Over the winter I changed my rear spring to an eibach 650 weight and I brought my bike in today to get my suspension set up. I weigh 195 sans gear and the bike has almost 18k on it. The bike is a 2001 900sie so it has the adjustable front showas.
The rear is perfect but now the front is "way off" according the the shop. The sag is at 50mm. They said this could just be due to the light stock springs or worn out springs.
*Does this sound right?
They gave my options as
a) replace springs and oil (2 hours labor + springs) shocks stay on the bike. cost; around 300
b) replace springs and oil with complete rebuild of shocks. cost; around 500
he did mention that the bushings could be worn out but there is no way to know if they need replacing until they are completely off the bike. He also mentioned that at 18k ducati does suggest doing option b.
*Has anyone had any problems with their bushings or shocks in general at this mileage? Do I need to go with option B?
The springs he said would go in is this. 37 dia/ 320 length/ .90 weight.
*Are these the proper springs?
Anyone that can weigh in on this would be appreciated.
What model forks?
Non adjustable Showas? Marzocchis are not 'rebuildable' per se. All you can do is oil and springs.
The springs they are suggesting sound right. I weigh 175-180 and use a .85.
If they're going to put valves, springs, and oil for $500...go for it. If they're just gonna take them apart and replace bushings for the extra money then try the springs and oil first IMO.
The experts (not me) will need bike and year.
I went the option b route this winter. My S2R 800 with the sub-sub-sub standard forks was dangerous to ride, there was no rebound and I regularly bottomed out. For about your price (in Norway, if you're in the US it "should" be cheaper) I got new springs, oil and customized valves. My bike is not a better, it's a new bike - so everyone tells me - haven't been on it yet.
From what I hear - it's very important that the front matches the rear. If your bike has some miles on it as well - you're probably up for option b
I'm the same wight (195lbs) and I just bought front and rear myself. The stock springs are rated for little Italian men. I have a 600lbs Ohlins rear spring and the exact same front springs (rate wise). I still haven't decided on the weight and quantity of oil to use. I'm thinking of using the stock amount (not that I know it yet) and either 7.5 or 10 weight oil.
I decided not to go after the valves right now. If I am not satisfied with the ride, there will always be next winter for me to take the bike apart again.
I just bought a set of adjustable showa forks. (they were dirt cheap) and I am hoping hat I can still use the same springs. I'm having a hard time figuring out if there is a difference. I haven't pulled them open yet, but the outside dimensions are the same. Racetech didn't seem to sell 2 different kinds. We shall see.
I say you should do the front. I don't have any FHE (yet!) but I have done a bunch of research. (sounds like you have to) and it all says to do it. [thumbsup]
I meant to put the model and year in there. I forgot that I dont have it on my profile like on the old forum. (Info added above)
Well so far it seems everyone is leaning toward b. Ill be honest, one of the main issues is that I dont want to drop 500 bucks for not much difference in my ride performance. I am not exactly pushing it hard on the track. Just the typical street riding.
Thanks for posting that info. I think you may have just confirmed that my springs will work on my new forks. [thumbsup]
I forgot to mention. Taking the forks off yourself is a trivial matter and can be done with basic tools in 30 mins. If you take the forks in to the shop off the bike it may knock off about $100. Depends on your mechanic. If I were you and worried about the price. I would pop off the forks and replace the springs and oil and be done with it. It would probably cost around $200.... but the problem with matching the rear, and the excessive sag would be gone. Then I would ride the piss outta the thing and decide If I wanted to do more later.
gimpy,
yo sort of beat me to it. I was about to ask you a question since you do all your own work.
I was wondering how easy it would be to do myself. (I think I recall reading the "how to" on this and thinking it was a cake walk. The problem I see with taking the shocks off myself is that I have no way to support the bike.
I was thinking I could easily do the springs myself by just popping them out, sucking out the oil (somehow, turkey baster ???) and then just replace. Then all I would need was to is go back to the shop to have the front adjusted properly. (hopefully they would not charge me another $50 bucks since I essentially only paid for half a suspension set up on this go around)
Quote from: bschur13 on March 28, 2009, 01:46:50 PM
I meant to put the model and year in there. I forgot that I dont have it on my profile like on the old forum. (Info added above)
Well so far it seems everyone is leaning toward b. Ill be honest, one of the main issues is that I dont want to drop 500 bucks for not much difference in my ride performance. I am not exactly pushing it hard on the track. Just the typical street riding.
Street or track, the upgrade is worth it.
I would suggest you don't let them use the recommended race-tech stack though.
It will be harsh.
When ducvet did my forks he modified the stack so only the largest bumps are even felt.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 28, 2009, 02:32:57 PM
Street or track, the upgrade is worth it.
I would suggest you don't let them use the recommended race-tech stack though.
It will be harsh.
When ducvet did my forks he modified the stack so only the largest bumps are even felt.
DP - where did you notice the difference most in fork suspension setup?; ie - cornering; bumps; firmer handling; more percise etc ... I'm beginning to realise the stock forks on monsters are not so great ...
Quote from: DuciD03 on March 29, 2009, 03:39:32 PM
DP - where did you notice the difference most in fork suspension setup?; ie - cornering; bumps; firmer handling; more percise etc ... I'm beginning to realise the stock forks on monsters are not so great ...
Everywhere... ;) Seriously.
I figured out the suspension on the monster was 'less than ideal' ( read as sucks ass) when I made a mid corner throttle adjustment and the bike felt like I was riding a snake.
I was lucky to have mine done by a shop that had figured out that the stock race-tech stack wasn't ideal for NH roads. The stock stack is best on the track.
If you have Marzocchi forks, oil and the correct spring will help immensely and there are other options for those as well.
I can't recommend ducvets (clubhousemotorsports) suspension talents highly enough...he was the tech at that shop. He has a notebook that people have threatened him to try and look at. ;D
He's a sponsor here now...and he's a really good friend. I have no problem saying that up front.
Pony up and have it done at the shop of your choice. You won't be disappointed.
P.S. Don't forget to have the sag checked and corrected in the rear. It's all a balance.
Ducvet did my forks too. Does the bike ride better when slowly cruising through the 'hood? Nah. Competence? Now, that is a whole other story. Much more stable and neutral in a lean and much better braking on bumpy surfaces.
Any info on modifying the stock stack or is that a secret that goes to the grave?
Quote from: mookieo2 on March 29, 2009, 04:11:10 PM
Any info on modifying the stock stack or is that a secret that goes to the grave?
No...and yes.
I don't have any, and he won't tell. ;)
Quote from: howie on March 29, 2009, 04:08:49 PM
Ducvet did my forks too. Does the bike ride better when slowly cruising through the 'hood? Nah. Competence? Now, that is a whole other story. Much more stable and neutral in a lean and much better braking on bumpy surfaces.
MY 'hood' is different than howies....
but around here I've experienced a smoother ride.
I did say "slowly cruising". 20-30 MPH too fast on the Bronx River, more composed. A little like the difference between a Buick and a BMW.
Quote from: howie on March 29, 2009, 04:08:49 PM
Ducvet did my forks too.
Mine too! Don't have them back together yet though but his customer service is top notch
ok so if I want the best I have to shell out 5 bills (really not liking that option) but from what I am reading here, just putting in new springs should make quite a change being that I am on a crappy stock set up as it is.
so if I have the adjustable showas, what brand replacements do you all recommended? And how bout oil?
Quote from: bschur13 on March 29, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
ok so if I want the best I have to shell out 5 bills (really not liking that option) but from what I am reading here, just putting in new springs should make quite a change being that I am on a crappy stock set up as it is.
so if I have the adjustable showas, what brand replacements do you all recommended?
Race-tech worked for me.
YMMV
Watch e-bay too. I picked up a new-in-box kit from Hyperpro with front and rear springs and oil. Granted I have Marzoochi's and that's about all I could do cheaply. I was out about $95 shipped. Made a HUGE difference ~
JM
Ok so now I got more questions.
I have been thinking it over and for 300 he said they were going to replace my springs and oil. (w/o removing the forks)
For 500 he was going to remove them and replace whatever needed replacing.
Like I said before, I dont want to spend 500, hell I dont even want to spend the 300 but if I am going to shell out the money I might as well step up the extra 200 and do the entire thing. (all prices were including the springs but no other parts)
*What should I be getting for 500?
Remember that my mileage is nearly 18k and that I have no idea about shocks.
*Once they are apart I assume it is best to put in all new stuff (bushings and what not)?
*What parts would I need to order?
Quote from: bschur13 on March 30, 2009, 12:58:04 PM
Ok so now I got more questions.
I have been thinking it over and for 300 he said they were going to replace my springs and oil. (w/o removing the forks)
For 500 he was going to remove them and replace whatever needed replacing.
Like I said before, I dont want to spend 500, hell I dont even want to spend the 300 but if I am going to shell out the money I might as well step up the extra 200 and do the entire thing. (all prices were including the springs but no other parts)
*What should I be getting for 500?
Remember that my mileage is nearly 18k and that I have no idea about shocks.
*Once they are apart I assume it is best to put in all new stuff (bushings and what not)?
*What parts would I need to order?
If the "he" you are talking about is ducvet, besides the gold valves, shim packs and additional labor an incredible wealth of knowledge of proper fork tuning for
your needs.
this ducvet guy sound like a legend ;D
The "he" I was referring to was just the plain old dude at the local racing shop I went to.
Quote from: bschur13 on March 30, 2009, 03:03:54 PM
this ducvet guy sound like a legend ;D
The "he" I was referring to was just the plain old dude at the local racing shop I went to.
Legend...
Nah...
He just knows his shit.
I think some followers of this post may have missed this one I put up so Ill derby and I had a new ? as well.
I have been thinking it over and for 300 he said they were going to replace my springs and oil. (w/o removing the forks)
For 500 he was going to remove them and replace whatever needed replacing.
Like I said before, I dont want to spend 500, hell I dont even want to spend the 300 but if I am going to shell out the money I might as well step up the extra 200 and do the entire thing. (all prices were including the springs but no other parts)
*What should I be getting for 500?
Remember that my mileage is nearly 18k and that I have no idea about shocks.
*Once they are apart I assume it is best to put in all new stuff (bushings and what not)?
*What parts would I need to order?
*Are gold valves necessary because they seem very costly as far as parts go for the internals? Will they make a huge difference?
My main issue with my Marzocchis was the total lack of rebound - once compressed, they would come jumping back up.
The suspension guru I chose managed to supply good rebound dampening with the stock valves - how he did it is his trade secret.
"Secret" + oil + springs = ~within your option A.
You may be able to tell if the bushings are wearing. Remove the front wheel and grab the lower fork leg and pull back and forth. If you feel slop between the upper and lower leg or hear clicking the bushings are worn. If you need bushings it's a little involved and takes some special tools.
Here is a nice video of a cartridge fork rebuild, should give you an idea of what you are in for:
Change motorcycle fork seals part 1 (of 2) cartridge type (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y43k1qFVGW4#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
As for supporting the bike, a rear stand and something solid to prop under the front cylinder will support the bike well enough to get the front wheel off the ground and let you remove the fork legs. Taking the legs off is pretty easy.
Springs and oil should run around $150 total for parts and should make a big difference. The Marzocchis aren't great but any fork sucks with the wrong springs and damping/oil for the rider. Some Marzocchis have one leg doing rebound damping and the other does compression. If you have this set up you can tune rebound and compression separately with different oil in each leg. Others, like mine, have both legs doing both. You can change the oil weight for more or less damping on both but can't tune compression and rebound separately.
If they're not taking the forks off the bike they can't really change all the oil, you need to turn the fork leg upside down to drain it or at least unscrew the cartridge from the bottom. I'd say they're probably just planning to suck out what oil they can from the top and replace it.
If can get the bike propped up removing the forks and changing the oil and springs is fairly easy and well worth it for around $150. $300 seems a pretty fair price if they drain all the oil, change the springs, and set the sag for you. If your bushings are shot you need a rebuild, plain and simple.
Scott
Quote from: bschur13 on March 31, 2009, 05:57:32 PM
*What should I be getting for 500?
Remember that my mileage is nearly 18k and that I have no idea about shocks.
*Once they are apart I assume it is best to put in all new stuff (bushings and what not)?
*What parts would I need to order?
The above questions should be discussed with the shop doing the work. Shops who routinely do this work do stock bushings and seals. Labor rates change geographically. Labor rates in an area like NYC can be over $100 an hour. In rural areas labor rates can be as low as $55 an hour.
*Are gold valves necessary because they seem very costly as far as parts go for the internals? Will they make a huge difference?
No, they are not necessary. Many people ride with stock valving and are quite happy. They can be quite an improvement though, depending on the tech. You fork has high speed damping and low speed damping, speed not meaning how fast you are going, but how fast the fork is moving. High speed damping is controlled by the valve, which is a disc with holes drilled through it. The smaller the holes, the more resistance to fluid flow. The Gold Valves have bigger holes than standard valves. Low speed damping is controlled by the shim stacks. The selection of shim stacks, as well as oil viscosity and quantity and spring rate is the secret. A tech who is good at suspension tuning will come up with the right combination for your weight, riding style and road conditions. The OEM (Ducati) set up is a compromise to satisfy as many riders in as many locals as possible. Whether the difference will be worth it or not has to be your decision
Quote from: ducpainter on March 28, 2009, 02:32:57 PM
Street or track, the upgrade is worth it.
I would suggest you don't let them use the recommended race-tech stack though.
It will be harsh.
When ducvet did my forks he modified the stack so only the largest bumps are even felt.
Is there another chart that is more accurate on the spring sugestions? I checked Traxxion & ohlins & was not able to find a chart. I am getting ready to respring my bike, there is not a shop in my area I would trust with this so I will be trying it myself. Would just droping one spot from race techs recomended street spring be the right way to go?
Quote from: caperix on May 17, 2009, 06:16:42 AM
Is there another chart that is more accurate on the spring sugestions? I checked Traxxion & ohlins & was not able to find a chart. I am getting ready to respring my bike, there is not a shop in my area I would trust with this so I will be trying it myself. Would just droping one spot from race techs recomended street spring be the right way to go?
How much do you weigh?
FWIW, I just redid my forks with RaceTech springs a few weeks ago. They don't list an 800 Dark so I plugged the numbers in for 750 and 900, aggressive street riding. One came up around .90 and one came up .95 so I went with .95. I like the fork and it's working much better. I also swapped the oil to 5W for faster damping. It dosn't have that horrible brake dive and tracks well over ruts and bumps in corners, the two problems I was most looking to correct. I really like the way it feels but it may be just a tad stiff and a little too quick. I'll probably trim a few mm off the fork spacers in the coming weeks and maybe add a little 7.5W oil to the 5W, like a 1:3 mix. For being 195 I would say the .9 or .85 springs are in your neighborhood, probably .9 if it were me but I hate soggy suspension.
Scott
FTR...I run .85 front and a 10.0 rear.
I weigh 180 in street clothes
I'm about 160 with out gear, I was leaning towards .85 front, 7.6 rear. I was a little afraid of race techs charts on the rear sence the only ST chassis monster I found listed was the S4r.
Does your bike have the hoop rear shock linkage or the rocker arm? How does it feel with the 10 rear, what sag numbers do you run? I am shooting for being able to get it to 35mm - 40mm I think that will be ok on the street.
Quote from: caperix on May 17, 2009, 08:26:15 AM
I'm about 160 with out gear, I was leaning towards .85 front, 7.6 rear. I was a little afraid of race techs charts on the rear sence the only ST chassis monster I found listed was the S4r.
Does your bike have the hoop rear shock linkage or the rocker arm? How does it feel with the 10 rear, what sag numbers do you run? I am shooting for being able to get it to 35mm - 40mm I think that will be ok on the street.
The RaceTech spring calculator for rear suspension on Monsters is FUBAR, don't use it.
Quote from: caperix on May 17, 2009, 08:26:15 AM
I'm about 160 with out gear, I was leaning towards .85 front, 7.6 rear. I was a little afraid of race techs charts on the rear sence the only ST chassis monster I found listed was the S4r.
Does your bike have the hoop rear shock linkage or the rocker arm? How does it feel with the 10 rear, what sag numbers do you run? I am shooting for being able to get it to 35mm - 40mm I think that will be ok on the street.
Mine has the hoop rear.
At 160 i think .85 might be a bit stiff.
You have a hoop on a 600 correct?
I think that 7.6 is too light.
I run
about 30mm front and rear.
Mine has the rocker arm. I do not know how much of a difference the hoop makes in shock leverage, I was looking at the lighter spring because of Racetechs sugestions. As many have pointed out those do not seem to be a good starting point. I guess more research is going to be required on my parts. Thank you for the input.
The suspension place here in Portland offered to measure my spring for free If I brought it in off the shock. They also sell springs so I figure I could get it measured and then buy the next one up for just a little bit more support.
Scott
i got .85 up front with valves to match. im ~150-155 in the flesh at my heaviest and around 165 with full gear on. i like it, but i cant say for sure until i try a .80 to say its better. each person has their own tastes and rides differently. The tech guy said, if im going to be doing a few track days, a tad bit stiffer up front will be better, so i decided to go with .85.