugly head long ago.  ;D

It is more a comment/observation on how a fuel filter (Using that as an example ) will last 10k on one vehicle and yet 20k or more on another if different manufacture?

I got a round about accusation of "you use it to much" when the bottom rusted out of my 748 tank.
I'm still looking for that  usage level that stops rust. [laugh]

Not sure if this has been posted here
http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/ (http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/)
If you can't find a tank at the wreckers, this place could be an alternative to OEM tanks.

i'm not insinuating that either by the way, but if you tell a customer "oh you don't need to do that" and that customers bike fails, whether it's because of what you suggested or not, surely there are going to be "make the beast with two backswits" that will think it is your fault. why leave yourself open to the aggravation that could lead anywhere?
meh, what do i care, it's not my problem, i use bevan.

paul.

Where could I find said shim kit, oh wise one?


Or, could I be able to find a specialist shop to supply only the shims I need?

http://www.emsduc.com/ (http://www.emsduc.com/)



Gowanlochs here in Sydney are happy for me to turn up with my shims and swap them over for ones I select out of their cupboardful of them...

big

Thanks Big. [thumbsup]

$300 US isn't exactly cost effective for something I'll check every 10K.
I might have to get chummy with the blokes at the local shop ;)

Paul,

I also checked out new tank/used fuel tank prices. Was quoted $4000 for a new tank. Think it was Gowanlochs who have cheaper replica tanks or try Eurobrit in Melbourne who i think had second tank for a reasonable price.

Dissapointed to hear others have experienced tank problems. I would follow up on that one for sure - even use some of the quotes from in here to back up your claims.

And on the service...

Sourced belts n bits (OEM) for 20k service from Zagame in melbourne - received next day - cheaper than other nth sydney suppliers.
Bought an Anderson bike stand with the cash i've saved on service labour - well worth the investment.
Bled brakes myself - that was an easy one.
Will change belts, oil, oil filter, plugs, air filter today
Will adjust chain, suspension and do a general check over for loose bits.

Just need to consider valve adjustment and fork oil change.

I think I've come out on top - only time will tell.

Nuggethead

yep! that's the way to do it, no question. i do exactly the same things with the exception of fitting belts, cause they have to be loosened to do the valves anyway it's just as easy for my mechanic to pull em off and replace em.

for anyone who has the basics as far as mechanical ability goes, just start small and do what you can, once you get familiar with the bike it will get easier and you will want to do more. there's always someone here who has done it and stuffed it so you will always find someone who understands what you may have done wrong or can offer good advice before you begin, as for the valves, unless you fully understand what the changes you make may affect, and know what you're doing it's best (in my mind anyway) to leave it to an experienced mechanic, you have to see one to set up the injection on most bikes anyway and it's a LOT cheaper than replacing cams, valves, guides and rockers if you shim it too tight and bind everything up!

once you have your workshop set up to do what you're comfortable with you can spend your saved cash on BLING!!!! [thumbsup]


paul.

When it comes to servicing vehicles I'm all for building a rapport as someone has already suggested.  I'm still trying to work through that with the bike as I don't do a lot of k's but the cars are a different story.  I get my cars serviced by a local guy (call me a lazy bum if you like) who knows me by name and knows my mechanical inclination.  He produces excellent quality work but is prepared to let some unnecessary things slide (by agreement) because he knows that I keep in touch with my cars and will know the warning signs if something is about to go pear shaped. 
The benefits are numerous, he gets a loyal customer who is prepared to pay for a decent job and I get quality work at a reasonable price along with occasional loans of tooling, etc, etc.
Now if I could just find someone closer than OAKLEIGH  to service the bike ...  Sorry Brad.  It's just too far.

Thanks 748s, had a look at their products. Very nice, and seem to be high quality too. Wonder what they would charge for one in raw carbon finish...the ultimate carbong bling? 8) Other than carbon wheels of course Vince.....

And you live how far away??  ;D

 :-[ ;D OK then, well, some people live so far away that they are due for another service by the time they get home.   [moto] ;D

Speaking of which  - nah should really do this in the appropriate thread.  See Melb meet up thread. 

Howdy Ducmiester.
If you need a lift to and fro give me an email.
Just about to set up my bike trailer as well.
Only other place close to us is Eurobrit.
Heather we hear you......
Cherrio.
Madalf.

Thanks Alf.

I guess the bike will be due for a service in the next couple of months so I'll get in touch some time before then.