Due for a 40, 000 km service, very impressed with the reliability of this machine over the last coupla years/ 20,000 km
I seldom thrash it and most of the mileage has been highway riding
Intend on a doing the cam belts , oil, etc. but the motor is running sweetly, there's no tappet noise, the plugs look perfect, compression is fine, fuel usage unchanged.
I'm pretty familiar with older bevel drive Ducs, once set the shimming didn't need any fiddling with for yonks, unless the cam was wearing out.
How often do these Monster shims really need to be done ? Wouldn't there be a few warning noises if they were getting a bit too loose ?
Surely some naughty person has neglected to have this checked for a wee bit longer than recommended ?
The real question is how often do they need to be checked, since once broken in the settings can last a long time. The problem is if a valve is too tight or way to loose expen$ive damage can occur.
As modern Ducs get the mileage on (like your 40km), they need less and less valve shim fiddling. I did a 24K(miles) service on a customers 1999 M750 and set the shims up nicely. My customer brought the bike back at 30K and the shims had barely moved. Two openers opened up 0.001" and one closer opened up 0.001". Nothing else moved.
A friend has 200km on his ST2 (120K miles) and he checks his valves every 20K as well as changing belts every 20K. (I don't recommend the belts, but he's a Ducati guy. YMMV on the 20K belt interval).
What I would do if it were my bike: change the belts, look at the valve specs and change the oil and fuel filter. After that?!? Ride it. [moto]
So in your opinion my 2001 m900ie with 12K(miles) probably isn't exactly dialed in yet? I ask cause I just checked the specs and it seems like my valve clearances are a little tight and I was considering leaving them. For instance my vertical cylinder opener shim measures >.038mm but <.05mm. I should man up and get them in spec, it's just that the weather has been really nice. ;D On a related note. When getting my vertical cylinder into TDC there is a line not a dot in the sight glass. There are a million dots but none of them seem to line up even close to where the piston feels like its at the top of the stroke. This is making me nervous because if I go by the line my valves are out of spec if I go purely by feel they are in spec. I have done valve shim jobs on other bikes but this is my first on the Duc.
Quote from: Gimpy on March 22, 2009, 03:08:48 PM
So in your opinion my 2001 m900ie with 12K(miles) probably isn't exactly dialed in yet? I ask cause I just checked the specs and it seems like my valve clearances are a little tight and I was considering leaving them. For instance my vertical cylinder opener shim measures >.038mm but <.05mm. I should man up and get them in spec, it's just that the weather has been really nice. ;D On a related note. When getting my vertical cylinder into TDC there is a line not a dot in the sight glass. There are a million dots but none of them seem to line up even close to where the piston feels like its at the top of the stroke. This is making me nervous because if I go by the line my valves are out of spec if I go purely by feel they are in spec. I have done valve shim jobs on other bikes but this is my first on the Duc.
When I'm shimming valves on a Duc, I rotate the piston until they are at or near TDC ( +/- a degree or two ain't going to kill anything). I then remove the timing belt. That allows me to freely rotate the cam to whatever position I need to in order to slide the openers around, or get a feel for where the base-circle of the cam is, whatever. It's just really easy when you do it this way. Then, I re-time the cylinders when I'm all done with both.
IMO, @ 12K...your valves are approaching seated into the heads and (the most mobile part of the valve train:) the valve circlips have just about beaten themselves into complete submission.
Another thing, if you run a closer too tight, you can damage the rocker arm (flaking chrome is nobody's idea of a good time). If you run the opener tight, you run the risk of the valve having no where to thermally expand to when engine heat gets into it (think vertical exhaust here). If the valve opens up, you loose compression out of that cylinder (and power) and run the risk of burning the valve (think big $$$ here). I would MUCH, MUCH rather run valves too loose than too tight.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 22, 2009, 03:16:03 PM
When I'm shimming valves on a Duc, I rotate the piston until they are at or near TDC ( +/- a degree or two ain't going to kill anything). I then remove the timing belt. That allows me to freely rotate the cam to whatever position I need to in order to slide the openers around, or get a feel for where the base-circle of the cam is, whatever. It's just really easy when you do it this way. Then, I re-time the cylinders when I'm all done with both.
IMO, @ 12K...your valves are approaching seated into the heads and (the most mobile part of the valve train:) the valve circlips have just about beaten themselves into complete submission.
Another thing, if you run a closer too tight, you can damage the rocker arm (flaking chrome is nobody's idea of a good time). If you run the opener tight, you run the risk of the valve having no where to thermally expand to when engine heat gets into it (think vertical exhaust here). If the valve opens up, you loose compression out of that cylinder (and power) and run the risk of burning the valve (think big $$$ here). I would MUCH, MUCH rather run valves too loose than too tight.
Thanks!!! That's a great idea! When you re time the cylinders do you do anything other than lining up all the marks?? I'm replacing the belts as well so this is kinda a no brainer. Thanks again for the advice [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Quote from: Gimpy on March 22, 2009, 03:34:12 PM
Thanks!!! That's a great idea! When you re time the cylinders do you do anything other than lining up all the marks?? I'm replacing the belts as well so this is kinda a no brainer. Thanks again for the advice [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
When I'm trying to beat the clock (doing service while a customer waits, or not having much time) and I'm going to replace the belts, I don't bother to remove them. I just cut them off and have at it.
Yes, just line up the marks and adjust your tension rollers and you're good to go (I'm assuming here you know how to change out timing belts, right?).
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 22, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
When I'm trying to beat the clock (doing service while a customer waits, or not having much time) and I'm going to replace the belts, I don't bother to remove them. I just cut them off and have at it.
Yes, just line up the marks and adjust your tension rollers and you're good to go (I'm assuming here you know how to change out timing belts, right?).
Well I have LT Snyders book , and a Haynes manual, but I have never done it before. Seems pretty straight forward. Align marks - add belts - check tension - torque everything down - check tension again. I'll also check out Chris Kelly's videos before I go to crazy.
My bike has 42k on it now. The last time the dealer did a valve adjustment for me he said because of the mileage to check them every 12k. At that time I had about 25k on it. I checked the valves myself since then and have not had to make any adjustments. He said with the higher mileage everything is seated and the adjustments don't need to be done as often. The last time I checked them I checked everything 4 times because I couldn't believe the measurement were fine.
While adjusting the valves takes some skill and special tools, checking them is fairly easy. Just take off the valve covers, rotate the engine, and measure your clearances. All you need is an allen key, feeler gauge, and a new set of valve cover gaskets. It's cheap, easy, and will answer your question for sure. If something is out of spec you can decide what to do from there.
There are great videos on the web showing how to do this. If you don't feel confident tackling this yourself ask for assistance, someone here will be happy to help.
Scott
Mine on the M750 didn't require any adjustments at the 18K, 24K, nor 30K. Once I hit 36K and make sure everything is still in spec, (belt interval) I may started only doing the belt interval service and check the valves then.
JM
I've got around 240,000km on my 99 M750, and I haven't changed a shim in over 100,000km. I changed all of them to "old school" specs at the 80,000km service (this first one I did myself), then needed the tweak two shims sometime after that, and have just checked them every 10,000km ever since (I think a couple of closers are probably a little looser than I'd set them if I was gonna go in and change any, but not as loose as the "new world" spec...)
big
Either 'new' or 'old' world specs, I find it odd that Ducati DOESN'T put the fact that the Desmo valves get better with age into any of their advertising...
Also, I recently 'educated' a Monster owner and friend who was swapping out his stock split-rings at every valve adjustment. If you do that (and I can see his reasoning), the valves never really 'seat' in as the split ring does almost all of the shifting of measurements over time.
Oh, he's on the board....but I'm not telling who it is. :P
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 27, 2009, 07:36:34 AM
Either 'new' or 'old' world specs, I find it odd that Ducati DOESN'T put the fact that the Desmo valves get better with age into any of their advertising...
Also, I recently 'educated' a Monster owner and friend who was swapping out his stock split-rings at every valve adjustment. If you do that (and I can see his reasoning), the valves never really 'seat' in as the split ring does almost all of the shifting of measurements over time.
Oh, he's on the board....but I'm not telling who it is. :P
So, how often do you change the collets?
And, shouldn't one just buy MBP's and forget about the split rings forever?
I check/adjust valves on my bike every winter (04 M1000). This past winter I changed 2 openers and 2 closers at 20,000 miles (enough to change - not actually out of spec.). This was the biggest change since the 6,000 mile check.
Quote from: Jobu on March 27, 2009, 10:17:26 AM
So, how often do you change the collets?
And, shouldn't one just buy MBP's and forget about the split rings forever?
I never change them. Unless they're broken, they go back in.
MBP? Nice stuff for sure, but I'm having good enough luck with the stock split rings.
Quote from: Jobu on March 27, 2009, 10:17:26 AM
So, how often do you change the collets?
And, shouldn't one just buy MBP's and forget about the split rings forever?
And further, you don't want to change them and you do want to install them same side down. The collets seat a little when they are new. This compresses them and leaves one side shinier than the other. This contributes to your first service valve adjustment. If you flip them, they reseat and you need to adjust your valves again.
If the MBP's are the ones I'm thinking of, yeah they're great, niced machined little beauties. But I think they cost over $100 while the stock ones are a few dollars each. Once the stockers seat they don't seem to change much.
All of this is well detailed in the Desmo Times manual, including which way the shiny side goes on re-install and the MBP's. It has nice things to say about the MBPs, after the first adjustment you're pretty well set it seems, they don't shift. Nice stuff but a lot of money IMO.
Scott
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 27, 2009, 07:36:34 AM
Either 'new' or 'old' world specs, I find it odd that Ducati DOESN'T put the fact that the Desmo valves get better with age into any of their advertising...
I'm reasonably sure Ducati thinks anyone who keeps one of their bikes much past 20k is a pinko communist weirdo and don't want anything to do with them since they aren't about to buy the latest new model, and are just going to complain and whinge 'cause the parts they need aren't in stock locally...
big
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 27, 2009, 11:44:27 AM
I never change them. Unless they're broken, they go back in.
MBP? Nice stuff for sure, but I'm having good enough luck with the stock split rings.
Hmmm, good to know. Consider me the second member you've educated not to change the collets. It seems I may have caused myself some work later on down the road, as my split rings were probably setup nicely. :-\
Quote from: bigiain on March 27, 2009, 09:11:15 PM
I'm reasonably sure Ducati thinks anyone who keeps one of their bikes much past 20k is a pinko communist weirdo and don't want anything to do with them since they aren't about to buy the latest new model, and are just going to complain and whinge 'cause the parts they need aren't in stock locally...
big
Right on my brother! Power to the People!!! [raises clenched fist] [cheeky]
Quote from: Jobu on March 28, 2009, 03:52:15 AM
Hmmm, good to know. Consider me the second member you've educated not to change the collets. It seems I may have caused myself some work later on down the road, as my split rings were probably setup nicely. :-\
Just be sure you re-install them with the correct side down. Otherwise, since you're wearing previously unworn areas of the split ring, it's like installing new ones...
Quote from: bigiain on March 27, 2009, 09:11:15 PM
I'm reasonably sure Ducati thinks anyone who keeps one of their bikes much past 20k is a pinko communist weirdo and don't want anything to do with them since they aren't about to buy the latest new model, and are just going to complain and whinge 'cause the parts they need aren't in stock locally...
big
[laugh] Nice!! I'm still in the middle of a weeks long valve service. I didn't know about the collets. Thanks very much for bringing that up! I am starting to think I need to buy the shim kit. It's a lot of money, but I can't seem to figure out a process that will allow me to keep all the little things I need together. I can do one valve at a time and go to the shop 8 times, or I can pull them all out and go once. Any advice?
You can pull them all, taking all your measurements first, and take lots of notes. You may be able to swap shims between valves to get them in spec. Figure what you need and take the old shims to the shop with you, some shops will exchange shims for less than the purchase price. Make sure you bring your calipers with you, or have the shop measure your shims and get the new ones based on that measurement. Do that for 3-4 yrs, get sick of the PITA and buy a shim set. ;D
Quote from: Gimpy on March 28, 2009, 01:25:01 PM
[laugh] Nice!! I'm still in the middle of a weeks long valve service. I didn't know about the collets. Thanks very much for bringing that up! I am starting to think I need to buy the shim kit. It's a lot of money, but I can't seem to figure out a process that will allow me to keep all the little things I need together. I can do one valve at a time and go to the shop 8 times, or I can pull them all out and go once. Any advice?
Yes, measure each valve clearance and write it down. Now measure both shims for that valve and write that down too. Do this for every valve and write everything down. Now do some math. (These numbers are made up but you'll get the idea). If your clearance is .03 and you want .02 and your shim is .12, you need a shim that is .13. That .01 diff makes up the difference and gets you the clearance you want. On the other hand, if your clearance was .01 you'd need a .11 shim.
If you write down all your clearances and all your shim measurements you'll be able to do two things:
1) See if you can swap some around so you have to buy fewer shims.
2) If after swapping you find everything is fine but a few shims are too big you can sand them down.
Some folks will tell you not to sand your shims since it removes the hardened top coating on the shim. I've had no trouble doing this but the choice is yours.
If you want to sand down a shim you will need a flat surface, 600-800 grit wet sandpaper, and some light oil lubricant. A marble tile is cheap and pretty flat, a shop table is not flat. WD-40 works nicely as a lubricant. Lay the sandpaper on the tile, spray some wd-40, and applying even pressure rub the flat surface of the shim in circles slowly sanding it. Rotate the shim in your grip often to be sure you're getting a flat even surface and not creating a slanted surface. Spray some more WD-40 often. Measure very often, you don't want to go to far. Wipe away the mess now and then.
Sand or don't, your choice.
Anyway, if you do all the measuring and all the swapping, you'll know how many shims you need and what size and since you opened every one for measuring you'll know if you have any broken collets to replace. Then you can go buy them all at once. You can measure in inches of mm but I think the stock shims are sold in mm. Take your measuring tool to the dealer when you buy shims, measure them on the spot. They may be labeled wrong and you don't want to have to drive all the way back after you install it and find that out.
On the other hand, I'm considering buying the shim kit too just to have everything right there. I'm lazy :) It's probably much cheaper to buy just what you need as you go and after a round or two you probably won't be adjusting that much.
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on March 27, 2009, 02:00:37 PM
And further, you don't want to change them and you do want to install them same side down.
This made me look at the receipt from the last valve adjust. "Replaced all valve retainers/half rings" [bang] I was hoping i wouldn't have much to adjust when I try myself in a month.
How much did that cost? Finding one or two broken is not uncommon, all of them is. Are they just padding the bill?
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on March 29, 2009, 08:53:31 AM
How much did that cost? Finding one or two broken is not uncommon, all of them is. Are they just padding the bill?
Scott
The 7mm rings are much more common to break, the 8mm...not so much.
Quote from: bigiain on March 26, 2009, 10:51:47 PM
I've got around 240,000km on my 99 M750, and I haven't changed a shim in over 100,000km. I changed all of them to "old school" specs at the 80,000km service (this first one I did myself), then needed the tweak two shims sometime after that, and have just checked them every 10,000km ever since (I think a couple of closers are probably a little looser than I'd set them if I was gonna go in and change any, but not as loose as the "new world" spec...)
big
I gotta say.......that's some impressive mileage. I thought I was doing well with 100,000 km on my 2001 900, but wow......very nice.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 29, 2009, 09:30:58 AM
The 7mm rings are much more common to break, the 8mm...not so much.
Tell my monster that... :P
Quote from: ducpainter on March 29, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
Tell my monster that... :P
Ok, ok... They're not unbreakable, just much less likely IME. On a 4V desmoquattro, if you're doing the valves and don't have to replace at least 1 or 2, you got lucky. On a 2V, I'd see a broken one about every fourth or fifth valve adjustment. That's been my experience...your Monster may have other issues DP...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on March 29, 2009, 11:08:09 AM
Ok, ok... They're not unbreakable, just much less likely IME. On a 4V desmoquattro, if you're doing the valves and don't have to replace at least 1 or 2, you got lucky. On a 2V, I'd see a broken one about every fourth or fifth valve adjustment. That's been my experience...your Monster may have other issues DP...
My Monster has had at least one broken every 6K....or every couple of years if I was low mileing.
The clearances are set old world...and always have been.
I ran without a tach for a long time and hoped that not constantly revving the snot out of it would help.
I think it has one major issue...
loose nut in the seat. ;D
Quote from: scott_araujo on March 29, 2009, 08:53:31 AM
How much did that cost? Finding one or two broken is not uncommon, all of them is. Are they just padding the bill?
I had huge issues with that shop that required driving 4 hours to another dealer to get it fixed right. :-X That is why I am determine to learn to do all of the maintenance my self.
I just wanted to give everyone a big Thank You! I just finished the valves and the belts. it went easy as....
(nevermind) Now to tackle my suspension. Anyone have some extra Penske collets ;)