Ducati Monster Forum

OK we took a poll and the watercooled ST based on the 848 and 1098 were the 2nd most popular

now let's decide on some specs.

we already know two motors are available. with minor tweeks and the sort, lets decide what we would want in the new ST

give a brief breakdown of target specs, design elements and layout for a 848 and 1098(or 1198) based ST(can add cc's)

i'll take the best suggestions and turn them into a poll to finalize.

I'd like the ST's power house and seat accommodations to make 2-up riding pleasant. That's what I'm looking for in my Sport Tourer. Two-Up riding, and long distances. I'd like this bike to have a wet clutch, since my intended use would be as a two-up tourer. I'm not looking for quick-changes at the track, or flashy bling, but nice quite operation, so its me, the road, and the sound of the pipes.

18,000mi valve adjustments, 36,000mi belts (or other alternative valve/cam systems)  :o

Single sided swingarm

Center stand

Good looking functional luggage

like a multi but not so ugly

BIG gas tank.
Longer service intervals.
Good looking luggage (easily removable?)
Easy access to power for accessories.
2-up comfort.

Mostly Ducati should look at what people needed to fix with the previous ST models.

A fairing that can be removed in less than five minutes.
A good headlight.
A seat that is still comfortable after eight hours in the saddle.
Decent wind protection.
Bars that are high enough to not cause wrist fatigue.
And make sure it's lighter than all of the other Sport Touring bikes out there.

While I'm not sure its possible to be "lighter than all the other ST bikes out there" without costing a silly amount more, I would definitely like a good, factory HID light. And maybe heated grips with a good windscreen.

I thought the ST2/ST3/ST4 was already the lightest sport touring bike available.  I mainly don't want it to get significantly heavier.  My ST2 is already heavy enough.

I don't know the weights of the other ST's out there right now, and which of all the BMW's might be considered ST's (they nearly all look it to me, minus the GS and the 'cruiser'). Not aware of the numbers behind the hondayamazuki's or guzzi either. I do hope it stays light, but hope its not priced at such a level where it would be the only bike I could own.

ok let's get some numbers

copy and paste this and fill in the numbers for yourself for the small and large cc bikes

Weight:
HP:
Torque:
Price:
Engine Features:
Extras (luggage, power outlets, etc):

I would find it odd for their to be multiple displacement ST's...? I understand in the past there were ST2/3/4, for streamlining purposes, I don't see why Ducati would make less than the "new" ST4...

price points for one and some people can do without the extra power or size.

Weight:  450lb
HP:   120hp
Torque: 75ft lb
Price: 13,000
Engine Features:  1100cc water cooled, 18,000/36,600 mile valve/belt maintenance intervals
Extras: luggage, power outlets, adjustable windscreen, good headlight, single sided swingarm, center stand.

not to be contrary...
but wasnt the last ST series dropped by ducati due to low sales?

1198 with higher bars, a more comfortable seat, bags and a better electrical system to facilitate heated stuff, radios, GPS's and all that farkle stuff.

Yeh, but what do they know?  If they would just build one like us experts are saying, they could sell a million of them  ;)   :o

No, seriously though, a couple things that scared tourers away would have to change - like maintenance for example.

I don't think anyone would say the ST wasn't a great bike.

mitt

The normal evolution of the ST4 is what I would like.  As light as it can be using the Street fighter geometry - a little longer here is good.

An 1198 engine with full power, although I know if it were to come out now it would have a 1098 in it, the street fighter engine in it.

As easy to maintain as possible so far as removal of faring etc.  Hell I really don't see where desmo valves are necessary - I know sacrilege.

It would be interesting if a 106 X 78 was used to yield a 1375cc revving to about 8500 rpm for 4350 lfpm piston speed - 250 or so less than 999 Testastretta. Same heads as current 1198 (43.5mm intakes). It would be a torque king kong.  With the extra length of the S Fighter frame the engine placement should be doable.  It's just 10.5mm increase stroke.

Weight:                 less than 450 lbs wet, no bags
HP:                       150 RWHP
Torque:                 115 - 120 lb.ft.

LA

My version of the dream bike:

Weight:                 less than 420 lbs
HP:                       100 -110 hp
Torque:                 80 ft.lb.
Price:                    somewhere between a 1000S and a Multistrada  ($12K -$15K Cdn.  don't know U.S. prices )
Engine Features:    Either a de-tuned 848 engine but I'd also be happy with an air-cooled 1000DS engine if it lowered the price,
                            Longer maintenance intervals
Extras (luggage, power outlets, etc): removeable luggage, Lower seat height (31 inches) , adjustable (higher) handlebars, HID headlight, adjustable
                                                      windshield.

I don't need (or even want) the power that a 1098 engine would produce but the same specs with that engine would be killer too.

And as usual ... I will stir some controversy.    [evil]  PLEASE... Please don't make it "Buck Rogers" UGLY like the Multi, the Streetfighter, or the new Monster!  How about using the classic SS800 as the design inspiration?

Hmmm...After reading my specs..I think I should forget the ST and just go over to the other poll and build my dream SS.   [moto]

Maybe the ST should should be the big-engined, long distance tourer and the SS should be it's lighter, more nimble, smaller displacement and slightly less long-distance sister.

The sales weren't bad for a bike they never advertised or promoted. It's like I belong to some secret society where we all know that we own what could be the best all-round do everything motorcycle ever created.

I think I mentioned my wants in another thread, but to reiterate:

1. Single Sided Swing Arm.
2. 1198 motor with the same head mods that gives the ST4s great mid-range.
3. Underseat Exhaust.
4. Wiring for Autocom system (I need this for moto-marshalling)
5. Hazard flashers. (I need them for moto-marshalling)
6. Lighter wheels than the Brembo "Marchisinis" (Maybe an option for CF wheels)
7. Radial mono-block calipers with the large diameter rotors.
8. Ohlins forks as standard on 's' model STs. (just like the Uglystrada)
9. Longer service intervals. I'd be happy at 10k, afterall, I am asking for a detuned SBK motor in the chassis.
10. Blinding lights, just like the Ducati Designs light I have retro fitted to my ST4s
11. Carbon fiber body panels with Dzus fastners.
12. For Ducati to hire Germans to do the electrics. At least they'll put in the right size wiring.
13. One key for everything.
14. A tool kit that has tools that are really practical for emergency roadside repairs.
15. Bar risers
16. Heated grips
17. Heated seat (Sub this out to Sargent, cause Ducati seats are the suck)
18. Ditch the Uglystrada digital dash and bring back the cool analog SBK dash like my ST4s has.
19. Traction control (I ride in the wet often)
20. Move back the oil filler to a place where partial faring removal is not necessary to top off the oil. Or redesign the fairing to achieve the same goal.
 
I sure I can think of more things...

Fully adjustable rear shock
Agree with most of the other stuff, particularly adjustable screen, comfy biposto for non-supermodel/ Pedrosa  sized people, heated grips, big ole gas tank, decent luggage with one key...
But can I get it in red?

So far it looks like everybody is okay with chain maintenance.

Nobody wants a shaft or belt drive?  (I'm happy with the chain.)

Sounds like most of you guys are asking for something rather like the so-called Multistrada Replacement, as pictured here:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18871.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18871.0)

Weight, power, two-up capacity, suspension, fuel range likely about right.

So is there something about this bike that wouldn't also make it the ST replacement?

People say they want comfy. But is the point to have comfy in something that still looks more like a GP replica than a trail bike or GS?

And if so, how can it be done any more comfy than the ST already did it?

BMW has been plagued with final drive failures for the last several years.  DNF because of such failures was a not so funny joke among the Iron Butt and endurance riders. Riders are looking at other brands now and the number of BMWs in endurance riding supposedly declined.

A chain drive is actually more efficient and a lot easier to fix, even if you have to carry a chain tool and extra chain. So I'm happy with chain also.

one of my biggest complaints about the ST when i did try it on, was its size. it was heavy, COG top heavy and tall. the MS followed suit by being so tall i guess for 'offroad' capability. a new ST should be something that can handle the autobahn at speed and twisties in the mountains all while COMFORTABLY seating two with their luggage for a week of riding. you shouldn't have to be 6'+ and 200 lbs to handle it in a parking lot, or benchpress a ton to get it on the center stand.

so in my ideal world

Weight:                 less than 400 lbs dry for small 420 for large
HP:                       100 -110 hp for small, 150-160hp for large
Price:                    11,000 for small, 14,000 for large
Engine Features:    848 and 1198 motors tuned for more torque less HP
Extras (luggage, power outlets, etc): removeable luggage (side, rear and tankpanels), Low seat height (no more than 32 inches) , high handlebars, HID and useable flasher (touring needs breaks and a single turn signal is dangerous on the highway), 2 or 3 position windshield, two-possible bodywork styles (half and full fairing). heated grips and power outlets for GPS, heated gear, comms.

One of the things that I like the most about the ST is that it has more leg room than the Monster.  Monsters are good for short people and STs and Multistradas for those of us who don't have that problem.

I agree on the weight part, though.  I don't mind the weight of my ST unless I'm getting off of a lighter bike right before riding it.

i'm 5'10" and felt uncomfortable at lights.

You just needed to get used to it. I'm 5'9" (at best) and have been riding a Multi 1000 for 2+ years...in all weather conditions. You just have to plan your stops more carefully until you get used to the height...no problem. That's not to say you have to choose where to stop...you just can't put your foot down indecisevly, or at the last second. Basically, the height forces you to become a better rider.

People may hate the looks, but the Multi is very comfortable...and it is WAY easier to handle at slow speeds than a Monster, despite it's height and weight.

I think I can comment on this since I have an 05 ST3.
What would I change?
I love the bike first off, they changed a number of things for the 05 model year that fixed alot of earlier gripes.
Ducati upgraded the seat and the headlight. I put 1400 miles on the bike in 2 days and felt great. the ergos are
really nice. But what to change? As mentioned before, the valve and belt maint needs to be extended. It's a pain that
I have to do a valve and belt change once if not twice a year!
The luggage is great but come on, you only need one key, not two. I freaking hate that.
the 05 has a powerlet outlet so that's cool. I wired a powerlet in my tank bag too so I have tons of extra plugins.
More power. The 05 has the 992 in it. I would love a bit more power to the rear wheel.
Some people have mentioned better wind screens etc. I want to keep the "sport" aspect of the bike.
Just fix the little things. Oh and adjustable suspension all in one model instead of a base model (ST3) and the
model with better suspension (ST3s).
I liked Scott's mentioning being able to take the body work off in under an hour. I switched to Dzus fasteners but it's still
a pain to change the oil or get at the battery.

heated grips, heated seat

I can get mine off in under an hour.  But I can't do it in five minutes like it should be.  I really miss the Monster in that area where you can easily get to everything in about two minutes.

The last time I had to yank the fairings from my ST2 I almost had it back together when I accidentally dropped one of the screws for a mirror.  I had to take everything back off to get to that screw.  Very annoying.

Of course I was being facetious about the hour but you know what I mean.
I've dropped the screw down in the body work as well and had to take everything apart to get it.
It really should come apart quicker.

Not to step on any toes, but some of the lists here are bordering on terribly long a bit excessive.

Sub 400 pounds and 120 hp? Does this really need to outrun an S4R?

+1.  That recipe will equal a $30k bike that has the specs on paper but nobody will buy.

I still struggle to understand why the specs need to be that much different than the ST3 was.  Fix the 2 or 3 things that were wrong with it, and bingo.

mitt

Ummmm....No.                    We're talking something that isn't butt ugly!                ;D           

The ST3 was a great bike.  I believe they put out something like 105 - 110 HP with a termi kin on it.  Give that bike an additional 200cc and and 42mm intake valves you would have a great touring platform. 

Using the current Street Fighter as the basis of the ST would be great too.  You would be starting out with a supper light foundation and the increase wheelbase would be beneficial but not hurt handling at all. 

And someone mentioned popularity of a chain drive.  Hell It's really chain NO MAINTENANCE these days.  With a single sided swingarm and these nearly indestructible chains we have these days, there as easy as shaft drives and according to some failure rates I've been hearing about some shaft drives lately, there as reliable too. Well you do have to replace em every now and again.

LA

If BMW can build and sell a 1300GT model with 160 hp,  + 99 lb. ft of torque for $21,000 and change and have lots of things like Electronic Suspension Adjustment , ABS brakes, heated grips, on board computer, power outlets, electronic adjustable windscreen and more.

Ducati ought to be able to build a bigger touring bike that handles well , stops great, looks terrific, is comfortable and sells for less than the BMW K 1300 GT.   Dolph   

Weight: < 600 lbs
HP:    100
Torque:  min 80, preferably closer to 100
Price:  < $16,000
Engine Features:  longer service intervals (e.g. valve adjustment @ 12K+ miles)
Extras (luggage, power outlets, etc):  Power outlets for accessories (e.g. cell, iPod); Luggage; Sat radio; Heated grips and seat; HID headlight; LED turn signals - front should be integrated into the windscreen and/or mirrors; Seating position should be comfortable - especially for hands when on the grips and your hands don't lose circulation; Good suspension (e.g. Ohlins); 240mm rear tire - just kidding.   [cheeky]

Since I bought the new girl, I've only done a minimum amount of touring (couple hundred miles in a day) but here's my $.02.

Weight: I'd say around the 450 pound wet range.  It doesn't need to be superlight and I feel like a really light bike would feel noodly with 100lbs of gear and a pillion. 

HP: this goes along I agree with Mr.Inc.  This thing doesn't need to run a constant 150mph, but at the same time it has to have enough oomph for all the rider/gear weight plus the ability to get on it when a certain Victory rider decides he's got a bug up his ass :).  100hp, give or take?  I guess top speed compared to power would depend on gearing too.

Torque: compared to a Monster I think a higher torque to HP ratio would be nice.  Close to 80 or 90ft lbs

Price:  Depending on options <20k

Engine Features: chain drive sounds good to me.  Oh, and better than average stoppers.  I had a pucker moment last weekend with give or take 40 lbs of gear, the GF on pillion, and an unexpected turn my buddy decided to take.  I don't know too much else about engine goodies. 

Extras (luggage, power outlets, etc):  Power outlets, luggage (with one key), heated grips, adjustable suspension, good gel saddle, and hazards should be stock.  I hate having to buy a bike like a Harley that comes with two wheels and an engine, then you have to chuck another 10k into it just to make it moderately functional. ABS, center stand

I'm basing most of this on my BMW so I'm not really taking looks into account.  I'm goin more towards the functional aspect of the thing.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Jervisaurus/DSCN1478.jpg)

As far as the fairing issues people have been listing, I think a setup like ^^ is more efficient than your standard direct frame mount system.  The one thing I don't like about the STx series is that your legs and upper body are totally exposed to airflow.  Read: nice in summer, excruciating in winter.  I've had the Beemer on 2 hour highway runs at 20F with no issues other than a bit of hand discomfort (old heated grips, not as great as they used to be) and I couldn't imagine doing the same on the Monster or any other partially faired bike for that matter. 

I also agree with Double Eagle.  I realize Ducati is a "sports bike" company, but I've seen guys hustle some pretty good sized bikes through the twisties with no problem.  As long as they beef up the suspension/brakes/engine a bit, it will run just fine with the rest of them.

 The ST was a great touring bike, if your in your 20's or 30's. I think that's the problem for Ducati, how many young guys are going to buy a Ducati touring bike? Most just want to go fast. There's really no such thing as a sport/touring bike. If you ride the twistys there's gonna be something you don't like and if take you wife/girlfriend on a 1,000 mile trip there's gonna be something you don't like.
    The ST3 for me was painful to ride (I'm in my mid 40's). About 400 miles a day was all I wanted. So when the ST was stolen I bought a Multistrada. By far the most comfortable Duc made! If it just wasn't so damn ugly! But the Multi has its limitations also. The wind protection ain't that great, the suspension is more sport than tour, and the vibration gets to you after a while. Now I'm going to trade the Multi for a BMW R1200RT :o That Beemer is smooth as butter, and the front end doesn't take a nose dive under hard braking. But, it don't sound like a Duc! In a few months I'm gonna buy another Monster for a play bike.
   The perfect bike will never be made, thats why a man needs at least two bikes.