Ducati Monster Forum

Another friend of mine wrecked a bike yesterday...50mph high side.  He had an oh shit moment around a curve and grabbed and handful and the bike tossed him.  This got me thinking...4 of the last 5 people I know who bought a bike being new to the sport have wrecked / totaled their purchase in 2 weeks or less.  All of them wrecked due to inexperience.  Just thought this was a high failure rate...maybe making it through the learning curve is harder than I thought...glad to have my first few years behind me safely.  Just another reason to show your moto the up most respect....otherwise it will get the best of you.

What is "make it through"?

Without crashing?  Some
Without totalling the bike?  Many.
Without getting hurt at all?  Some/many.  Dunno eggzactly.
Without giving up motorcycling?  Many.
Without dying?  Vast majority.

Personally and with no data to back this up, I think the riskiest time in terms of hurting yourself is not within your first two months (you're likely to drop it or have a slow speed crash where you'll be ok), but when you start getting comfy, say 6-18 months or two years.  That's when you're gonna make the beast with two backs up at speed and potentially really do some damage.   

Sorry to hear about your friend.  I hope he is ok.

Had those four folks that totaled/wrecked their bikes taken the MSF or similar basic skills course?  It took me 6,000 miles to total my 1st bike.  Other than that, it was a couple very slow speed drops.  What type of bike were those four riders riding?

JM

I agree with what spidey said i have been riding street since i was 17, 24 now and i didn't have my first crash till last year were i lowsided my 1098 my 2nd week of ownership.  And you know why i dropped it?  I was TOO comfortable and i didn't think the turn through before i knew it i leaned it all the way over on cold tires and there i went.

Really hope your friend is alright.  People just need to respect the machine and take it easy.  Everyone i have ridden with have made it through the beginning learning curve fine.  This includes people with and without formal training, hell i never took the MSF course myself!  YMMV

Only 1 of the 4 took the MSF BRC, but refused to start on a small bike.  He insisted on an R6.  As for the other 3, 696, GSXR 600 and GSXR 750...none of them beginner bikes...but apparently 250s aren't very cool. haha.

A lot of people refuse to start on small bikes that tends to be a problem.  The 696 isn't a bad starter bike, mine was an 82 yamaha virago, but the 250 ninja is the best IMO.  Of course if you respect the bike it will respect you no matter how much power it has.  There are a lot of factors why one would start with a bigger bike even though they aren't ready for it.  I have a friend who is 6 foot 7 and well the only bike he fits on comfortably is an R1 [roll]  Thank god the kid can't afford a bike right now  [laugh]

lots of folks ride for years without knowing what countersteering is.

And how often do you hear someone say they had to lay the bike down?  (too often)

So some never make it through and are still riding   ;D

There's the problem...lack of training, coupled with high powered sports bikes. The 696 is the only one that I would consider reasonable for a beginner bike (provided you have the $$$ to fix it). The others are great bikes, but have a lot of power. I can't imagine riding my 848 as my 1st bike...which is essentially what the others are doing.  :o

I also agree with Spidey. Complacency is a huge risk as a person gets more comfortable.

My first bike was a '92 honda shadow vlx (not the coolest bike, but it served its purpose), and I already had some riding experience on dad's harley and a few dirt bikes here and there.  I'm also a civilian engineer for the navy, so I was forced to take the BRC, ERC, and advanced sportbike class.  I felt a lot of it was elementary at the time, but looking back on it I did learn quite a few valuable techniques...and they were all free so time well spent.

That's exactly why your friend ended up in a ditch and you didn't  [cheeky]

+1 - I always chuckle when I hear someone laid it down and avoided a crash.  That implies an out of control motorcycle sliding steel on concrete (coefficient of friction of .1 - .2) managed to stop or go clear of another obstacle, but an in control motorcycle with disc brakes and 2 patches of rubber to concrete (coef .8 - .9) could not have stopped or avoided it?

I am convinced that motorcycles are just not for everyone, and a lot of people that are on them, just don't have the basic hand eye brain coordination to be safe.

mitt

My friend dropped his gixxer 600 within 3 months.. he took the MSF course but didnt pass the driving part  [roll]

I strongly advised against getting a 600 super sport for his first bike but it was his money and he wanted to look cool.  

Now as for what you said, I agree 100%.  Most newb accidents are low speed drops that dont do a ton of damage nor injure the rider too much.  

I havent dropped my bike yet and i know the more comfortable i get, the worse my first drop is most likely going to be.  I can already tell im riding more agressively since im more confident in my riding ability which means when i do go down for whatever reason... its most like going to be a nasty one.  

There is no substitute for education.

A big problem is that a lot of "accident avoidance" skills on a motorcycle are counter-intuitive.  While applying brakes, mid-corner, when you've overcooked it MAY on occasion work in a car, it almost never does on a bike, as your friend discovered.  The only way to overcome that is a little bit of knowledge and a hell of a lot of practice.
While everyone may not be able to afford the luxury of Freddie Spencer or Keith Code schools like I was, anyone can afford a MSF basic and advanced rider course, a copy of Nick Ienatche's "Sport Riding Techniques"
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NB6KYVY9L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
or David Hough's "Proficient Motorcling" and a few tanks of gas in a parking lot.

it comes up whenever anyone asks about good beginner bikes...

I don't think it's just the the power that gets people in trouble, it's the immediacy of the controls.   a ninja 250 doing 90 is still different than a ninja 600 doing 90.

The more slop or 'mush' that is taken out of the controls makes a bike more pleasurable for an experienced rider.    But the hamfisted grab at the brakes means a crash.  The hamfisted throttle control means a crash.  The difficult to modulate clutch means a stall and maybe a slow crash....or a jerky takeoff and an uncontrolled ride over a curb.

Beginner bikes are more forgiving.   shifts can be a little lazier...braking can be less smooth...control transitions can be a little less coordinated.

After a while one likes a bike that goes to 9 the instant you turn the throttle to 9.  In the beginning it's nice to be able to have the bike breeze through 2 to 8 to get to nine when you instantly put the throttle there.

After a while you like brakes that will stoppie the bike with a finger.   In the beginning it's nice to be able to use a little too much hand but not have the bike instantly lock the front.

After a while you like the smallest movement at the bars to make the bike steer quickly off in the direction you want.  In the beginning you like to have a stable platform that takes a little more control input to dive towards incoming traffic.

After a while you like...etc.etc.etc.

modern 600s are pretty sharp.  In the beginning I think soft is good.

That's a great explanation, Statler.  I often struggle with a good and succinct response to the "if you respect the throttle, you'll be ok" advice that is often given to new riders looking at machinery way beyond their experience level. 

Good point Spidey, on my 900SS, the throttle can get you in trouble, but the clutch can get you into trouble quicker.  A new rider + a super quick clutch + a torque 900cc mill = something bad

JM

Some really good thoughts and advice here. This is my 45th year of riding. Old and smart helps. Also spent the first couple of decades riding dirtbikes and racing MX in it's early days. That was a lifesaver as far as learning bike handling skills. I wish everyone could learn to ride in the dirt first with no cars and crazy drivers. That is just not the case these days. Lots of newbies hit the street with their first bike ever and what a nightmare that is. Trying to learn all the controls, getting a feel for your balance, dicing it out with four wheelers, dodging animals and gravel/dirt covered roads... on, and lets through in some rain and wet pavement too. :P

I wouldn't trade my learning experience for yours ever. Good luck to you, be careful out there and ride smart. I am sorry for your friends, I hope they are all OK. I hope you will be posting 44 years from now celebrating your 45th!! [thumbsup] [moto]

+1 statler i just found a much better explanation for people when they are looking at a bigger bike,  [clap]

I've seen this discussion on far too many forums to sit back and watch any longer.

From this day forward.. ALL states will use a tiered licensing system. A new rider, no matter age, weight, etc, WILL NOT be legally licensed to ride anything larger than a 125cc bike for their first year. Up to 500cc for year two. 600cc for the third year and not until the 5th year are they allowed to ride a liter bike. Special endorsements must be obtained for supersport bikes and may be done so through track schools to prove rider proficiency.

I've made this same point to folks just learning....

i can recall at least 3 different mistakes I made on my old ex500 within my first month of riding  that would have out me on my ass if I'd been on a newer, more powerful bike (like a 600)

Instead, I managed to stay upright each time and learned valuable lessons, thanks to the forgiving nature of a "softer" bike.

None of these incidences occurred because I was "disrespecting" the bike,

they happened because I was a beginner (still am) and I made mental mistakes or misjudged things as new riders tend to do

Sorry OP, but your friends made a series of really bad decisions and I really find it hard to feel sorry for them

I think they should all take comfort in knowing that they lived to tell their stories, since others in the past have not been so lucky.

My first ride was at age 6 on dirt. People should learn to ride on dirt. It doesn't hurt or cost as much when you crash (usually). After a year or so of every other weekend on dirt they will be more apt to be able to handle a motorcycle on the street. That experiance coupled with a street based motorcycle course (MSF) would help tremendously.

a big problem i've seen with riders that get lucky and don't die from their poor decisions... is that they often write it off as just something that happens. its just part of riding.. everyone goes down right?

far too many riders don't learn a damn thing. not the right things atleast.

for example... i know of a rider that bought a cbr600rr for his first bike. we advised against it but he didn't listen. a week after buying it... he claimed he was bored with it cus it was too slow and he needed a liter bike.

then he talked about how he laid it down in traffic one day, how he almost hit a car one day... etc etc etc.

What did he learn from the wreck... "i should have had frame sliders".. his exact words.. not joking.

Some people just dont get it. sadly, some of them just can't be helped because they don't want to be

I have to disagree with the size of the bike argument. Most of the stories I hear about  that deal with new riders crashing have to do with one of the following:

1) Running off the road due to target fixation
2) Low siding do to grabbing a handful of brake in a corner
3) Locking up either the front or rear wheel during panic braking

I would say the number that actually crash due to power related issues such as lighting the rear wheel up coming out of a corner or unintention wheelies is small. A little bike like a ninja 250 is just as susceptible to the three reasons listed above. What it comes down to is proper training (MSF and others) and not riding over you head.

I totally agree with you, I discouraged the purchase of the R6 in the first place, but a ninja didn't look cool enough.  When I was told this morning about the wreck, I told him I hate to say it but since he was still walking it was probably good the bike was gone.  I told him to take it as a learning experience and if he decided to get another one down the road; he should take the cautious route by buying a small bike and taking the appropriate training.

No, it's not (as to #2 + #3).  The brakes are dogshit.  Bad for braking, but good for not locking them up even in panic braking.  It's a classic example of Statler's point about "slop in controls" being good for first timers.

As for #1, don't discount approach speeds and bike size/weight as they affect target fixation.  A wee bitty ninja is going to approach a turn slower (and be slower through it) and be easier to turn for an inexperienced rider.  Both of those gives more time and leeway to respond if you start fixating. 

As a newb, I thought I should chime in.  Before buying my first bike at 41, my prior riding experience was limited to a single ride on a minibike, a bunch of rides on the old Honda  three-wheelers, and riding my wife's scooter in college.  I am pretty athletic and had prior car racing experience so I had at least some background in the physics and skills required to ride.  I also read a lot...Proficient Motorcycling, Sport Riding Techniques, Total Control, etc. and took the MSF safety class and, though I LOVED the S4RTestastretta and the Triumph Speed Triple, I decided a bike with that much power would be a mistake.  I knew at the time that I would probably drop it at least once when I started to ride and that I should have gotten a Suzuki SV650, I was drawn to the look and feel of the Monster.  Since buying my 695 last April, I've put on 11,000 miles in all weather conditions including rain, hail, and  snow (we're having a weird winter here).  

Lessons learned in the first year of riding:

1. The day I passed my MSF course (I was qualified to ride in a parking lot at that point) I went for my very first ride and promptly dumped the bike when I braked in sand while pulling off the road.  Except for a broken shift lever, the bike and I were fine = riding is A LOT harder than it looks.  I should have paid more attention to the road conditions and not locked up when the front wheel began to slide.

2. After several months of riding I felt confident enough to go out with a friend with years of experience.  On a tight left turn, I hit a dip in the road at the apex of a turn, froze, fixated on the ditch, and rode right in.  I went over the handle bars and remember seeing sky, mud, sky, mud, sky, mud etc.  Remarkably,  the bike and I were fine again except for a bent handle bar.  Riding home I looked like the swamp thing. = riding well is A LOT harder than it looks.  It is impossibly easy to fixate and you really do go where you look.  

3.  I've  made a bunch of other errors and have had some emergency situations...trying to keep up with far more skilled riders (a great idea if you want to kill yourself), losing the front on gravel accelerating out of a turn, being run off the road by cab (a foot in the fender tends to get their attention), etc. and have felt my skill and confidence level increase.    That said, I am still a long way from being what I'd call a proficient rider.  I still read obsessively, try to ride every day, and am signed up fora track school this summer.  I've also discovered that I love to ride....I get depressed when I can't....and that I want to do this until I age to the point that I physically cannot do it any more.  I'll get a side car then.  [moto]

Count me as a "survivor" of the learning curve  ;D

I don't get too crazy though so that probably has something to do with it.

I think for a lot of new riders these days the issue is they don't want to ride the gay-looking 250 and 500 Ninjas. They want the cool-looking GSXR or whatever right away.  And they dont want to spend a weekend riding the 250s at the MSF class either cause its not cool or whatever.

I learned on a dirtbike at a pretty young age and let me tell you that is a great way to learn.  Dirt is much more forgiving than pavement.  [roll]  Then I went over 10 years without riding before getting my first streetbike: mine was a gay looking $1,000 Ninja 500.  AND I took the MSF class too just so I could be as prepared as possible.  I learned a lot on that bike and even though it wasnt the cool bike, it was something I couldn't easily get myself into trouble on and I got my techniques down on it.  I did almost dump it twice (both times on a sandy corner) but managed to never even so much as tip it over.  It was a VERY FORGIVING bike.

Then came the Monster!  

I plan to take the advanced rider course hopefully this summer.  Always more to learn!

+1.  I started at a very early age in the dirt as well.  I have not met a dirt rider that has not been down in the dirt, which in many cases means you are riding close to the edge of control under a variety of conditions.  I would never ride this way on the street, but you may get closer to this type of riding at a track day.  I think that a lot can be learned about the handling characteristics of a bike in those conditions.  

I agree that the slop does give a forgiving buffer. I will say though that, during my own MSF course so many years ago, more than one person locked up a front tire resulting in a dropped bike during the parking lot drills. This was on Nighthawk 250's. The average driver jumping onto a bike has the instinct, it a panic situation, to mash the brake as hard as possible.

If you are still not convinced, we could go borrow someones Ninja 250 and take turns trying to lock up the front wheel.  [thumbsup]

Been there, done that.  Slid four-yever on my butt and speed hump (rotating slowly the entire time -- kinda trippy) and came to rest about 20 feet from an ambulance waiting by the turnworker station.  Paramedic rolled down his window, asked if I was ok, and then just rolled it back up after I told him I mighta broke a nail.   [laugh]  Seriously, I did break a nail though. 

I picked up the nickname "saddlebags" for a while because I chose an old honda shadow to learn on.  All the newbie kids on parent sponsored rides loved to make fun of me...but I had more fun learning and pushing the limits of that little bike than they did riding in ditches, picking themselves and bikes up off the road, explaining what happened to moms 10k, or riding the curves at granny speeds.

I laid mine down at a gas station once. I was getting off and was thinking about where my wallet was, and forgot to put the kick stand down. By the time I realized what I did it was to late to catch it. I was able to get under it enough not the actually damage anything, fell really slow. I felt like a total dope though.  :-\

Idk about the dirt thing-I think the same rules sort of apply.


I mean, Jammen, who's been riding for about 4-5 years recently got into it. Bought a WR400 and something, and a few months into it, managed to go over the bars, and have the bike flip over and break his pelvis. He's only recently started riding again. Would a less powerful bike have helped? Maybe. He rides a Brutale most of the time-not exactly slow bikes.

A lighter bike probably would have helped-if only from the extent of the injury.


Those helicopter rides are 30K these days, fyi. Dirtbiking lends itself to some pretty out of the way places-if one does get hurt or damages the bike, getting it and yourself out may be an issue as well.


I'm not saying it's not better, but it probably also has some points against it.

very well put...

I rode my friends 250 ninja from the person she bought it from back to her house and i can definitely vouch for the "softer" controls.  Even compared to my lowly s2r800, the controls on the ninja were for more forgiving. 

Also, because the bike is so much lighter and smaller, its a lot easier to turn. 

Another thing i have noticed with most squid bikes, i mean sport bikes is that the clutches are super stiff.  I dont know if it has to do with the fact that they are almost all cable actuated but it seems more difficult to feather in gently.  I love how smooth the clutch pull is on the Duc.

Just to add my 2pence...I was really glad I spent $2k on a used GS500 instead of 10K on a new Monster when I sliid it across an intersection (and very conveniently into the corner of a hospital...I may be clumsy, but my aim is good!)  No cause for the accident except for noob-itude...I made a panic stop by grabbing the front brake and immediately went down.  Definitely one of those "I had no choice but to drop the bike" that was really just inexperience.  Once I got a bit more experience and wanted more power I bought a 620 (Hey, I'm in no rush  ;D) and sold the 500 for...$2000.  That's another argument for starting small...Smaller bikes hold their value much better than bigger bikes, so you'll lose a lot less $$ if you try to unload a 250 or 500 japanes than a 1098.

I guess I forgot to mention this, but on the bright side, the latest victim, the R6 (50mph highside), was wearing helmet, gloves, riding boots, riding jacket, & jeans and walked into work this morning with a few sore muscles and a little bit of road rash on the calf...not bad.  He was hurt less than the other 3 who crashed at 25mph or less who were wearing minimal gear.

I suspect you haven't seen Spidey having fun on weekends? He tries valiantly to lock the front of his 250 Ninja at turn 4, 6, 7, an 11 every single lap (the damned thing doesn't go fast enough to need much braking at any of the other turns at Infineon...)

big

I have to say I am continually impressed by the general attitude of this forum about riding. You folks continually stress proper riding gear, start slowly working your way up and ride within your means. Most folks in the motorcycle community don't have such a level of respect for the beginning rider and the sport of motorcycling as a whole. Props to you.

Yeah, and they call themselves "hooligans"! *Frauds* the lot of them!  [evil]

big

This is just the results of stupidity. Why would someone who hasn't done something think they can do it? It's like doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get something other than what you got before doing the same thing.

It's nice to know there is a never ending supply of track bikes. [thumbsup]

read these articles when I was shopping for first bike, I have them bookmarked for any time I hear a newbie ask about 1st bikes

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151947 (http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151947)

http://forums.sportrider.com/70/591801/new-riders/new-riders-please-read-this-updated/index.html (http://forums.sportrider.com/70/591801/new-riders/new-riders-please-read-this-updated/index.html)

While i think there is validity to the bike size versus experience level equation, I think motorcycle safely is more a factor of attitude and respect for all the really bad shit that can happen to you if you screw up.

  I have many years of dirt and motocross experience (and a few scars to prove it).  My attitude then was one of pushing both the bike and myself to the limit, and sometimes beyond.  I can't tell you the number of times I thought to myself while flying through the air after landing badly on a double or getting sideways in the whoops, "oooooh, this is gonna hurt."  And sometimes it did hurt, but the gear protected you and the ground was relatively soft, so you dusted yourself off and got back on for some more.  Acting a little crazy--and crashing as a result of it--was just part of the fun and exhileration of the sport.  And it often made you a better rider.

Now, every time I get on my Monster, I'm all business.  No crazyness allowed because pavement, trees, and large steel vehicles will kill you.  My MX experience has saved my ass during a couple of :o moments where I know I would have crashed without it.  I never show off for the girls or pull a power wheelie from a stop light  because the one time you let Mr. Crazy sneak in and get the best of you, some cager is going to cut in front of you or you are going to hit a nice patch of gravel.  It's an unalterable law of the universe.

I know I'm stating the obvious, but I often wonder what these squids on gixxers and CBRs are thinking with their minimal gear weaving in and out of traffic or pulling wheelies off the line and looking at me like I'm the squid.  Must be nice to be bulletproof.   

Ivan- If you are ready to get a bike, get one.  But don't get an SS or a 1000cc Monster.

My first bike was an SV650 I bought new and put 30K miles on before guard railing it (in full gear thank God) and destroying the bike.  Had I been on a supersport, I'd have crashed a dozen times before.  I tended to get nervy and use the brakes mid corner to scrub speed.  Got pretty good at trail braking because, and only because the SV650's brakes weren't up to the task of putting me on my asphalt...

The  point is, there are cool(ish) beginner bikes, but the options are few.  The SV650, the Ninja 650, the 6XX series Monsters...  You may see a trend here, all twins! 

There's a big upside to riding these machines; well a few actually.
1. Price and resale (they are cheaper and depreciate less)
2. They are like a buffer, as noted earlier, you can be hamfisted and not pay too dearly
(I skipped the front tyre of my SV a few times in corner, at what I thought was a steep lean angle years before I touched my knee down, without a mishap)
3. WHEN....  You've lived through the initiation, and become a proficient rider, smokin riders on faster bikes (let's say, "at the track", for PC's sake) feels really great from the cockpit of the slow bike!!!  Inversely, getting your arse handed to you by a rider on a cheaper, "slower" bike doesn't engender feelings of manlyness.....  One day after getting a ticket (at the track of course) that was totally bogus (at the track, needless to say) I decided to go ahead and do a little going.  I was on my home roa-err track and had a fair grasp of the....  whatever...  Anyways, on my SV, I caught up to this tool on a 1098S.  He saw me, and took off like a scalded cat down every straight, but got on the brakes too heavy for every turn.  So I out braked him, passed on the inside whilst he was "setting up" and candy coated the turn for him whilst barely ever touching the brakes.  Believe me, he knew those twin tail-beams were off my $3K SV650.....  I know he knew, because the next week when I went to his shop for parts, he wasn't near as friendly as he used to be...   [bang]  He knew he'd just been toasted by a bike worth roughly 1/8th his bike had just handed him his arse.  The bummer was, he knew it was me riding it, but that just goes to show you should control your temper when you are... umm...  at the track. 

Anyhow, long story short, get a bike, take classes, assume you know nothing.  If you want a Monster and have the fundage, get one!  Honestly anything less than (and maybe including) the 800 Monster is pretty easy going, and pretty easy to upgrade as your skills increase.  Just take the classes, and wear proper gear.

Mike_D, good post,good advice. IMHO, the best place to learn to ride is the dirt. Learn to control a slide and how to get off without nearly as much pain as you get on pavement. I grew up riding dirtbikes, and if we did not crash at least 20 times a day we weren't riding hard enough, and since I started riding on the street 30 years ago I've never been down on the pavement. Lucky I guess.

Wow, there's a lotta commentary in here so far and it's only the first day. I got about half way through and stopped reading and decided to just randomly throw out my experiences. I feel that the largest component to accidents for a new rider is the rider and not the bike. Yes, it's easier to go fast on a bigger bike. Yes, bigger bikes tend to be less forgiving of mistakes. But a competent new rider should know to ride within their limits. They should be able to understand when they're in over their heads and do something about it before it's too late. I took the MSF class and then practiced riding around the cul de sac that I lived on before hitting public streets.

My first bike was '93 Secca II (XJ600). It's a simple bike and rather heavy. Not a lot of scoot off the line but it got me around. It was a bit tall for me and the first thing I did when I got it was tip over at a stop on a perpendicular incline. After that, I had a few oh shit moments when I locked up the rear, each time due to panic braking. The first time I got lucky and skidded through an empty intersection. The second time I got lucky and  managed to stop in time, the third time I hit a car that was turning left in front of me.  :-\

After that bike I got the monster. My first accident was running off the road while coming to a stop. Totally stupid accident due to not being observant. After that, I've have numerous close calls and many small scrapes. I've nearly gotten creamed more than I can remember while lane splitting due to my own stupidity. I've also had at least one insurance claim a year for the last 3 years due to cages hitting me.

I didn't come anywhere close to hitting windies until I felt comfortable on the bike so any of this "oh shit moment going around a curve at 50" crap in the first month of riding really pisses me off. Maybe they thought they were comfortable but I don't really see how you can be after only having the bike for a few weeks and not having had any training. Maybe I'm just overly cautious but you should respect your bike and understand that your next oh shit moment could be last and err on the side of caution and practice more before you go anywhere.

When my friend started riding he started on a CBR 600. I told him it was probably a bit too big for a starter bike and it scared the shit outa him. He rode home at 40-50mph... on the freeway... when he bought it. On surface streets he would ride at 10-20mph in a 40 zone. I felt that was incredibly dangerous but what is more dangerous: him riding too slow for traffic (I was buffering behind him and waving people around us) or him riding out of his limits? He made it through pretty well but it was a very slow progression. He's still not a super great rider but now he has the confidence and skill to ride every day and hit the twisties. He might still panic and drop it going too slow in a hair pin  but for the most part he does fine. I feel he handled the "large" bike pretty well for a nooby because he understood how dangerous it could be and rode within his limits.

A small group of my friends started riding after I left college and out of the 4 of them, all have take the MSF class and 2 have low sided. I know one was due to target fixation and the other I'm not sure. Both were riding a ninja 250 when they crashed. It's not always the bike. Most of the time it's the rider.

Since I had a bad crash about a year ago , I read a book by Keith Code ( who is famous for his racing history and running his Superbike Schools all around the country) and it has made me so much better as a motorcycle rider.
 
The title of his book is " A Twist of the Wrist ."

In his book he talks at great length about what causes us to have most of our single bike accidents.

He talks about SR . SR is your Survival Response. In other words what you do when you find yourself in a scary situation and how giving in to the Survival Response leads most often to a bad outcome.

Target Fixation , not looking through a corner .You should always be looking out as far as you can  through a corner to where you want to go , otherwise you will go where you are looking, which is normally bad,  especially if you are riding fast .

The use of Counter Steering is a must . It's one of the easiest ways to turn a bike especially in a tight corner. How to overcome all the bad habits that are a natural response to treacherous situations.

Basically teaching you how to react in a positive way to all the scenarios that present themselves in front of you as you motor along .

I have become much more confident in knowing what I can expect my bike to do in any given situation and what I SHOULD DO and what I SHOULD NEVER DO .

You will learn to become one with your bike. You'll learn what the limits are , how much you should lean the bike in corners , how to pick your entrance point to a corner and when to roll off the gas and when to roll on the the gas.

When to brake , how hard to brake , how not to upset your bike by inputting more than one action in a corner at a certain point .

It's an easy book to read and follow with illustrations and summations.

I would recommend it for any rider to read . It will make you a better, safer rider with more confidence so that you don't fear your bike but you will embrace it.    Dolph     :)

Sage advice all; thanks for sharing and mentoring, his is why I like you ggggggguuuuuuyyyyyyyysssssssss.

How many have read "The Pace"?, slightly different audience and a slightly different subject; its a great article on street riding; you can google the full article; its the take away mindset I find is the the most valuable & correct.  

With experience I'm more carefull than when I first got my street bike.  I rode on dirt for 7 years; the road is very different.  A couple of experiences that I think "what if" this or that happened; if there was oil on the road when I was riding too fast and gearing down too fast (rear smoking) I would have slid through that stop ... or dam! I was going to fast and that lady talking on her cell phone that stopped 1/4 way through her left seeing the motorcycle at the last second ...I'd be dead ...

This is a healthy discussion; especially at the beginning of the season ... it reminds us to take it easy and ride defensively

The Pace
Separating street from track, riding from racing
By Nick Ienatsch

"THE PACE

The Pace focuses on bike control and de-emphasizes outright speed. Full-throttle acceleration and last minute braking aren't part of the program, effectively eliminating the two most common single-bike accident scenarios in sport riding. Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. Since the throttle wasn't slammed open at the exit of the last corner, the next corner doesn't require much, if any, braking. It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.

If the brakes are required, the front lever gets squeezed smoothly, quickly and with a good deal of force to set entrance speed in minimum time. Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long. Running The Pace decreases your reliance on the throttle and brakes, the two easiest controls to abuse, and hones your ability to judge cornering speed, which is the most thrilling aspect of performance street riding."

YOUR LANE IS YOUR LIMIT
Crossing the centerline at any time except during a passing maneuver is intolerable, another sign that you're pushing too hard ...."

Ride on ..... brothers and sisters.  [moto]

I would argue that a new rider cannot be considered competent.

    Dave, when are the words new and competent used together in the same sentence. That would be like saying a college graduate is experienced in their field of study when all they have done is what was required to graduate.

Did I miss something along the line ?   Dolph     :)   

 ???

I guess you're right. You can't be competent at something and still be new. How about reasonable new rider? Or maybe smart new rider?

I've only been riding for 4 years, and I definitely consider myself to be a "new" rider. I had very little desire for a big bike when I started: My first experience on a bike was learning to ride my friend's Ninja 250 in a hospital parking lot, and after about an hour I got too confident and dumped it at very low speed (tried braking during a tight turn). Being the super understanding friend that he is, he shrugged it off and we pushed it home. Luckily it was very minimal damage to the bike, and none to me.

After that, I took the msf course, and bought a Vespa GT200. It was enough for me at first, and at the end of that year I was riding it from Philly to VA, and even took it through Deals Gap a few times. I then graduated to a CB350, then a Monster 620. Each of these was just enough bike for my experience level. And as previously mentioned, each came with a graduation of response in both the engine and controls.

Last week I upgraded to a Brutale 910s, and it is MUCH more bike than I am used to. The throttle/brake/clutch response has less room for error than any of my previous bikes. And I respect the hell out of it. I am glad I made the progression I did, as there are mistakes I made on the other bikes without consequence that could cause me to crash with this bike.

Do I think it's too much bike? Probably. But not if I ride it with the respect it (and any other motorcycle) deserves, and operate it as safely as I did my prior bikes.

I've been riding for 18 years, dirt, street, track, supermoto, even a little trials.  Never stop learning!  Thanks all to the great posts - helpful for and respectful of all. 

I too have experience in the dirt going back to when I was 5 years old. I used to compete in peewee races on a KX60 and YZ80 and had an XL400 in high school. Quit riding after that, then about four years ago I took the MSF class, got a used SV650 and thought it was a rocket. I miss the bike actually, I now have an S2R 800cc and believe it's as fast as I'd want a bike to be. I can't imagine the power of an S4RS when the little 800 is so damn death-defying to ride as it is. I think I'll stay put and just do mods vs upgrading bikes. It's good to be satisfied.