I always looked at the long and strict break-in as kind of a joke from the manufacturer to keep speeds down for new riders. Now don't flame me on this but think about it. 100 miles at an avg. of 4k rpm (this does not include idle time to warm-up) the engine has turned over 400,000 times. By the time you hit 200 miles at that RPM and you throw in idle time at ~1,000 RPM the engine has about 1,000,000 revolutions on it. If it is not broken in by then how could it ever be?
Not recommending that you skip the break-in as that would start a whole shit-brick of fights I think but still you can see where I am going with this.
Right now the manufacturers (such as Ducati) that supply their bikes with full synthetic oil are between a rock and a hard place. The bikes actually need to be ridden harder than the manuals (or common sense) suggest in order to properly seat the rings in their bores. The problem is that the manufacturers would open themselves up to a giant load of liability if they told new owners to go out and thrash their new bikes. Most accidents happen during the first couple of thousand miles when owners are still getting used to their new rides. To suggest that they take an unfamiliar bike out and twist the throttle hard would be a catastrophe for any manufacturer. The best solution would be an initial setup with semi-synthetic for the first 600 miles and then a switch to full syn after that. And as posted above, real break-in is achieved fairly quickly and isn't a multi-thousand mile affair. During break in it's best to vary the rpm quite a bit, with occasional bursts up to the rev stratosphere. Plenty of heat cycles and good rpm variance does the best to seat the rings and assure a nice break in. Steady cruising at one set rpm is not conducive to proper break in. Once broken in, your cruising rpm will obviously vary with the speed being maintained, but at freeway speeds (around 70mph) you'll likely be somewhere between 4-5k rpm on your 696.
Definitely time to start turning it loose, at least for short periods. The biggest thing to avoid is prolonged periods at any constant rpm. Regarding sprockets and gearing, up only one in the rear will make no noticeable difference. Go down one in front, or up at least 3 or 4 in the rear. I went down one in front, and the bike actually seems faster. When leaving a light the second-gear upshift comes pretty quick or else it'll find the rev limiter pretty hard, and it seems to bust 100 before I notice. It lives between 6k-7k rpm on the highway.
The catch is (and I don't know if this applies to you) some manufacturers now keep a history on their ECUs. You bring in a bike that's broken before the run-in is done, and the history shows a max rpm 2000 above the run-in limit, and you've just voided your warranty.
Metalurgy has changed the requirements of run-in, and I for one don't believe much bedding goes on at all, nor does it need to. Case in point, there are now cylinder liners of plasmacoat (no sleeve, no nada) a couple microns thick. How would you bed into that?
Maybe the manufacturer wants to to take it easy because the stuff that tends to break during run-in is more likely due to a build failure. At a reasonable rpm you might catch a rattle, or even not exacerbate enough to break something loose. Then on your 600 mile service, they catch an issue before it becomes catastrophic.
Metals used today don't change as much as metals used when all this mattered. And the only difference using synth offers is a lack of burnt on inside your motor. Doesn't change anything else about run-in. An a/c VW mag did a study years ago comparing real synth to dino and found that their "leakage issues" for converts came from the synth not soaking into seals as much. you changed oils and the dino oil slowly seeped from the already ballooned seals causing the then rubbed seals to shrink back to their original size.... Minus the material rubbed off whilst they were swollen with dino oil... And you know what? The new gaps caused leaks. Go figure...
Corvette's ZR-1 left the factory with Amsoil in them and the only catastrophic failures occurred because the person tasked with loading the fresh cars on trailer was starting them and immediately revving them up. Seems in that case, the immediate disobedience to the run-in table was causing the OHC chains to fail prematurely.
In fact Mini fill's their new cars (even the turbo ones) with Mobil 1 0w-20!!! For run-in and thereafter!!
QuoteCorvette's ZR-1 left the factory with Amsoil in them...
Can you back this claim up with any proof?
Damn, didn't intend to get too religious with my question. But, hey, I can see all sides to this story.
As Smokescreen said, I am sticking to the recommended run/break-in to avoid any hassle. I figure after 600 miles I can ride however the **** I want. But until then I'm behaving.
QuoteDefinitely time to start turning it loose, at least for short periods.
This I'll do after the first oil change @ 600. My mech told me point blank that he put in extra heavy oil, and that he'll swap it out the next time he sees me. It's got me a little paranoid and conservative.
QuoteThe problem is that the manufacturers would open themselves up to a giant load of liability if they told new owners to go out and thrash their new bikes.
This I believe, too. I guess the fear of voiding my warranty wins at the end of the day.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. This is my first street bike and I've got nothing to compare the experience to. Hence my stupid question.
here is another viewpoint on the subject...this is more or less how i did the break in on my monsters
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
you can never have to much information, right?
what you do with it is another matter all together.
During the 600 mile service they certainly do not disassemble anything on the engine enough to find a significant build error that is not already exhibiting symptoms. The main purpose for break-in today is to seat the rings. I believe that in the factory, after final assembly the first time the enigne is started it is run at wot for a period to ensure proper assembly. There are videos on You Tube from the factory in Bologna that show the process. The most important thing is to run at varied rpms for the first few hundred miles, with increasingly short transients to seat the rings and develop a good compression seal.
Quote from: Langanobob on March 15, 2009, 04:12:51 PM
Can you back this claim up with any proof?
Look under the hood of any ZR-1 and it has a sticker that says factory filled with Amsoil. Also any history of the ZR-1 will offer the same claim, as it was one of the first cars to come off the line with full synthetic. The beginning of engineers accepting that full synthetic is better in every way. Of course this understanding takes a long time to be accepted by the public. Not unlike Copernicus idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. I'm sorry to say my personal library is a bit lacking just now, having just divorced and moved, so I won't be offering MLA citation, but i studied the history of the ZR1 specifically and that was a bit of trivia that kept. Again, feel free to check me against any thorough history on the ZR1. Not relevant to our discussion would be such trivia as the motor being designed in part by Lotus and Mercury Marine, if I remember correctly.
I am sorry I can't be more specific here. If I'm wrong, it's Mobil 1, but I think that the current Vettes are filled with Mobil 1 at the factory, and the ZR1 was Amsoil. the only "web" inferrence I could find to the oil used in Corvettes was an article about the 93 Corvette http://www.fatherlarryscorvetteshop.com/1990-1995_zr1.htm (http://www.fatherlarryscorvetteshop.com/1990-1995_zr1.htm) and it mentions Mobil 1
Quote from: herm on March 15, 2009, 06:41:28 PM
here is another viewpoint on the subject...this is more or less how i did the break in on my monsters
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
you can never have to much information, right?
what you do with it is another matter all together.
Agreed, you can never have too much information.
JetTest- I wouldn't disagree with your belief that the dealership doesn't break into a motor, and will only chase symptoms exhibited at the run-in service, but I don't agree with the run-in ,eaning to seat the rings. Nothing is made of the same materials as when that mattered. How do you seat the rings on a GTR with a plasma cote instead of a cylinder liner? Do you believe the rings are made of softer material than the alloy of the block? And yet the GTR has a very strict run-in. Do our linered cylinders go through seating? Not three thousand miles worth. A little rub-off may occur, throughout the mill/tranny hence the 600 mile oil change, but not so much that it is a real issue. Ring seat run-in could be done at any RPM as the compression doesn't really vary.
As another example, AMG runs every motor they (hand) build at the factory it's built at. Not just a start up check, they've a crank dyno that runs each motor through one simulated fast lap at the ring. If mellow running helps seat rings, we should be seeing blow by on every AMG motored car.
I suspect that the prescribed run in is very (overly?) conservative. And I suspect the 696 lacks the memory embedded to prove an owner has misbehaved. But I would ask if anyone willing to tell a rider to out and out disregard their run-in instructions would be willing to accept liability for any catastrophic failures resulting from such action.
There was a blogger awhile back who claimed the best run-in was actually to thoroughly thrash a motor, right out of the box. He wasn't willing to accept responsibility for operators willing to take his advise either. And the fact that AMG thrashed theirs is only a tribute to the exacting tolerances personal attention to engine building can offer. At its own elevated price.
Do race teams follow a proper run-in? No! Does that correlate? Sure it does! Directly to every owner whose hand built mills are going to be rebuilt or replaced every few thousand miles.
Quotehere is another viewpoint on the subject...this is more or less how i did the break in on my monsters
Bravo Herm, I knew it was just a matter of time before someone referenced mototune. [clap] I really enjoy his writings and although I've never broken in a Duc with his methods (only because I've never bought one new) I had great results with a Yamaha. I'm happy to see he has some support here.
Quote from: Smokescreen on March 15, 2009, 09:33:46 PM
<...snip
I suspect that the prescribed run in is very (overly?) conservative. And I suspect the 696 lacks the memory embedded to prove an owner has misbehaved. But I would ask if anyone willing to tell a rider to out and out disregard their run-in instructions would be willing to accept liability for any catastrophic failures resulting from such action.
...snip>
very good point. [clap]
my dealer was the one who pointed me in the direction of this type of break in. when i asked about break in, he told me how he broke in his own bikes. he never specifically
told me to do it this way, but it was clear that it was his preference. however, what i did with that information was up to me.
similarly, when someone asks for advice here on this board.........i hope they are not expecting a warranty of success from the folks who respond with their opinions/experiences,etc....
I agree that materials are not the same as "the old days", they are much improved, but during the manufacturing process they are heat-treated, annealed or otherwise processed to bring them to their ultimate properties upon completion and final assembly. After numerous operational thermal cycles during the first few hundred miles of break-in they should experience no further significant change in properties. Also during the first few hundred miles any build errors would surface. By the 600 mile service and oil change to do final flush of the engine to clear it of any remaining manufacturing and assembly debris it should be pretty safe, mechanically speaking, to relax and ride it the way you want. In regards to the comment here "Do race teams follow a proper run-in? No! Does that correlate? Sure it does! Directly to every owner whose hand built mills are going to be rebuilt or replaced every few thousand miles.", I think a bigger factor in the life-cycle of race engines is not the break-in process, but the fact that they are typically built to, or near, their mechanical limits for perfromance, and pretty much their entire life they are run about as hard as you can run them. Who lives anywhere that you can ride like that all the time?
I don't think the OP was asking about break in.
He already made the decision to do that by the book.
I just read the Mototune article on break-in, and it looks to me like what I suggested agrees pretty closely with what is written there. It seems that the consensus here is that the factory recommendations are a bit too conservative, for whatever reasons. I have been riding for nearly 40 years, on and off road. Numerous new bikes of different manufacture, broke them all in about the same way, and have never had any significant engine problems that I did not bring on myself from running too hard, for too long, in too harsh of conditions. Since the OP is still within the factory break-in period, I guess that is why the thread digressed the way it did.
certainly it is an amazement at least that this discussion can be had (on the internet no less) without anyone resorting to tantrums or name calling. Whether our members choose one opinion or another makes little matter to me. I'm most thrilled to be able to read and react in an environment of civility.
I say bravo to every respondent on this thread thus far. Despite our polarities, I'm amazed to see this hasn't turned into one of those threads, where opinions about things turn into an internet flaming match.
Again, well done to all
[beer]
Things would be pretty boring if everyone had the same ideas all the time, and even as old as I am, I always try to take something away from every discussion, but yes, some people tend to over-personalize things if they are not agreed with. There are some great resources on this site, lots of good information, and sometimes even a nube can suprise you with a bit of information. I tend to put my preferences as follows (in no particular order): Italian motorcycles, German cars, American jets, Polish women.
I believe the digression is my fault. My post kind of directed the thread away from the OP. Sorry about that.
Good discussion, in spite of any digression. [beer]
Quote from: ducpainter on March 16, 2009, 06:39:46 AM
I don't think the OP was asking about break in.
He already made the decision to do that by the book.
8)
there was a really good discussion about this that use to be in the tutorials section, but i cant seem to find it. it was the arguement of basically warming up your bike and proceeding to run the snot out of it, vs manufacture guidelines.
i know i've heard Jeff Nash and the other guys at AMS all say basically the same thing: "ride it like you stole it" RE: break-in period.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on March 17, 2009, 06:15:06 AM
i know i've heard Jeff Nash and the other guys at AMS all say basically the same thing: "ride it like you stole it" RE: break-in period.
dont forget about a proper warm up. not idle and go, i mena idel smooth ride, ~230ish for the air cooled guys then ride the snot out of it.
I think this is part of the confusion about break-in methods. The answer to how to break-in an engine, and whether to use a synthetic oil during break-in, is different for new engines and rebuilt engines. What the engine manufacturers do and recommend for a new engine break-in should not be construed as the best solution for a rebuilt engine. Here's why.
The manufacturer controls the complete quality assurance and quality control process: design, fabrication, build, inspection and testing. The overall result is not necessarily better than can be achieved by a custom engine builder, just more consistent.
So when a manufacturer first fires-up each new engine on a test stand, they know from experience (and monitoring each engine's exhaust oil combustion products) that the piston rings will seat properly before the engine leaves the factory.
Every Ducati is run-in for ten minutes or more on the dyno using a prescribed rpm and temperature sequence. Many manufacturers including Ducati, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Corvette, Viper and Aston Martin do their initial fill with a synthetic oil, and piston wall glazing is simply not a problem for them.
The piston rings seal is mostly complete after this initial test run. The follow-up part of the break-in (that you read in your Owners Manual) has little to do with piston ring sealing. It's meant to accommodate the time it takes for normal wear to occur to thousands of mating parts like bearings and gears, that will happen regardless of the type lubricant used. It's particularly important to change any lubricant early, and often, to remove the resultant wear debris.
However, when you rebuild an engine you can introduce a number of variables (that affect glazing) that are different from a new engine such as piston ring material, clearances (that affects ring pressure on the wall) and cylinder wall surface finish. Also, not all engine re-builders have complete, accurate control over their cylinder-wall finish and ring type like the manufacturers.
Cylinder wall glazing occurs when the engine is run at power levels too low to produce temperatures high enough to expand the piston rings sufficiently to prevent a film of oil being left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates a condition commonly called glazing. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption can occur. Excessive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and re-honing the walls.
The build quality of engines 25 years ago probably contributed to the controversy that somehow synthetic oils are too slippery for break-in and that than conventional oils should be used.
So what do the oil manufacturers say?
According to a Road & Track article a few years ago regarding the use of synthetic oil during break-in, Mobil's position was that engines break-in just fine on synthetics, and that any wear point in the engine significant enough to be an interference, and thus susceptible to rapid wear, would be a wear point no matter what lubricant is used. Redline on the other hand, recommended a mineral oil for break-in. They say that in their experience, occasionally a rebuilt engine will glaze its cylinder walls when initially run on Redline synthetic, so by using a mineral oil for 2,000 miles, verifying there is no oil consumption, and then switching to the synthetic, glazing is eliminated.
In any event, for a rebuild, you shouldn't use an Owners Manual-style break-in period. You need to reproduce the Ducati factory dyno runs to avoid cylinder glazing. One way is to monitor tailpipe hydrocarbons to see when they drop during dyno runs. The other way is to ride it like you stole it.
Shazaam !!! and there you have it. Ive read quite a bit on break in and i like your write up the most well done [thumbsup]
Shazaam, Well written. Could not agree more.