Ducati Monster Forum

Ducati already has a prototype for a new 1400cc Vyper, apparently.  Here's a photoshop:

(http://www.visordown.com/news/images/ducati-vyper.jpg)

The Visordown News article (http://www.visordown.com/motorcyclenews/view/first_look_ducati_vyper/6586.html) quotes: 

"DUCATI ARE to launch a 1400cc muscle-bound street bruiser to challenge Harley-Davidson - that's the word on the street from Italy this morning."

"It's reported the Vyper will feature a stroked version of the company's Testastretta engine, housed in Ducati's signature steel trellis frame. A 240-section rear tyre mounted in a beefy, hollow-section swingarm, is believed to also be featured on the new machine."

I gotta call BS on this one.

I really hope you are right.. It does look Photochopped.

almost april fools

 ;D

Not sure if it's Ducati's early April Fool's joke, but there are other sources talking about the same thing:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/4/88/6/Motorcycle-Blog-Post/Ducati-Vyper-to-Rival-VMax-and-V-Rod-.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/4/88/6/Motorcycle-Blog-Post/Ducati-Vyper-to-Rival-VMax-and-V-Rod-.aspx)

http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2009/03/23/vyper-is-ducati-building-a-harley-v-rod-killer.htm (http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2009/03/23/vyper-is-ducati-building-a-harley-v-rod-killer.htm)

The picture is most likely a Photochop, but the I'd be surprised if this Vyper was entirely a hoax.

Could be BS...  However, Triumph did introduce the 1600cc Thunderbird ~

JM

they make something bigger than the RIII?

If I wanted to compensate for a (ahem) shortcoming, I'd get a big truck - not a big bike!

photochopped streetfighter and total bullshit

BS on this one. Definitely Photoshop. 

A couple of reasons why it can't be real as well from a manufacturing point:

1) 4V engine from what I understand can't be bored/stroked that far
2) The oil sump would need changed -- too costly and would need new smog cert probably
3) 240 series rear tire won't fit on any Ducati swingarm -- too costly to make for such a small production run
4) Differing rake / offset would create clearance issues with the proposed gas tank shown

Is there a demand for large displacement Ducati powered cruisers to challenge V-Max's on the street.  Yes.  I've had enough inquiries to that question.  But not enough for someone ala Ducati to warrant the engineering and development costs to make a production iteration worthwhile.

I'd think it would be fantastic if they did build a prototype and unveiled it at a show though (and I know some of the Ducati folks themselves would like to do a fun project like this given past conversations) -- it would make all my customers over the years happy as well as myself that all the fun we are having on our DesmoDevil's has been noticed...

What about this one?

http://motori.it.msn.com/moto_e_scooter/scoop_moto/article.aspx?cp-documentid=14960206 (http://motori.it.msn.com/moto_e_scooter/scoop_moto/article.aspx?cp-documentid=14960206)

JM

(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/bsflag.gif)


At least.....I hope so.... [puke]

coming off a big bruiser motorcycle ( suzuki blvd M109r 1800 ) i really like it i would hit that in a heart beat.
pictures from this site are wicked although its way photochop
http://motori.it.msn.com/moto_e_scooter/scoop_moto/article.aspx?cp-documentid=14960206 (http://motori.it.msn.com/moto_e_scooter/scoop_moto/article.aspx?cp-documentid=14960206)

 Ummm...Hello! The same link is posted two posts up. It was ugly in that one and it hasn't changed just because you derbyed it.  [bang]

GET REAL!  The stroke on the DS1000 is the maximum that the current 2V engine can handle @ 71.5mm.  There's NO way to get a 1400cc Duc 2V engine with the current cases.  Period.

It would require a completely scratch built engine and I just don't see them doing anything that large of scale just to build a cruiser.  [roll]


(besides, there's still living down the first Indiana debacle!)  [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Italians don't make cruisers.

Americans don't make sportbikes.

Brits don't make dirtbikes. 

Germans don't make bikes without heated grips

Japanese don't make . . . uh . . . er . . . uh . . . mmm  . . . uh . . . make the beast with two backs, ran out of wit. 

 Wow, I didn't realize that the Testastretta was a 2V.

fixed

(can't find a pic of the japanese sailors from the film 1949 trying to stuff a Wurlitzer radio into the hatch...)

"Ducati Vyper to Rival VMax and V-Rod"

They don't need 1400cc to do that, I guess if Ducati wanted to rival the VMax and V-Rod they could stuff some lead weights under the seat of the Street Fighter

full size trucks.............?
just tryin to help... [thumbsup]

So yeah, Derby can bite me  ;D

Psst, Stew, it's a Testa engine...

pssssst  EVERYONE......

A DS1000 and the Testa cases are nearly the same damn cases (minus a few small changes which have nothing to do with the crankshaft). 

The crankshaft to timing lay-shaft dimension defines maximum crankshaft stroke on a Ducati V-twin. 

And it's frakkin' completely maxxed out with the 71.5mm crankshaft which resides in the DS1000 and DS1100 engines.

That pic looks like a vmax screwed a streetfighter.  (or vise versa take your pic)

 ;D

So what about the 1198?

106mm bore x 67.9 stroke.

If you were to put a DS1000 crank into it, the 1198 would yield a 1262cc engine.  A touch shy of 1400cc's.  They would need to put 112mm cylinders on it & a DS1000 crank in it to net a 1408cc twin.   [roll]

This entire thread is just another wild photo-chop by some motorcycle magazine looking for the next 'WOW!' bike from Ducati is all.  Look at that 'New SuperSport' that was supposedly coming out a couple months ago?!?  How about that 'New Pantah' bull-shit in another current thread...
 

[roll]

I vote they bring back the Indiana.

I thaught that the max capacity per cylinder is 600cc .. [coffee].. the max for a twin is 1200cc .....  [bang] ....

(http://www.raw-tcsd.com/status%20quo263.jpg)

I wouldn't be surprised if Ducati makes a cruiser again.  I would be surprised if it is a 4 valve and looks sorta like a raked out Streetfighter.  They should probably sub contract the design to  Duck-Stew and Motocreations. 

Funny you should mention that howie...  There *is* a new chopper/cruiser in the works!*



















*:  Works translates to:it's built already in my head....now I'm trying to finance it's real construction!  [laugh]

^^^anything I would like to own?^^^

that cruiser design is ugly with the two huge radiators on it.  horrible looking bike.

Regardless, I can't see a cruiser selling with radiators hanging off the front. There are ways of getting more stroke in the current air cooled cases, but even with 102 or 104 pistons, you ain't gonna get 1600.

my cruiser-esque italian bike will be a moto guzzi at this point. I don't want an origami cruiser from Ducati, though I would like a good long distance bike from Ducati.

Really?  I'd like to know how you plan on surpassing the 71.5mm crank of the DS1000 engines?  I'm really curious!

is there no way to clearance the case and shave the crank?

when i did vw engines, we could do up to a 94mm stroke, a full 25mm over stock.  required quite a bit of material inside the case shaved out and reinforcing added to the outside.

The interference point on a Duc V-twin is the centerline distance between the crankshaft and the timing layshaft (also taking into account the material around the big-end of the connecting rod.  As it is on a stock DS engine, the cranks will not freely spin around unless the rods are held at the correct angle without the big-ends hitting the timing layshaft.  It's that close.

If someone wants to turn down the timing layshaft some (don't know how much is safe...), you could net a little more stroke that way but as it is...stroking a Duc twin is just about maxxed out with the 71.5mm DS crank.


That is, unless Norm knows more about this than I do.....   (I'm waiting to see if he knows some secret about this.)

Technically they do (the current Guzzi California and a in the past Guzzi's from the 70's) but practically, your right, they don't. The California was not what I would call a quality ride.

I'm kinda "meh" on the Vyper. Leave the customs to small builders. 

gotcha, so you'd need more distance to the bottom of the jug hole and the layshaft needs to be further away.. i have a feeling the layshaft clearancing is not feasible due to oil pressure, unless there is no oil galley in the layshaft??

As far as stroke goes:  The lay-shaft has no oil passage, so it could be made slightly thinner (I think it's 12mm OD but would have to measure one) so it could POSSIBLY be turned down to allow greater crank and rod clearance but at what point does it become too much effort?!? Also, the spigot ends of the barrels on a DS engine are already 'notched' for rod clearance.  More stroke would require more notching of the barrels. 

Also, as stroke goes up (and the top of the barrels are a fixed point), you've got less room @ TDC to fit 1/2 the crank stroke, a connecting rod and a piston in that distance.  As it is, the DS piston is kinda tight in it's pin to deck height but could be made slightly shorter.  Either way, you're starting to wreck havoc on your rod to stroke ratio...

As far as the bore goes:  Stud spacing for the barrels can be opened up to feasibly, whatever Ducati wanted to open them up to (maybe 120mm would be MAX).  So a *crazy* overbored Duc motor could be possible, but stroke is kinda capped right now...

If it weren't for the timing lay-shaft (you'd need to drive the cams via a different method), stroke could be opened up another 8-10mm (IIRC) so long as the barrels could be further clearanced for the rods and crank and/or that the barrels could be spaced upwards in a reinforced area to provide barrel support and give clearance at the spigot end for the crank and rods....it could be done but you're rapidly approaching cubic-dollars at that point...

Not to mention the clearance between the rod big ends and the transmission gears.
A 1400cc+ motor is certainly possible, if you redesign the whole thing.

The chance of Ducati doing that just to enter a totally new market segment (for them) is vanishingly small IMO.

I saw this thread topic and I immediatly throught:

(http://www.v10.pl/narzedzia/tapety/Samochody/Dodge/Dodge%20Tomahawk/Dodge%20Tomahawk%201024x768_42.jpg)

and said "oh no...."

ATGATT  [thumbsup]

PLEASE FLOUNDERS, CHANGE THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD TO "BULLSHIT STORY ABOUT..ETC ETC" AND LOCK IT.. FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE!

It would take a 78 mm stroke along with the current 106 mm bore (1198) to yield 1375cc. or 1358 at 77.  That's probably doable. you could run one at about 8500 rpm and be a couple hundred lfpm less piston speed than my 998's 63.5 mm stroke at 11000.

I'm just not a cruiser kind of guy, but I'd love to swing a leg over a 1400 cc ducati.  Bet you could pull stumps with one (at about 130 mph). [thumbsup]

LA

No need to yell about it.

If the content bothers you that much, just don't click on it.

i am sensitive

The motor I'm developing is still a work in progress so the exact stroke is still a secret, but if you use your imagination while looking as it, I'm sure you can vizualize a couple more MMs.

Can't wait to see the new project Norm!

I feel all giggly.

time to put the pipe down.

down or in?

too early for that many choices.

Well looks like they let somebody play with the ducati playdoh again....... :-\

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f167/Rufus120/Ducati_Vyrus.jpg)

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/06/is-this-the-ducati-vyrus-perfo.html (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/06/is-this-the-ducati-vyrus-perfo.html)

I saw that too.  The latest reports mentioned that the bike is likely powered by a 1200cc engine. 

This type of bike offends the Ducati purists (and anyone who has ever heard of the Ducati Indiana  ;)) but it's still within the realm of possibliity.

drugs + playdoh = Ducati power cruiser

So... is that supposed to be the 1198 motor in there, reminds me of the old SNL skit for the Adobe "The car made of clay"

Even the name sounds like bs, Vyper?! Cmon, that's weak Italian naming [coffee]

Is this meant to compete for the 'busa market?

Check out the "typo" in the Hell For Leather URL.

Vyrus.

i like it.. hope it does become reality

No.  More like the V-Rod/M109R/V-Max market. 

The 'busa isn't a power cruiser - it's a fully-faired sportbike.

Well it's not just running out of wit. The Japanese make literally everything.

Turns out Duck-Stew is a 'Stroke Expert'
<giggle>

That would make sense here....

Vyrus uses Ducati mtors for their bikes...

Then again so does Bimota

(http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/2010-ducati-vyper.jpg)

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/285/3454/Motorcycle-Article/Euro-Gossip-May-2009.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/285/3454/Motorcycle-Article/Euro-Gossip-May-2009.aspx)

cruisers without forward controls don't count. ;D

That is just wrong, on so many levels.

ok here's the thing. if they can make this bike comfortable for 2-up cruising with attachments.. i may actually like it. with the ST gone, Ducati needs a long distance tourer.

Don't forget a decently sized gas tank  :)

Wow I just don't know how I feel about this.
Might look alot better with drag bars and bar end mirrors.
Also with that rake its going to be alot slower in the corners I would think.

OK so I got rid of the bar risers and that god awful headlight assembly.
Better? maybe, I am still undecided.
probably be cleaner to change out the gauges too.
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk60/visceralreaction/vyper.jpg)

This is one of the worst-looking Photochop pics that I've ever seen.  God help us if Ducati were to build something that butt-ugly.  [puke]

That said, I still think they're going to build a cruiser.   [coffee]

Tank design reminds me of a Blast, and not in any good way.

Hasn't this already been proven to be BS?

MCN did have actual photographs of a new Ducati that appeared to be a ST/Multistrada hybrid to take on the sport touring market.

Ducati making a new tourer?  Nah.

At it's height, the ST simply did not sell well.  How many ST bikes were they moving before they killed it?

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/boardpics/CIMG0921.jpg)

Not too many.  Can't have an entire bike like selling under a thousand worldwide.  Same reason they killed the SS line.  Just was not selling.

Was it styling?  Or was it that people want a Ducati to be a race-like bike and there aren't enough Ducatista who want a tourer anymore?

Perhaps its a bike that once one owns, does not upgrade.

This is certainly not to be said about the superbikes. How many people had a 916 era, got a 999, now a 1098, soon to be replaced with an 1198. That seems fairly common - with superbikes people want the latest and greatest.

With sport tourers, you need only one (or so it seems from the guys I know who have one).

Sure, but if you're the manufacturer, you can't support a world-wide product line with only <800 of them annually.

I think it was too much stiff competition for the ST, coupled with some ST downfalls...namely a DSS making chain/tire maintenance on the road a PIA, dry clutch which the sport tourer crowd doesn't like, price, and 6K mile valve adjustments (probably the most important on a touring machine).

Every review I read called out those items, and said the STs were nice bikes and handled very well, but there were better options available for cheaper (i.e. Triumph Sprint ST).

It's not the race-bike thing...Multistradas sell well (worldwide, if not in the US), and the Monsters are Ducati's bread and butter.

Well as an ST owner I can say I don't need to upgrade. In 05 Ducati addressed most
of the complaints. Bad seat, bad light, dry clutch etc.
It's still a SSS but what can i do. I don't need to upgrade it. The 6K valve adjustments piss me off
because it is a make the beast with two backsing HUGE PITA to take the bike completely apart to get at the freaking valve covers.
I am talking all the freaking body work, battery, batter box, radiator, oil cooler. ugh.
But is it fun to ride? Sure as hell. I can rip up the canyons like anyone. Do I need to upgrade it?
Nah it's fun in the canyons and tours two up really comfy. So from 04 to 05 they changed the light and
seat and went from dry to wet clutch. why upgrade just for that? I think the above thought is
correct that ST riders are not the "upgrade to the latest and greatest" hence the downfall of a really
great bike.

Yup-and I keep maintaining short valve adjustment intervals have no place on a touring bike. You would think I'd be a prime candidate-sold my monster, liked the duc, wasn't comfy. They make a comfier duc that handles, and I want nothing to do with it. I would hate the valve adjustments. Even at the 7500 interval I'd still do at least two a year. I'll pass.

Watch out on your GS then...6K mile intervals.

They're super easy to access and adjust though.  [thumbsup]

Yeah but it'd take like 45 minutes with no tools, drunk at night. The valves are right there  :)

Japanese don't make apologies.

I just put this up in another thread, but there is a quote worth throwing in both this and the scooter thread.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/07/ducati-talks-strada-aperta-cru.html (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/07/ducati-talks-strada-aperta-cru.html)

Diego Sgorbati, Ducati vice president of marketing in an interview with an Italian magazine.

"Ducati is looking at many segments, scooters, custom, enduro, off-road...it's a normal expansion," says Sgorbati. "Before going down one road though we look at all the potential barriers, technological and distribution related. For example, how many of our dealers can sell a superbike, as well as a motocross bike? Also, does it match the 'soul' of the brand, does it make sense? What worked 20 years ago might not make sense today. [The Ducati Vyper cruiser] in any kind of near future, yes, it's out. Maybe in 4-5 years we would look at the custom market to as well as other segments to see where we could expand."

So maybe this whole cruiser thing is going to happen......

Edit- Here is another interview that makes it sound like the cruiser is much further out

Sgorbati confirms that for the moment the Ducati Custom Cruiser is excluded from product development plans, though they’re keeping an eye on the market to see if custom models would be attractive enough to lure Ducati into segments not typically theirs. Apart from the technological and logistical challenges associated with new models and new segments, Sgorbati says: “We need to understand the spirit of the product, how much it’s in sync with the brand.”

You can read the rest of that one here:
http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/2640/interview-ducati-models-at-eicma-2009#continua (http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/2640/interview-ducati-models-at-eicma-2009#continua)

I guess one has to have had experience with Mediterraneans to understand this is just a guy chatting about his employer.  Ducati will not make a cruiser along the lines of the "Vyper."  Oberdan Bezzi has drawn hundreds of bikes and put names on them, but they are rarely produced by the manufacturers.

I can see this guy sitting at a cafe in a Bolognese piazza drinking a macchiato and bullshitting with the interviewer.. "si .. cruiser.. helicopter.. qualunque volete!... "

It sounds to me like the typical Med style of talking.  Its dead.  It would be sneered at by the cruiser crowd and the Ducati faithful don't want cruisers.

They didn't want Sport Tourers either, which is why the ST was killed.

i think the sport tourer had issues that's why it was killed. it was a bloated bike. 470 lbs plus. yet had the same motors. and it was big. ducati should be small and light. now if they made a small light tourer that handled like a SBK... but instead they are making this oversized, big motor expensive tourer, that looks like another 450 plus pound bike.

Yeah...but we are all getting older and it seems people want more comfort and the K series from BMW is selling great.
You got the latest MO, right ?
Doing 900 km a day on a ZZR might be hardcore, buts its doable it seems  [thumbsup]
I found myself riding through half of Europe and doing straight roads more than twisty ones.
If I would get another bike, it should be a sports tourer.
But I give it another two to three years.
And then I want to buy my 1200cc traction controlled, ABS, grip and seat heated ST5, are you listening Ducati ?  [beer]

I think Ducati is more likely to make another ST than a cruiser.  However, they are pretty much limited by their manufacturing capability which is why the ST shared a frame, forks, wheels, and engine with their other bikes.  They can't build a wholly different bike, they are too small.

You can assemble an ST (except for the ST3 which had the 'tre heads)  from parts collected off other bikes pretty easily except for the fairings. 

Well, expensive is their new business model...focus on high end bikes with more profit in them. It will have a big motor for sure...but I seriously doubt it will be oversized or heavy. They've been trending towards lighter bikes for some time now.

I sense the influence of Ducati newest dealer- Orange County Choppers.  :P

And that, kids, is THE reason I just keep shying away from buying another Duc in general, especially since I want 4-valve twin powah. Overly complicated and frequent service is BS, takes away from valuable riding time.

As soon as they realize that valve spring metallurgy has made incredible progress and put in timing chains I'm back.

I seriously doubt that "Desmo Ducati" will being using spring valves in their bikes any time soon.  Valve chains could be done at home.

I did my Duc's timing belts at home too, but thought it was nonsense. Belts are slightly more efficient than chains, but come on....

I meant you could convert the cam drive to chains pretty easily.. just very messy...

If you are going to that much trouble, you might as well do gears and be done with it  ;D

mitt

Really?

Do tell.

 [popcorn]

use a drive chain from a GTL, gears have to be fabricated.. sprocket specialists will do it.  use a scottoiler to keep it lubed. 

* the farce is strong in this one

Sounds messy.  ;) Would probably result in more oil on my garage floor than my M900 leaked in its original configuration.

Might be a little, the problem with using chains to drive the cams on a Ducati engine is that the cam drive pulleys are external.  Chains have to be lubed somehow, esp a high-rpm chain like the cam.

The GTL has chain drive cam but it's internal to the engine and lubed by the engine oil. 

It could be done, but I'd want a funky-exotic chain with impregnated lube and probably some high-tech coating on the chain link pieces -- making it cost a mint.

Gears would be harder as you'd have to have a line of gears going between the drive and the cam shaft AND they would have to link up perfectly for the cam to spin correctly.  Ducati's D16 engine uses gears but it was CAD designed, I imagine it would be a pregnant dog to retrofit that to a Desmodue engine.

What about Bevel Gears? [cheeky]

Y'know.....

(http://www.supershowevents.com/collection/moj4pics/moj4-ducati-1.gif)

they work fine, except there is not any easy way to plug them into a desmodue.  the question was about converting a current-model 2V engine to run chain cam drive instead of belts.

Gears are horrendously expensive, that's why there aren't a lot of bikes with 'em.

Chains are fine.
They're heavier than belts.
For a Duc conversion, it would be possible to make a separate oil-tight case assembly.
It'd be a huge piece for the back of the case, and would have to be made as one piece to maintain oil tightness.
The outer cover would be a problem, as it'd be impossible to remove as a one piece, and difficult to seal if it was a multi piece.

Have to find a set of tensioners and chain guide plates that'd work.
Maybe get lucky finding ones from another motor, that would cool.
The typical chain guide for cam chains is a hard rubber surface molded around a steel core.
IMO, that wouldn't be a problem for a manufacturer, but custom ones, yeah, a problem.

Biggest functional benefit is it can be a bit narrower.
That's an issue for an I-4 engine, on a L-twin, not much benefit.

Nice thing about belts, is you get the ability to have fins behind them, so the cylinder gets some cooling.
I'm not aware of an air-cooled engine that runs a seperate case for a chain drive.
So in the usual application, there's hot oil running down the head and cylinder wall.

I bet you could make one with a two-piece assembly, split vertically, sort of how the belt covers work.  Mount the rear piece onto the head.  Bottom bit would have to be a separate piece too. They work wonders with PVC and composites these days.  Lube could be a small bit off the case with a drip return into the sump.  I am talking off the top of my head.

tensioner would have to be integral to the rear cover piece, so cover would have to have a metal spine.  Plenty of AK47 magazines made like this, with a steel ring spine and composite body -- very tough (dare I say "bulletproof?"). 

Seal would be very critical. 

I would be impressed, but I wouldnt' want to do it...

ah, steel spine and composite body. the tough composites you speak of must be the not so cheap kvar!

i thought kvar just resold the bulgarian milsurp, but i may be wrong.  my experience is with the bulgarian "waffle" type.  they are pretty hardy.

(same thing - bulgarian high quality stuff)

used to be Tromix would mod them for Valmets.  I have a clutch of 5.56 Valmets and they are superior to the factory Valmet mag.  I think Tony got in trouble with the alphabet boys for modding them, but I can't be sure, he won't do it anymore and won't say why.  I'd get the mags for $20 and send off a dozen or so to him and he'd cut them for $10 each...  >sigh< that's when i could get Wolf 7.62x39 for $60/case from Tapco.

this thread has jumped the shark. 

Ducati will not make a cruiser.  EOL

isnt that the engine for stu's cafe racer rebuild?   ;D

mmmm push rods

Dems ain't pushrods, those tubes are for the bevel drive for the overhead cams.

yep spinning shafts . wonder how different materials would have made them more efficient and reliable then belts.

That's just a generic bevel drive Ducati. It uses bevel gears to turn the cams rather than belts. Its your "gear" drive.

Bevel Gears:
(http://www.elizabethtown.kctcs.edu/members/jnail/BRX-Gears_files/image004.jpg)

Twist Rods?   [laugh]

the material wasn't the issue, it was the complexity of the build.  I forget how many shims are involved in that setup, but it is maddening.  you shim one clearance correctly, then ahve to go back and re-shim the others.  madness, i tell you.  not fun.

Valve spring technology aint moved on much cos in moto gp i think they all abandoned them.
yamaha definately have  dunno about Honda think theirv valbes ar pneumatic

good point and Ford is working on electrically operated valves -- no camshaft.