by my landlord for my cabinet shop rent. Court date is tomorrow.
Paid rent on time, every time since I took over the space. Ever since fall of 2007 the roof has leaked. Three different roofers were called by the property manager over the course of 2008. Each one came out more than once. Nine visits total.
Made a New Years resolution....2009 is the year that Rogie doesnt take shit. Havent paid rent since January. Needless to say, that got their attention. New property manager called her roofer to fix my multiple leaks. Supposedly fixed but un-tested in a real rain. Drywall and ceiling tiles are "ironically" going to be fixed tomorrow.
I don't want to build out my showroom/display space until the roof is water tight, but how can I effectively sell my very tactile product without them?
Any suggestions?
Quote from: rgramjet on March 24, 2009, 05:02:24 PM
Any suggestions?
not to be flippant, but yes, get an attorney sooner than the day before court.
Did you put the rent money into a separate account with a letter saying the money was in escrow pending the fixing of their breach of contract concerning the usability of the space by chance?
Quote from: Statler on March 24, 2009, 05:05:46 PM
not to be flippant, but yes, get an attorney sooner than the day before court.
Did you put the rent money into a separate account with a letter saying the money was in escrow pending the fixing of their breach of contract concerning the usability of the space by chance?
lol Noted.
Ive consulted with an attorney as well as a friend thats a commercial realtor. Im going to wing it. Sucks that the owner would sooner sue me than have a conversation about what the problem is and how we can resolve it. Owner is a real estate attorney, should be interesting.
Quote from: rgramjet on March 24, 2009, 05:15:25 PM
Owner is a real estate attorney, should be interesting.
and you knew this going in?
I did, should I be scared?
well, before you decided to do this, you should have spoke with a attorney.
they probably would have advised against it, at least any attorney I've ever used would have. ;)
your only chance is if you have products that were damaged and didn't receive a refund for your loss.
Quote from: rgramjet on March 24, 2009, 05:02:24 PM
Any suggestions?
oh yeah...don't get legal advice off a motorcycle forum.
I spoke with my attorney. My lease clearly states that its the landlords responsibility to keep the roof "water tight". He didnt, he broke the lease. In this market, the building will stand empty if I leave.
I paid rent for over a year for an area that could not be used. The property manager even suggested I request a rent waiver and/or reduced rent. Guess we will see...
Quote from: Statler on March 24, 2009, 05:44:08 PM
oh yeah...don't get legal advice off a motorcycle forum.
LMAO!!!!
Best suggestion so far!
so....do you have all the back rent in an account you can show the court? so you can write a check tomorrow for the full amount?
do you have documents showing you have told the owner about the roof and that it impacts your use of the space?
you ducked that question.
Quote from: rgramjet on March 24, 2009, 05:24:18 PM
I did, should I be scared?
very.....
money in escrow or a cashiers check in hand @ court in the absence of a lawyer is your best bet...I'm no lawyer..but my wife is...and she laughed that evil lawyer laugh when I read this to her...I suspect that you are breakfast or lunch for a real estate atty tomorrow...
show willingness to pay...they are going to argue that they made reasonable effort to remedy the situation with receipts in hand...where does that leave you?
if you are VERY LUCKY and you have the funds in hand or evidenced in an account the judge MAY suggest you mediate a solution....which is probably what is going to happen..........worst case you are going to get slammed for the rent ...late and admins fees...as well as atty fees...
check you lease because it SHOULD have an arbitration clause which woul;d render the court date a breach of the contract on the plaintiffs behalf
I've not had a law class in a very long time, but I always thought it was better to document the lack of repairs and the results, then if you need to have them performed yourself, you deduct that money from your rent, with it all thoroughly documented. Simply withholding rent is generally a bad idea. Walking into court with the money available would be a good thing tomorrow I would think.
Nope and yup.
I have notes and invoices that show each time the roofers showed up and what they attempted to repair. The most poignant invoice I have says he made a "temporary patch" and the "replacement of coping is necessary to stop leaks". When I spoke with him today, he said he remembered the coping and stated that it is unfixable. Needs to be replaced. Invoice was from August 15, 2008. I went on the roof today and took tons of pictures of the rusty old coping with split, but caulked seams.
Owner was trying to throw as little $$ as possible to maintain the building=slumlord.
and speaking of attorneys fees.....the likely clause that you owe their attorneys fees can hurt. I have seen some courts not award those for attorneys who represent themselves so if it heads that way it's worth arguing he or she has no attorney expenses since they didn't hire anyone. better than getting hit for contractual obligation to pay him/her a couple hundred per hour to sue you.
Quote from: C230drvr on March 24, 2009, 05:55:20 PM
very.....
money in escrow or a cashiers check in hand @ court in the absence of a lawyer is your best bet...I'm no lawyer..but my wife is...and she laughed that evil lawyer laugh when I read this to her...I suspect that you are breakfast or lunch for a real estate atty tomorrow...
show willingness to pay...they are going to argue that they made reasonable effort to remedy the situation with receipts in hand...where does that leave you?
if you are VERY LUCKY and you have the funds in hand or evidenced in an account the judge MAY suggest you mediate a solution....which is probably what is going to happen..........worst case you are going to get slammed for the rent ...late and admins fees...as well as atty fees...
check you lease because it SHOULD have an arbitration clause which woul;d render the court date a breach of the contract on the plaintiffs behalf
Im hoping that the judge will see that Im just a working Joe, business has sucked and Im just trying to stand up for whats right. The way I see it is I paid them for a "whole" space, not 2/3 of a space. Is over a year not a realistic amount of time to properly fix a roof?
I know you're local, but the folks I would use are in a two day trial starting tomorrow so no help there.
Good luck.
Let us know how it goes.
Maybe you'll do great and kick ass.
might be time to start looking for other places regardless.
Quote from: C230drvr on March 24, 2009, 05:55:20 PM
check you lease because it SHOULD have an arbitration clause which woul;d render the court date a breach of the contract on the plaintiffs behalf
I hope for you this is the case. It still sucks the guy is quick to sue when this SHOULD have been able to be solved by a conversation...
Quote from: Statler on March 24, 2009, 06:04:19 PM
I know you're local, but the folks I would use are in a two day trial starting tomorrow so no help there.
Good luck.
Let us know how it goes.
Maybe you'll do great and kick ass.
might be time to start looking for other places regardless.
Senor, thanks for the well wishes! Ive already got a list of alternative spaces if the landlord wants to go that route. Couple places offering 3 months free right off the bat.
Nakid, I couldnt agree more!
There is a Casualty Damage Clause in my lease, it states:"....rent shall be abated proportionally as to the portion of the premises rendered untenantable for the period until such repairs are completed."
main thing is don't go to court with the expectation of arguing common sense. This is about contractual obligation (your lease) all emotion and intention aside, you have to argue on factual basis. the fact that a roofer showed up....goes to reasonable effort to remedy the situation on your landlords begalf...they don't have to have it fixed...being in the process of 'fixing' it may well be sufficient. just have realistic expectation ...don't try to argue ..anbd stress to the judge that you don't wish to withhold rent...and your preference would have been and still is to remedy the situation without the court's intervention...all that and have the funds available to pay.
I'd never go to court without an attorney, but that's just me.
especially when you are representing yourself against an attorney.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 24, 2009, 06:58:38 PM
rule #1 I'd never go to court without an attorney, but that's just me.
rule #2 especially when you are representing yourself against an attorney.
rule #3 never discuss legal stuff on a public forum...
,..course, thats just my opinion [roll]
Quote from: herm on March 24, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
rule #3 never discuss legal stuff on a public forum...
,..course, thats just my opinion [roll]
Wow, Herm and I agree on something........
must be the Valium, jack and coke, and beers................
Thanks guys. Wish me luck!
Good luck...
Bring a toothbrush...
just in case you decide to tell his/her honor what you really think. ;)
I'd find an attorney in the courthouse and throw him 200$ before you go in.
My bro was a prosecutor for 5 years and saw a shit ton of people attempt to represent themselves.
They never got a fair deal.
Judges respect those who have legal counsel. It is part of the game.
Maybe it is all relative to location, but the court system he worked in was like that.
Walk in without an attorney.........make the beast with two backsed.
QUICKLY go to hollywood video and check out all the episodes of LA LAW, Allie McBeal and Law and Order!
(in short, good luck!)
Quote from: redxblack on March 24, 2009, 07:38:02 PM
QUICKLY go to hollywood video and check out all the episodes of LA LAW, Allie McBeal and Law and Order!
(in short, good luck!)
Better yet..hire the new DDA from Law and Order and everything will go great:
(http://www.nbc.com/Law_and_Order/images/bios/alana_lrg.jpg)
I wish you good luck in your case.
From the Law courses I studied in College , I seem to remember a Contract in it's basic concept says that each party will receive a consideration that equates to what the other party receives in return.
Dolph :)
Quote from: rgramjet on March 24, 2009, 06:02:47 PM
Is over a year not a realistic amount of time to properly fix a roof?
Is it a flat roof?
My opinion of flat roofed buildings is that they will never be waterproof indefinitely. They always leak. Always.
Remember, the law has nothing to do with common sense or what is "right."
good luck.
My mom works with a lot of judges and I've been in front of most of them......but dress nicely and be respectable. They have to deal with this shit all day so the easier you are to deal then hopefully the better it goes, not saying you are screwed or anything I just try to prepare for the worst because I usually have to deal with the worst.
And if the guy is a total d bag about everything just flood the place and tell him it was the roof.
FIGHT THE POWER [flavaflav]
From the sounds of it, you could have done a little more groundwork before you ended up in court, but I hope they see things your way. I think there are times when consequences be damned, you do what you gotta do. I hope you get satisfaction out of it, one way or another. Hopefully both ways. [thumbsup]
Good luck dude, I have same issues with my landlord [bang]
SO . . . Wh'appened?
Quote from: il d00d on March 24, 2009, 11:14:28 PM
FIGHT THE POWER [flavaflav]
From the sounds of it, you could have done a little more groundwork before you ended up in court, but I hope they see things your way. I think there are times when consequences be damned, you do what you gotta do. I hope you get satisfaction out of it, one way or another. Hopefully both ways. [thumbsup]
FIGHT THE POWER [flavaflav] Thats my mantra.
I was actually loaded for bear.....had tons of photos, talked all the roofers into faxing me copys of the invoices detailing the work done, talked the ex property manager into forwarding me every date that work was done on the place. I know this shows they were "trying to repair the roof" but, not when the invoice states "Temporary Patch, coping must be replaced to prevent water from entering the building". I went up on the roof yesterday and all I saw was some rusty ass coping with some tar slathered on it.
I approached the LL's attorney before being called up, explained that I had been speaking with the property manager about a settlement and that the landlord "valued my tenancy". He looked at me with skeptical eyes then I showed him the email with the exact wording. He said he would be happy to postpone for a week so I can negotiate with the landlord. Suggested that I contact him directly.
My case came up early but I stuck around for an hour and a half just to study the goings on.....also there was a hot chick sitting next to me (Hooters employee behind in her rent) practically hyperventilating because she was so nervous.....I felt it my duty to provide her moral support...the judge kept interrupting my rap
(as if I had one) [evil] It was a good day.
Good luck. There should be no reason why the two of you can't work it out without going to court. And if you do come to an agreement make sure it's in writing.
Quote from: pintsizejesus on March 24, 2009, 10:36:07 PM
And if the guy is a total d bag about everything just flood the place and tell him it was the roof.
Not good advice. ;)
Quote from: herm on March 24, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
rule #3 never discuss legal stuff on a public forum...
,..course, thats just my opinion [roll]
rule #4 never admit to tax evasion on a public forum.
Quote from: Privateer on March 24, 2009, 07:53:34 PM
Is it a flat roof?
My opinion of flat roofed buildings is that they will never be waterproof indefinitely. They always leak. Always.
Remember, the law has nothing to do with common sense or what is "right."
good luck.
Precisely! Its not a matter of
if they will leak, more like
when they'll leak...
Quote from: redxblack on March 24, 2009, 07:38:02 PM
QUICKLY go to hollywood video and check out all the episodes of LA LAW, Allie McBeal and Law and Order!
(in short, good luck!)
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: rgramjet on March 25, 2009, 04:36:24 PM
Precisely! Its not a matter of if they will leak, more like when they'll leak...
If done correctly flat roofs will not leak and will last 30 years (depending on the roofing membrane.) The difficulty is finding a competent roofer that understands flat roofs.
Quote from: red duke on March 25, 2009, 05:36:29 PM
If done correctly flat roofs will not leak and will last 30 years (depending on the roofing membrane.) The difficulty is finding a competent roofer that understands flat roofs.
If done correctly with standard roofing membranes you can expect to receive a 10 year manufacturers warranty and a 5 year workmanship warranty. For super high cost membranes (PVC) you can buy a 15 or 20 year manufacturers warranty.
What does this mean? It means flat roofs leak. A new flat roof will last 10-15 years max before it needs some type of repair and only if properly maintained during that period of time. Which means constant removal of debris, cutback of nearby trees, and upkeep of roof drainage systems. Flat roofs do "last" 30 years but they are usually repaired every other year for the last 10-15 years of that lifespan.
I know a really good roofer in Florida who does flat roofs well.
Sounds like a judge did something sbrguy didn't like.
In the last 11 years I have found the exact opposite with judges, with the ratio of asshole to concerned and overly patient and polite to be vastly smaller than in the average profession. Most people see them only for one case involving themselves and hear things rather.... differently. it's amazing to watch a recording of a hearing after a party describes what the Court was like.
So...update on what happened? (edit...der...should have read up a couple more posts)
Sounds like SBRguy just has a problem with anyone that has accomplished anything in life. First the total disrespect of four dead cops and now this? My bro in law is a Judge. I deal with Judges all the time at work. SBRguy has no clue what he's posting about.
Lighten up, everyone.
Personal attacks=bad
posting general opinions even if it makes you unpopular=just unpolular
I had an entire posting ready to post in response to Hblaim and Statler.
all i will say is this, i have never had any problems with any Judges anywhere.
Also Hblaim should re-read the rules on LEO talk on the board, i interpret them very very very strictly (there is no more politics board), and as such follow the rules when it comes to that topic, others do not. If you want to view my reading of the rules as "disrespect" to 4 dead cops, then you have not read the rules at all and are totally disregarding them because "you want to"
ok. tried to put some humor into the nasty post about judges to bring this one around. didn't work.
sbrguy, I thought the cop thing had been addressed and the folks who wrote the rules for the forum told you that you were wrong and that your post there was completely inappropriate. Any further discussion of that should be by PM.
rgramjet, please let me know if you'd like to continue this thread let me know and I'll happily unlock it for your posting the outcome. for now it's locked to prevent the inevitable pissing match.
Went back and forth with property manager/landlord. I needed 4 months rent to offset my inability to build out my space due to the leaking roof.
They offered 2. We settled on 3. Plus they replaced all the damaged ceiling tiles and replaced the water damaged drywall.
[bacon]
i wish you'd have called me or i had seen this before, i would have loved to have shown up for you on this, and i happen to be barred in MD too..
however, it sounds like you got a good outcome, and i think a happier one for everyone involved.. i am sure the LL is happy with no or less atty fees.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on March 31, 2009, 06:06:20 AM
i wish you'd have called me or i had seen this before, i would have loved to have shown up for you on this, and i happen to be barred in MD too..
however, it sounds like you got a good outcome, and i think a happier one for everyone involved.. i am sure the LL is happy with no or less atty fees.
Im saving that favor for when they try to give me the chair! Thanks though! [thumbsup] It was a great learning experience.
Quote from: rgramjet on March 31, 2009, 06:36:27 AM
Im saving that favor for when they try to give me the chair! Thanks though! [thumbsup] It was a great learning experience.
oh f that, i don't do criminal cases.. but a rent dispute? that's like jerking off..
but the advice about an escrow account if you have a dispute is priceless. in MOST places with a reasonable issue in a dispute, the tenant will almost always win if they show they have an escrow set up for the rent.
had a friend in nyc with a dispute, this was a somewhat leaky radiator. no big deal, it worked ok in winter, but leaked about half a gallon/month. not much. landlord kept delaying on it. technically, i wouldn't even think this was enough water to matter -- it would probably evaporate.
anyhow, friend stopped paying rent and set up an escrow -- and sent notice to the LL. after 3 months, got a notice she was being sued and evicted "per the lease".. she had a 2 year lease with 14 months left, big pain. she went to court with the photos, the escrow, and copies of the letter. judge awarded her the back rent (she didn't have to pay it) and ordered the LL to repair and that she would not have to pay rent until it was repaired and that she could not be evicted for this.. AND he left the case open until the end of her lease.. which means he could have put further penalties on the LL if he didn't comply without a further case being filed. her rent was 2 grand, so it was a nice windfall.
LL got the radiator fixed that week.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on March 31, 2009, 06:38:38 AM
oh f that, i don't do criminal cases.. but a rent dispute? that's like jerking off..
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Dude you would have owned that courtroom....