Ducati Monster Forum

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/05/california-may-soon-require-smog-checks-for-motorcycles/ (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/05/california-may-soon-require-smog-checks-for-motorcycles/)

I think  its a good thing.  I like clean air an all, but sheesh this could be a pain in the ass.  I hope my everybody's non stock exhaust passes.  Good thing I have left the charcoal canister on.    [laugh]

It's more subtle than that. Even with stock exhaust, the bikes come tuned very lean to pass model-based emissions tests. If they start checking them every few years the shops are going to have a lot of business leaning, then richening bikes.

I suspect this is a move to get more revenue for the state, since we have a structural budget deficit.

Retroactive to 2000 is bullshit.  And someone needs to explain to me how this gets a bunch more revenue for the state.  Revenue for smog check places and for shops?  Sure. But the state?

I'm really surprised there isn't a bigger lobby against this. 

Dude we are all screwed if this passes.. But maybe not as screwed as Harley riders..

Part of your smog check fee goes to the state. And the state gets to carve out funds (from the general fund, specific fees on registrations, etc) to set up a bureaucracy around this.

I'd almost support this if there were a grandfather clause. And my catalytic converter was recently "stolen" by the management of the storage unit it sat in (long story) so what am I gonna do? Spend $600 on another cow udder? Ouch.

There's a lot of misinformation out there about bikes and pollution. We've covered it here before. I've had some of my Green (as in party, not movement) friends claim that the average motorcycle pollutes several times the amount of the average car. But there are a lot of problems with that comparison, mostly stemming from the fact that you're comparing one data set with very good data (cars, which are mostly tested) versus one with a small sample size (a few motorcycles that some partisan group pulled in as representative). And there's often an agenda behind that kind of statement.

It seems to me that there is much more low-hanging fruit out there. SUVs, light trucks, and single-person commuters all seem like much larger sources of pollution and/or carbon. I'm wondering: does anyone have solid numbers around how many moto registrations there are in CA vs cars?

Are you really gonna argue that motos are green??  Bikes--despite good gas mileage--are dirty as make the beast with two backs.  I don't wanna have smog checks, but come on, mang. 

I just had the smog test done on my car and only $8.00 of that ass-raping cost was to pay for the certificate, which I assume is money that goes directly to the state.  I'm not positive, but doesn't the testing facility get to keep the money they charge to run the actual test?...anyone know if these testing facilities have to remit a portion of their revenues to the state?

I moved to Cali from Washington State and up there all the emissions testing facilities, like the liquor stores, are run by the state.  If this were the case in CA, then I could see a lot of money being made to get us out of this massive hole we're in.

I suppose there are A LOT of bikes in California though, and at $8 bucks a pop vs. the previous nothing, we're an untapped resource of funds.

this is bad, bad, bad.  and it IS going to generate revenue for the state as dq points out, and it is exactly because motorcyclists don't have a good lobbying group that looks after us, that this shit law will pass.  [bang] [bang] [bang]  

if the law was presented/passed as not including the grandfather clause, then it would be acceptable ... but having it be retroactive to 2000 is absolute bullshit.

if this DOES pass as written with retro clause ... i am going to register all my bikes in another state.  fuc california law makers.

I never stated that. I stated that we don't have good data. And I said that most of the people who've made that argument to me had an agenda...like getting rid of any form of internal combustion engine-based transportation. I'm more of an agnostic on this than a partisan. I want to know whether, on aggregate, motorcycles contribute significantly to the various air quality problems in CA. you can argue that an individual bike is dirty, but how is it dirty? And are there enough of them on the road, being driven every day, to justify a smog check program? As I said before, there has to be lower-hanging fruit...like my truck ;D

The smart move here is to argue against it being retroactive.   Let the law pass, but make it effective on motos sold after it passes (or after it goes into effect).  Few politicians are going to vote against smogging motos, not matter how much of a fuss people kick up.  However, they can be talked into an amendment that doesn't make it retroactive. 

The moto manufacturers should be lobbying hard against this.  I betcha that many of hte bikes in stock trim won't pass.  Or there will be significant damage to the bikes from running them so lean.  That's going to create a giant clustermake the beast with two backs down the line. 

your truck is gay?  [roll]  i keed, i keed.

anyway, back on topic ... motorcyclist that can/do vote need to let their state representatives know that they are voters, and think this is a bullshit proposal (if indeed they have a brain in their heads and can see that this IS a bullshit proposal).

agree ... if not grandfathered this law would make sense.

and if the moto manufacturers were on top of laws being proposed, they would have fought against the other bullshit law that now prohibits sales of minibikes/motorcycles to kids under the age of 12, as THAT law directly impacts their revenues, whereas this bullshit smog law will not:

The new lead rules that have banned the sales of many youth all-terrain vehicles and motorcycles could lead to $1 billion in lost economic value in 2009 for the industry, predicts the Motorcycle Industry Council.

The projected loss is based on 2008 estimated value of the retail marketplace for ATVs and off-highway motorcycles and factors out vehicles and related economic value not included as part of the ban. MIC projects that the estimated value of the retail marketplace related to all youth ATVs and off-highway motorcycles exceeds $1.5 billion, but the ban applies only to products that are intended primarily for youth aged 12 and under. Powersports companies have stopped selling affected youth products with lead content in excess of the limits identified in the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act that went into force February 10.

"The potential losses for the powersports industry are massive at a time when this country cannot afford additional economic losses," said Paul Vitrano, general counsel for MIC and SVIA. "With these vehicles sitting in warehouses instead of on showroom floors, the related sales of most protective gear, accessories, and parts and services are virtually non-existent. Thousands of small businesses across America are impacted by this ban."

Dealers from every corner of the country and other concerned individuals have sent more than 100,000 letters to the U.S. Congress urging support for exclusions from the act for powersports vehicles, parts and accessories. MIC and the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America have spearheaded the massive letter-writing campaign, along with Rep. Tom Self of Missouri, the American Motorcyclist Association, The BlueRibbon Coalition, and Americans for Responsible Recreational Access. MIC's website (MIC.ORG) contains background and updated information about this serious issue facing the powersports industry and has links to tools to contact the Consumer Product Safety Commission and Congress to express support for industry's requests for relief.

Those calling for the exclusions believe that the lead-content provisions of the act, which originally were aimed at toys that can be mouthed by children, were never intended to apply to youth ATVs and motorcycles. Most of the components making up youth powersports products are in compliance. But some parts, that youth would not ingest, unavoidably contain small quantities of lead in excess of the CPSIA limits, such as the valve stems on the tires, aluminum in some brake components, and the terminals on the batteries.

The Motorcycle Industry Council exists to preserve, protect and promote motorcycling through government relations, communications and media relations, statistics and research, aftermarket programs, development of data communications standards, and activities surrounding technical and regulatory issues. It is a not-for-profit, national trade association representing manufacturers and distributors of motorcycles, scooters, motorcycle/ATV/ROV parts and accessories, and members of allied trades such as publishing companies, advertising agencies, insurance firms and consultants. The MIC is headquartered in Irvine, Calif., with a government relations office adjacent to Washington, D.C. First called the MIC in 1970, the organization has been in operation since 1914.

* The economic value of the retail marketplace includes retail sales of vehicles (new and used), parts and accessories, dealer servicing, product advertising, vehicle financing charges, insurance premiums, dealer personnel salaries, state sales and dealer personnel income taxes, and vehicle registration fees.

Use the link below posted by sugarcrook when this topic was first brought up in GMF.

So  basically, I need a new power commander map to make my bike run like shit for two hours or so.....

I can do that.. All fuel table values to -20!

Go ahead...smog my boomtubes..

so rather than pregnant dog about this stupid law, get involved and be a part of the solution ...

ABATE is asking its members (and anyone else that can stand up and be an adult about it) to not contact Fran Pavley, she knows motorcylists don't like her, but to contact the other Senators on this Committee asking them as one of their constituents, to PLEASE OPPOSE SB435.

Please write to this address:
Senate Transportation Committee
State Capitol
Room 209
Sacramento, CA 95814

These are all of the Transportation Committee Members:
Chairman:
District 28 (LA Metro) - Alan Lowenthal
Vice Chairman:
District 29 (LA Metro) - Senator Robert Huff
Chairpersons:
District 05 (Solano and East Bay Delta) - Senator Lois Wolk
District 07 (CoCo, Alameda) - Senator Mark Desaulnier
District 11 (Marin Area) - Senator Joe Simitian
District 18 (San Bernardino) - Senator Roy Ashburn
District 23 (LA Metro) - Senator Fran Pavley
District 28 (LA Metro) - Senator Jenny Oropeza
District 35 (LA Metro) - Senator Tom Harman
District 36 (San Diego Area) - Senator Dennis Hollingsworth
District 39 (San Diego Area) - Senator Christine Kehoe
www.senate.ca.gov (http://)

Screw it... I am just going to buy a Electric Bike from Best Buy  ;D

if this cluster screw of a senate bill passes as written, i am seeing a forum here dedicated to the loaning of stock parts to fellow club members and perhaps a list of folks who can assist with wrenching, so they can pass the smog test. 

I am secure in my fortress of stockdom  ;D

You're getting rid of your bike. You don't count.

The KEY word is Trying  ;)

I guess people know better to not buy it  ;D

Yep. Because it's stock. And it caught fire once.

that's what happens to stock bikes ... they catch fire.  [thumbsup]

...as they get passed by the non-stock bikes and are exposed to the flames shooting out of our exhaust [evil]

I knew one day I would finally understand why I kept my license to practice in Nevada active all these years.

You need a license to practice medicine in Nevada? What's this country coming to?

I'm going to go ahead and argue that motos are more green than a prius or any other car.  I have made the argument before...  people only consider the emissions of the vehicle when thinking about the "carbon footprint" or "green-ness"
 
How much raw material goes into making a motorcycle vs a car?  Cars have more metal, more plastic, more rubber, more everything...  all of the machines used to mine and produce those material pump tons of shit into the air and water.  How much energy goes into producing those materials?  Good old diesel fuel and coal burning factories... I guess it doesn't matter because it doesn't directly affect the air quality of California.  

I'm going to go eat a sprout sandwich on 15 grain bread in the dark.    

I've heard that the energy and materials that go into making a vehicle are a fraction of the energy that goes through a vehicle during its operational lifetime.

where does "material" fit into the second part of that equation?  There is a finite amount of raw material on earth.  More material is used to make a car.  Is it not wasteful to have a vehicle that is larger than one needs?  I would consider that "un-green". 

my bike - roughly 44mpg

Range Rover - 15mpg

I saw 5 RRs today all with one person in them.  They use 3 times as much fuel and about 10 times as much space as I do on my bike.

  I am not saying that motos spew roses, I just think that there are 100 other places to look before you start taking old bikes off the road because they can't pass emissions testing.   

+ eleventy billion for what jesus said above.  [bow_down]

vinny is spot on with his point of a vehicles carbon footprint being not just the lifetime consumption and emissions of the vehicle ... it also includes the materials used in manufacturing, energy used in manufacturing, transportation energy and emissions used to move the raw materials and finished product to market, and i am certain i am leaving other carbon footprint components out that every vehicle consumes, even before the consumer gets in or on and starts it up after purchase.  post consumer waste is another factor to consider in greeness ... wtf is going to happen to all the consumed prius batteries when they are depleted and cannot be recharged?

anyway, i agree with jesus/vinny.  [bow_down]

Manufacturing & materials certainly have a place, but I think it's small as a fraction of the total. I've heard numerous times (on radio news shows, forums, etc) that the total energy required to produce a vehicle is tiny compared to the energy that vehicle will consume in its operational lifetime. Here's one example, with a few references:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=433981 (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=433981)

So while we can certainly feel a bit smug about using less energy and fewer materials, the real bacon is in the operational efficiency. If you can use a small increase in the energy/material of manufacturing to improve the operational efficiency of a vehicle, you can get a net reduction in the amount of energy a vehicle uses over its lifetime. And if bikes do indeed expel more pollutants per mile of operation that do cars, that's another factor to consider. We may use less energy, but if we're putting benzene, NO, and other nasty bits into the air at a higher rate than cars, bikes may not be so green after all.

All of this begs the question: what is green? Is it simply using less energy during operation? During manufacture? Is it the type and quantity of pollutants the bike expels during operation? The more complex the answer, the more difficult it is to compare vehicles.

Oh, and your bike only gets 44mpg because of that extra shim you had in your valves after that wrenching day in my garage ;D

I've done this argument before, I think.

Cars = way less soot and more CO² per gallon burned (catalytic converters' convert soot into CO²)

Bikes = way (way!) more "soot" and a bit less CO² per gallon burned


Less CO² means less global warming. More soot means less global warming (see "global dimming")  [evil]

So, depending on what you care about (local vs. global) you can argue bikes are better.

I think it's all of the above factors together. Including the space taken up.
The question is always about sustainability. As in, can the situation be sustained indefinitely, like everything in nature. If we are eventually going to run out of finite resources because of a particular activity, then it ain't "green."

If it pollutes faster than the nature we're paving over can clean it up, it's not sustainable and will eventually choke it's self.

You can factor in your individual lifestyle to calculate what damage or good you are causing. If you buy only locally made everything, commute a very short distance infrequently, live in a super efficient home, then your vehicle's pollution rate is less important.
If you have a Prius but commute 3 hours a day, live in a energy sucking house, and buy everything made in China, your Prius isn't helping much. It's better than an SUV however.

In other words, it's not just the object, such as a moto or car, it's how it's used. It's total lifestyle that counts.

If you're gonna take the holistic view, then we vegetarians are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay greener than the rest of ya. In fact, not eating meat would allow me to drive an H1, tow a trailer with 4 Desmosedicis on it, and run straight pipes on it all, and still be greener than you ;D

DISCLAIMER: You guys know I don't trip on eating meat...just givin ya a bad time.

Yeah well, uh.

I'm having my roof painted white (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/10/local/me-roofs10), I win.  ;D

Hmmm my bike is white.. Can I get an exemption based in that? You people with dark colored bikes.. You are the real problem! :P

Yeah, well, um, my roof has always been white ;D

i though vegitarians were more of an orange color from eating all those carrots, not green.

Fixed. First of all, spell it right man. I know you Canadians spell things like colour and aluminium like your UK overlords, but that's taking things a bit too far.

(http://irononstation.com/Merchant2/graphics/thumbs/ironon/cartoons/cartoons24.jpg)

And we vegetarians eat far more green than orange...besides....Bugs never turned orange.

With all the motos and soot around, lets see how long that roof stays white...   [bang]   [laugh]


[laugh] That "shim" destroyed my piston rings and now the bikes spews black smoke... I'm just doing my part to give the city a little character.  and save the earth with "global dimming"

You're not gonna argue that your bike isn't dirty, right Vin?   [laugh]

Yeah, like f*ckin' DIESELS!! And I'm not referring to semi's here.  [puke] Now they MAY (really unsubstantiated as there no accurate testing equipment designed for this type of spewage, at least when I was in the biz) put out less CO2 but jeebus, what about the sulphur, NOx, Nitric Acid and HUGE amounts of particulate matter just to name a few.... God I wanna know who got paid off on that one!

<rant off>

Here is the reply I got from Mark Leno (or his office or ??) when I wrote him about this bill, asking him to have it stuck down or at minimum, add a "grandfather" clause:

Thank you for writing to express your opposition of SB 435, authored by Senator Fran Pavely. I appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinion on this important issue.

SB 435 would require the department to include model-year 2000 and newer motorcycles in the smog check program beginning January 1, 2012. I will keep your comments in mind when this bill comes before me in the Senate.

Thank you again for contacting me. If you have any further questions or thoughts regarding this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact my office at (415) 479-6612 (San Rafael), (415) 557-1300 (San Francisco) or visit my website at www.senate.ca.gov/leno (http://).

Sincerely,

Mark Leno

Senator, 3rd Senate District

Pretty standard and non-committal. Pretty much what I was expecting if I even got a reply. I hate to say it but I think we are doomed...

Long as they leave the old cars alone  :)

That's next!

OOoh. Now I get it. New car sales. New bike sales.

They don't care squat about emails.  One telephone call is worth about 50 emails.  And a snail mail letter is worth even more.  Personally showing up in their office is worth even more.  And taking a dump on their desk really gets their attention. 

Diesels are coming too. My husband runs a small trucking company and I think 2012 is the year that all trucks have to be fitted with smog devices. It's going to cost his company 15k per truck. It's going to kill a lot of small trucking businesses. A lot of trucks and buses are really gross, so I have mixed feelings about it.

As far as motorcycles go I think it's stupid. Maybe they figure if the exhaust and smog is more stock the bikes will not be so loud. Noise pollution as well as air pollution. Stupid. Just a thought.

excellent points spidey.  let's start a phone call/vmail and letter campaign.  bravo good sir, bravo!

i gotta tell you, the taking a dump on the senator's desk sounds very appealing.  do you defend folks who do such things?  i am pretty certain i am going to need legal council after taking a dump on a senator's desk, and want to line up my legal ducs now.