Ok, so I was out for a ride today and a spark plug blew out! :o I was motoring down I75 from Gainesville when suddenly I felt something hit my leg, alot of noise, hot air on my thigh and a loss of power. I looked down and saw my spark plug wire flopping around with the spark plug in it. Pulled over and it looked like it backed out, the belt cover was slightly melted where the plug wire passes through. Got the plug put back in and the bike fired up, so I went home very nervous it would happen again. My question is, has anyone ever had this happen to them? I'm about to go out and take the belt covers off to inspect everything now that the bike has cooled down some, any suggestions what I should be wary of?
Never happened to me with any bike!! you only noticed it after it fall out?, thought you may have noticed a a lack of performance and a strange "chuff-chuff" sort of noise?
Well with that happening to you, good call to go over the bike and check all nut's/bolts and chips etc are all firm, was it serviced by recently?
a good reminder to always do a complete walk around of the bike before riding.
Yes, just had the 6,000 mile service done a few months back. When I got the covers off and the plug back out it looks like the plug had been cross threaded. [bang] Now the only time that plug had been out prior to this was when the service was done, so I know it wasn't me. Prior to this the bike ran great, didn't notice any "chugging" which would indicate a loss of compression, just the sweet music of a Ducati DS1000 [thumbsup] At any rate I'm going to call the shop where I had the service done on Monday to see what can be done.
I hope you get this straightened-out, but don't be too hopefull. You are essentially asking the shop to admit a mistake from several months back that just became apparent now. [roll]
I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
Quote from: herm on March 14, 2009, 01:38:18 PM
a good reminder to always do a complete walk around of the bike before riding.
Who on earth checks sparkplug tightness?
There is a limit.
Should not be a problem. The shop would have to prove that he has removed the plugs since they did. The burden of proof will fall on them since he had the service done there and the plugs are the same as what they put in.
Don't let them helicoil it. It was their mistake and helicoils are a last resort to avoid buying a new head in my opinion. Since they made the error I would want a new cylinder head for free. This was no fault of yours so anything less than a bike in the same or better condition than what you dropped off to them is unacceptable.
I hope it's not a hassle, the shop owner has always been good to me ever since I bought the bike.I'll keep updating when I know more.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 14, 2009, 03:04:24 PM
Who on earth checks sparkplug tightness?
There is a limit.
yeah, the limit is whatever you make of it.
a quick tug on the plug caps may well have prevented this during a walk around.
YRMV [thumbsup]
Quote from: herm on March 14, 2009, 03:26:01 PM
yeah, the limit is whatever you make of it.
a quick tug on the plug caps may well have prevented this during a walk around.
YRMV [thumbsup]
I doubt it though. It was likely tight before the ride. He made it some distance after all before it came out and the pressure from the cylinder pushing out on the plug would have ridiculously higher than tugging on the wire. If it was loose enough to feel with a wire tug before the ride the chance of it going even a mile would have been slim to none. Once the threads are compromised, especially on aluminum, it is just a matter of time before they let go. I have seen many Ford V8 engines blow factory plugs out, threads and all, at varying miles. There is no way to tell when it will happen.
I'd be willing to bet that they will not try to blame you. But...I'd also be willg to bet that they will deny your request for a new head.
I also would not want a Heli-Coil but a TimeSert is a very nice repair for a stripped out spark plug hole. If they suggest Heli-Coil, I'd request a TimeSert.
I hope you get a new head out of the deal...but I'd be suprised.
Keep us informed.
Quote from: needtorque on March 14, 2009, 03:06:36 PM
The shop would have to prove that he has removed the plugs since they did. The burden of proof will fall on them since he had the service done there and the plugs are the same as what they put in.
Don't let them helicoil it. It was their mistake and helicoils are a last resort to avoid buying a new head in my opinion. Since they made the error I would want a new cylinder head for free. This was no fault of yours so anything less than a bike in the same or better condition than what you dropped off to them is unacceptable.
1+ above; couldnt have written it better; post back on the outcome; one other thing; I'd carefully check the other plugs before they touch it; plugs should all move easily in and out in the head threads; and snug to the proper torque (1/4 turn max). The must have cross threaded or over torqued stripping the threads out of the head ... there aluminum heads so the threads are delicate. Expensive & a Boan head move but mistakes do happen
Also could you add "stripped sparkplug thread" to your title? This is the first time I'v heard of this ... but evidentlly it happens on occasion ...
In my professional opinion it sounds like the plug wasn't torqued correctly. That means with a torque wrench. This is very important because of the different thermal expansion rates between an aluminum head and a steel spark plug. Also do NOT use anti seize on an aluminum head for the same reason. The dealership screwed up. I am suprised that you didn't notice any odd sounds but then again wind noise may have covered it up. Not likely that they will replace the head unless the bike is still under factory warranty. A properly installed time sert will be stronger than factory and this is a viable option but still requires head removal. Good luck.
Jon
QuoteAlso could you add "stripped sparkplug thread" to your title?
Done
I talked to a friend of mine who is big into Ducs and he also suggested the Time-serts, I'll see what the shop says. Heck if they take off the head and put a time-sert in at no charge, I'll be ok with that. I looked into time-serts and they seem pretty heavy duty, but this is something best left to the shop, not cause I'm nervous about doing it (I am), but the way I see it, it's on them.
Oh, and the plug wire that this happened on is the one that goes through the belt cover on the top cylinder, seeing as how the rubber boot seats into the plastic of the belt cover I doubt I would have noticed it being loose if I had wiggled it.
Hope the shop cooperates and puts on a new head. Screw-ups happen even at the best shops and I hope this is an isolated incident - but...If they are going to install a Time-sert I'd be concerned about letting a guy or a shop that can't properly thread or torque a sparkplug do this kind of repair. It seems to me that you should be able to request that a qualified machine shop do the actual thread repair work.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Well, I would not necessarily doubt the capability of the shop. I know that I have made mistakes on vehicles before (mechanic) and 99 times out of a hundred I catch and fix said mistake before it leaves the shop. On occasion one gets by but I have always fixed my mistakes and that is what matters. The shop may have had a trainee working on the bike and maybe that one slipped by the lead tech. If they have dealt fairly with you and you trust them to do the work correctly and treat you fairly then go for it.
Quote from: Ducaholic on March 14, 2009, 05:29:24 PM
In my professional opinion it sounds like the plug wasn't torqued correctly. That means with a torque wrench. This is very important because of the different thermal expansion rates between an aluminum head and a steel spark plug. Also do NOT use anti seize on an aluminum head for the same reason. The dealership screwed up. I am suprised that you didn't notice any odd sounds but then again wind noise may have covered it up. Not likely that they will replace the head unless the bike is still under factory warranty. A properly installed time sert will be stronger than factory and this is a viable option but still requires head removal. Good luck.
Jon
Curious, why would you recommend NOT using any antiseize? How is antiseize going to adversely effect any kind of different expansion rates?
I'm a master Porsche tech by trade. For some reason anti seize helps plugs back out of aluminum heads and I have seen this first hand. Use it all you want on an old iron head Chevy if you want. All of my instructors have advised against anti seize too and if I recall correctly it is listed in the service manual. If you torque a plug to the correct spec it should not back out. Granted I'm not a Ducati tech but I do speak from experience.
FWIW, I use anti-seize on everything that doesn't call for thread lock, and I've never had a plug back out.
I'm not a titled tech of anything, but have spun wrenches for the first 10 years of my working life. Private endurance race team, then a dealership, then out on my own. Then I got smart and took a government job! [cheeky]
I remember ze germans....whilst working on the 911 GTS car, you must remember to put ze antiseize on everyzing you touch !
Got yelled at a few times and then got with the program. Antiseize goes on sparkplugs of 24 hour race cars....plugs don't back out.
Torqued threads hold the plug in (or any fastener in). I agree, if you torque a fastener to the correct value, it won't back out. Doesn't matter if there is antiseize on it or not.
Hell, I put antiseize on my wheel studs or lugs, never had a wheel fall off [thumbsup]
+3
Also FWIW many manufacturers, although not necessarily moto, require time serts in all alloy threaded applications.
There is nothing wrong with them.
I think the anti-seize question is one of those personal opinion issues. Here's my opinion. Not using anti-seize seems to be based on two points. 1. It reduces friction between the plug threads and the heads and we are idiots and will accordingly strip the threads. 2. Anti-seize contains metal and is conductive and we are idiots and will get anti-seize on the working end of the plug and it will misfire.
The reasons for using anti-seize is that it will do what it's name intended and prevent steel plug threads from galling or seizing due to corrosion in the aluminum head, however, many if not all plugs these days are plated and don't have much of an issue with seizing in an aluminum head. I still use a small amount of anti-seize on plug threads. I'm not an A&P but I understand that anti-seize is required on reciprocating aircraft engine plugs (aluminum heads).
I've personally never heard of or had a plug back out due to anti-seize, but as I demonstrate every time I post I don't know everything.
QuoteThere is nothing wrong with them.
DP,
Don't think there is anything wrong with them at all and as Ducaholic pointed out, they are better than the factory threads. You may be referring to my comment about my concerns about the shop installing them. That was based on my mental image of the tech eyeballing the hole with his $30 Home Depot cordless drill and that comment was based on the requirement for proper installation and not about Time-serts themselves.
Quote from: Langanobob on March 15, 2009, 08:08:03 AM
DP,
Don't think there is anything wrong with them at all and as Ducaholic pointed out, they are better than the factory threads. You may be referring to my comment about my concerns about the shop installing them. That was based on my mental image of the tech eyeballing the hole with his $30 Home Depot cordless drill and that comment was based on the requirement for proper installation and not about Time-serts themselves.
I actually wasn't referring to your comment.
I was just trying to reassure the OP about the goodness of a quality repair. [thumbsup]
My post reflected my experiences. As I stated I am no ducati tech so take it as you want it. I guess the difference may be in newer plug technology. I haven't had any problems not using anti seize.
Jon
Quote from: needtorque on March 14, 2009, 03:06:36 PM
Don't let them helicoil it. It was their mistake and helicoils are a last resort to avoid buying a new head in my opinion. Since they made the error I would want a new cylinder head for free. This was no fault of yours so anything less than a bike in the same or better condition than what you dropped off to them is unacceptable.
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not."
While most of us would agree it's the shop's fault, including the shop, IME you're gonna have a hard time getting a shop to replace a head on their dime rather than do a time sert. And FWIW, a time sert is a definite upgrade over an aluminum thread. My biggest concern would be to make absolutely certain they removed the head to do the insert. I seen pros do it without, by removing the intake, insuring the intake valve is open and blasting compressed air through the cyclinder as the old threads are drilled and tapped to accept the time sert, but I wouldn't trust someone who stripped a spark plug thread to get that right.
Well no matter what the timesert is still threaded into alumium. My only real concerns with this would be 1) will they remove the head to do this, and 2) how much material is around that spark plug hole to ensure no additional damage occurs when drilling the hole larger to install the time sert. They are a bit thick.
Quote from: needtorque on March 15, 2009, 10:28:58 AM
Well no matter what the timesert is still threaded into alumium.
Yes, the time sert is threaded into aluminum,
once, and locked with red loctite. From then on, the removal and installation of spark plugs is into steel threads which, IMO, makes it a huge improvement
And I may have come off the wrong way. No offense intended or implied [thumbsup]. My experiance/what I've been taught only.
As with almost everything, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Except for drinking beer. Only one way to really do that. [drink] [cheeky]
Quote from: TAftonomos on March 15, 2009, 11:45:11 AM
And I may have come off the wrong way. No offense intended or implied [thumbsup]. My experiance/what I've been taught only.
As with almost everything, there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Except for drinking beer. Only one way to really do that. [drink] [cheeky]
If your referring to me, then no offense taken at all. I think this is a very worthwhile discussion. Whenever I go to Porsche training which is required at least twice a year, some of the best learning comes from talking with the other techs and their fixes and what nots.
I believe we tend to over think things.
Back in the day when I twisted wrenches on 2 smokers...
stripped plug threads were so commonplace we'd grease a tap and do an insert from the outside...
seemed to work...
back then.
Always worked bestr from the inside.
It probably depends on how you do it...
and yes...
Locktite had been invented.... ;)
Ducpainter,
I more or less agree with you and if it were my own bike and I'd stripped the plug myself I would just do it in place with a greased bit and tap - I've done this before. However, the case we have here is different and the dealer made a mistake and should do it by the book correctly.
Also, following this same line of reasoning I used to do a perfectly good tank paint job with a rattle can, then bake it in the household oven for a few hours while SWMBO wasn't home...don't see any need at all for any fancy prep or two part primers or multi-stage paints. ;D
Quote from: Langanobob on March 15, 2009, 06:22:00 PM
Ducpainter,
I more or less agree with you and if it were my own bike and I'd stripped the plug myself I would just do it in place with a greased bit and tap - I've done this before. However, the case we have here is different and the dealer made a mistake and should do it by the book correctly.
Also, following this same line of reasoning I used to do a perfectly good tank paint job with a rattle can, then bake it in the household oven for a few hours while SWMBO wasn't home...don't see any need at all for any fancy prep or two part primers or multi-stage paints. ;D
No argument about it being the dealers responsibility and the fact that he should expect a quality repair. I don't think I even insinuated otherwise. Commenting on what works is just that...a comment
Speaking about what works and doesn't work...
The paint thing works great...if you don't pour gas in your tank. ;)
QuoteThe paint thing works great...if you don't pour gas in your tank. Wink
I will post a picture of my Triumph Bonneville tank that's had rattle can paint on it for decades. 8) And it's had lots of gas run through it. I may have to post a very low resolution photo since it does show it's age...
Hope the OP is back on Monday with some good news from his dealer.
Quote from: Langanobob on March 15, 2009, 07:23:17 PM
I will post a picture of my Triumph Bonneville tank that's had rattle can paint on it for decades. 8) And it's had lots of gas run through it. I may have to post a very low resolution photo since it does show it's age...
Hope the OP is back on Monday with some good news from his dealer.
I'm sure you realize the stuff you used on your Bonny was lacquer and all the stuff today is unactivated synthetic enamel.
I'll discuss paint forever. ;D
I can never tell when to engage DP in a serious conversation or not. Last time I tried he said something like "if I cared" [laugh]
Quote from: TAftonomos on March 15, 2009, 09:22:48 PM
I can never tell when to engage DP in a serious conversation or not. Last time I tried he said something like "if I cared" [laugh]
I didn't that day. ;D
QuoteI can never tell when to engage DP in a serious conversation or not.
I have the same issue with
everyone here - couldn't possibly be me though [roll] I know enough about most things to tell when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about and DP does know a lot about paint. (It took discipline, but there, I said something positive and I'm leaving it at that) :)
OK, back on subject. I called the dealer and he said to bring it in and maybe he could chase the threads or put a Heli-coil in it, not the response I was wanting. Any suggestions from the members?
Chasing the threads - NO. If they are screwed up enough for the plug to come out while you were riding, chasing them is not an effective repair.
The problem with a Heli-coil repair is that they "can" unthread in the future. You remove the plug and instead of unthreading from the coil, the coil comes out wrapped around the plug. Not to say this will happen as Heli-coils have been around for a long long time and have been used for many successful repairs. The Time-serts that have been discussed already are the best solution. If the shop can do a Heli-coil they can do a Time-sert as the procedure is very similar. The kits are expensive and if they don't have a kit on hand already (a good shop should) they may be balking at the Time-serts due to the expense.
It also sounds like they will not want to remove the head to do the repair? It "can" be done in place but unless the guy doing it is very good and experienced there is some chance that debris will get into your cylinder. Again chances of that happening and actually doing harm aren't great, but still...to do it correctly the head should come off. It all hinges on how capable the shop is. I would ask them how many plug thread repairs they have done.
Don't know how mechanically inclined you are or if you have tools and a place to work, but if it were my bike I would just avoid the hassle, time and stress of dealing with the dealer and just do it myself.
Good luck with this.
Quote from: Old-Duckman on March 14, 2009, 04:44:44 PM
I'd be willing to bet that they will not try to blame you. But...I'd also be willg to bet that they will deny your request for a new head.
I also would not want a Heli-Coil but a TimeSert is a very nice repair for a stripped out spark plug hole. If they suggest Heli-Coil, I'd request a TimeSert.
I hope you get a new head out of the deal...but I'd be suprised.
Keep us informed.
Timesert is definitely the way to go (my better half works for Wurth who supply them so not too biased..!) much better than helicoils and much better long term
I'm gonna trailer the bike over there and have him look at it, I only got about 5 min to speak with him on the phone so I don't think he knows the extent of what is going on. He did say he would remove the head to put the Heli-coil in. I'm gonna ask about the time-sert when I'm there, also will ask how the heli-coil or time-sert will hold up before I commit to anything. I am very mechanically inclined and feel that I could do a time-sert after looking into it, but I don't have a kit to do it. I could just take it over to my friends house who is way more into Ducs than I, he has a bike lift and quite alot of Duc specific tools so I understand, so theoretically I could pull the head and take it to a machine shop for a time-sert, we'll see.
Craig, my main concern, whether it's a Heli-coil or Time-sert, is getting the larger hole drilled right. To some extent the original hole will act as a pilot and guide the drill as it enlarges the hole for the new threads. But...aluminum is soft and if whoever is drilling is not good, it's too easy to get the bit and hole off on a different angle.
Ideally I think the head should be clamped to a drill press or mill table so that the bit can be properly lined up and the hole drilled in a controlled manner. But that may be overkill if the guy knows what he's doing.
QuoteBut...aluminum is soft and if whoever is drilling is not good, it's too easy to get the bit and hole off on a different angle.
I agree, but if the dealer or whoever does the insert messes it up, it's on them, or at least thats how I see it. The dealer (tech) in question has a good rep in the local community here in North Central Florida, I know quite a few people who speak highly of the shop and the work they do. I had an issue once before with the bike after I bought it and he made it right, no charge. So, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, if it works out, great. If not, "Hey man, better make this right", know what I mean? Anyway, I appreciate the concern. When I know more I'll post up.
Well, GL but please dont let them BS you into a heli-coil.
Quote from: needtorque on March 16, 2009, 04:16:53 PM
Well, GL but please dont let them BS you into a heli-coil.
Yea, I'm not big on that idea either. If he's gonna put an insert in, then it's gonna be a Time-sert. Or I'll pull the heads myself and take it to a machine shop, or buy the kit if it comes to that. But like I said I just talked to him on the phone for a coiple mins, hopefully he'll see what we're dealin with when I get there.
Heli-Coils were great, then came the better idea, TimeSerts. Push for the TimeSerts.
I dropped it off today, he said he's gonna have to pull the head and most likely put a time-sert in [thumbsup]. Bad news is they may have it awhile cause they're backed up, so no riding in the nice weather we're havin here in Florida :'(, oh well at least my baby will get better.
Craig,
Just wondering if you have an update on how this drama turned out? Or maybe they still have your bike - hope not.
I'm a machinist for a Top Fuel drag race team/manufacturing and repair facility. I probably fix 10 blown out spark plugs a month. We grind them out, weld up the holes, and re-machine the valve cover side back to original dimensions, and then drill them and tap them back to where they were. Then re-profile the chambers on a 5-axis mill. As for chasing the threads, well, if that plug just got loose and backed out, that would be fine. If it was blown out, there probably isn't much in the way of threads left. And crossthreaded, that is probably the case of someone in training forcing it in, when it should go in with fingers. That requires a repair. As for heli-coils, vs. time serts or keen-serts, I've done it all different ways. I think the time-serts would be the way to go. It's a piece of cake with the cylinder head off. And langano, they can screw it up, I've seen it first hand.
Robert
Here is some info on the time-sert.
http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html (http://www.timesert.com/html/sparkplug.html)
QuoteI'm a machinist for a Top Fuel drag race team/manufacturing and repair facility.
Excellent. Sounds like a dream job. I've got an old Bridgeport, an old Monarch lathe and an old surface grinder but I'm about as low on the learning curve as you can get. I only do my own projects since I don't have the skill or confidence yet to work on anyone else's stuff.
QuoteAnd langano, they can screw it up, I've seen it first hand.
Don't recall exactly what I said, but if it sounded like I was saying that Heli-coils are perfect I didn't intend that. I think I was just trying to say that they
usually work OK if installed correctly. I've had them back out myself.
Nothing new yet Langano, they still have the bike. They're backed up with a couple other projects, but I am gettin a Time-sert put in, after he pulls the head off, so at least I have that to be happy for. It just really blows cause the weather has been so nice, days are in the low 80's, and if you're from Florida you know this doesn't last but a month or two before you can literally melt lead on the asphalt.
Hey Corndog, were you at Gatornationals?
What really blows is that I just got a box of goodies from Monsterparts and I'm so itchin to get em installed >:(
I wasn't there, but our driver won Top Fuel. I usually only go to Pomona. I'm a shop guy, not a crew guy.
That's cool man, I wanted to go but had to work. Some girls from class went and they said it was a blast.