I had planned to have a pro do this for me, but financially issue have made this impossible, so it is up to me. The bike is a '95 SS900Sp with Showa full adj.
- I need to figure out what seals I need for front and rear. Is there a decent brand of seals out there? I am hesitant to buy any old brand from ebay and dealer prices seem outrageous.
- It seems that there are no specialty tools required for the front end, is this true? What about the rear shock?
- I would like to get new springs, as the bike had been tuned for a 250 lbs rider and I am 150 lbs. Is there a spring/rider weight chart out there?
Thank you!
If its anything like my newer showas, you'll probably need a spring compressor.. you can make one using home "despot" goodies for about 5-8 bucks.
Get the Haynes manual and/or L.T. Snyder's. The forks are fairly straight forward, a seal dirver is also needed but you can fab something up that will work. I think the rear shock is a bit more involved.
Quote from: EEL on April 05, 2009, 09:46:57 AM
If its anything like my newer showas, you'll probably need a spring compressor.. you can make one using home "despot" goodies for about 5-8 bucks.
Care to elaborate? I'd be very interested in a cheap spring tool, too [thumbsup]
Thanks.
the rear shock is a piece of cake.
I just did mine over the winter. In the garage, on the side stand, by myself. The only tool I had was a universal spanner wrench I picked up for 12 bucks. I wouldnt suggest doing it alone if you dont have to but it was way easier then I expected. I weigh 195 and used a eibach 650 spring. you would probably want a 600, but ask more knowledgeable folks. (search my recent posts to read informative info from more knowledgeable people on the front and rear springs. They may answer a bunch of your questions)
I am in the same boat on the front springs and I think we have the same forks as well (01 fully adjustable showas). I was recommended .90 springs. If I had to guess you would need .85kg. I hate having to pay labor when I can do it myself. From what I read on here the front is more difficult. The taking off part is not so hard but more of the internal stuff, like the seals. However it seems like it should be fairly straight forward if you have front and rear stands. (or at least a way of holding the front of the bike up, I dont) :( You dont need a spring compressor see link http://www.squidbusters.com/sb/showthread.php?t=7816 (http://www.squidbusters.com/sb/showthread.php?t=7816)
Thanks for the info everyone! i went to the RaceTech site, not sure why I hadnt already gone there! they had a lot of info like available parts and the spring rate calc, which made a calc for my weight and street riding and also told me what was the stock rates! Next, more sleep and then research and order parts!
Quote from: bschur13 on April 05, 2009, 09:29:20 PM
the rear shock is a piece of cake.
I just did mine over the winter. In the garage, on the side stand, by myself. The only tool I had was a universal spanner wrench I picked up for 12 bucks. I wouldnt suggest doing it alone if you dont have to but it was way easier then I expected. I weigh 195 and used a eibach 650 spring. you would probably want a 600, but ask more knowledgeable folks. (search my recent posts to read informative info from more knowledgeable people on the front and rear springs. They may answer a bunch of your questions)
I am in the same boat on the front springs and I think we have the same forks as well (01 fully adjustable showas). I was recommended .90 springs. If I had to guess you would need .85kg. I hate having to pay labor when I can do it myself. From what I read on here the front is more difficult. The taking off part is not so hard but more of the internal stuff, like the seals. However it seems like it should be fairly straight forward if you have front and rear stands. (or at least a way of holding the front of the bike up, I dont) :( You dont need a spring compressor see link http://www.squidbusters.com/sb/showthread.php?t=7816 (http://www.squidbusters.com/sb/showthread.php?t=7816)
Changing the spring on the rear is simple. The OP asked about seals tho, and that's a different ball game. The front seals aren't that difficult and if you want to do your own maintenance the manuals will pay for themselves first time out.
You can get fork seals from RaceTech.
They probably have seals for the rear shock.
They also sell seal drivers for the forks.
It is possible to improvise a way to install the front seals, if you're careful.
Front springs? I'd say .80.
rear, I'd say an 8.0 or 8.5, depending on how you ride.
Dunno if the RaceTech spring calculator is good for the rear on an SS, their one for the Monster is FUBAR.
Quote from: Dan on April 06, 2009, 03:13:48 AMChanging the spring on the rear is simple. The OP asked about seals tho, and that's a different ball game. The front seals aren't that difficult and if you want to do your own maintenance the manuals will pay for themselves first time out.
That is correct, I need to replace the seals in the rear shock as well. What manuals and where can they be purchased? I plan to get the DesmoTimes book.
Quote from: Speeddog on April 06, 2009, 10:13:55 AM
You can get fork seals from RaceTech.
They probably have seals for the rear shock.
They also sell seal drivers for the forks.
It is possible to improvise a way to install the front seals, if you're careful.
Front springs? I'd say .80.
rear, I'd say an 8.0 or 8.5, depending on how you ride.
Dunno if the RaceTech spring calculator is good for the rear on an SS, their one for the Monster is FUBAR.
Here's what the RaceTech calc says,
FRONT FORK SPRINGS
Recommended Fork Spring Rate for Street:
0.806 kg/mm (use closest available)
Stock Fork Spring Rate: .650 kg/mm (stock)
REAR SHOCK SPRING
Recommended Rear Shock Spring Rate for Street:
6.88 kg/mm (use closest available)
Stock Shock Spring Rate: 8.5* kg/mm (stock)
This seems a little odd to me, a heavier than stock in the front and a lighter than stock in the rear?? From other people tuning their bikes I was under the impression that I would be looking for .80-.85 for the front, but I havent seen any info for the rear.
I ride street alot, weekends are spent in the Santa Cruz Mtns (near the infamous Alice's) riding mildly aggressive and i regularily ride large North Cali loops (3-500 miles). The long runs pretty much kill me in the current setup, but that is too stiff and I have a bad lower back.
The stock front springs are likely the crapola dual-rate ones, hence the ridiculous low rate that RaceTech shows.
.80 front springs are about the softest you'll find available.
Hmmm.
Seems the Racetech calculator is FUBAR for SS too. [roll]
There's quite a few good suspension shops in your general area.
In your situation, I'd give the rear shock to them for a rebuild.
On the rear shock you could also contact DUCVET (google: clubhouse motorsports) and mail it to him.
He just did a full rebuild on mine for an extremely reasonable (Read Cheap) price.
Quote from: gage on April 06, 2009, 02:50:34 PM
On the rear shock you could also contact DUCVET (google: clubhouse motorsports) and mail it to him.
He just did a full rebuild on mine for an extremely reasonable (Read Cheap) price.
He's a sponsor here so you can pm him also.
Quote from: Low594 on April 06, 2009, 12:28:15 PMFrom other people tuning their bikes I was under the impression that I would be looking for .80-.85 for the front, but I havent seen any info for the rear.
It's pretty easy to compare front spring rates across different bikes, 'cause the geometry is all pretty much the same (small differences in rake angle can be safely ignored), but you can't compare rear spring rates without taking linkage ratios into account. What other people use for spring rates on their Monster or R6 or whatever isn't directly comparable to your SS, unless you know the linkage ratios are the same...
big
Quote from: bigiain on April 06, 2009, 05:57:53 PM
It's pretty easy to compare front spring rates across different bikes, 'cause the geometry is all pretty much the same (small differences in rake angle can be safely ignored), but you can't compare rear spring rates without taking linkage ratios into account. What other people use for spring rates on their Monster or R6 or whatever isn't directly comparable to your SS, unless you know the linkage ratios are the same...
big
...and add the fact that the SS has no linkage it becomes even more muddled.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 06, 2009, 06:16:44 PM
...and add the fact that the SS has no linkage it becomes even more muddled.
I _think_ they still refer to "linkage ratios" even when the shock is directly connected to the swingarm and frame like an SS - it's the ratio of distance moved vertically by the axle compared to distance the spring compresses, and it's rarely 1:1 except maybe for old school twin shock machines with vertically mounted shocks - even angling the shock forward changes that ratio.
It gets more complicated pretty quickly too - the old monsters with the 851 derived suspension have a "rising rate linkage", which means the linkage ratio changes throughout the suspensions travel, getting "harder" as the suspension compresses, so your "optimal" spring rate depends on your static loaded sag... I'm not sure how close to linear rates the new non-hoop suspenson Monsters are, but by eye I'd guess _reasonably_ close, as for the SS suspension, I've got no idea...
(Interesting note, although rising rate linkages were cutting edge world superbike winning technology back in the 851/888 heyday, these days MotoGP bikes use falling rate linkages - the theory being you need much more "suppleness" in the suspension when leaned over at 55 degrees or more and the vertical movement of the rear wheel becomes a much larger movement in the suspension travel direction.)
big
If I had looked at this thread before I left the shop... I'd have some useful measurements.
Tomorrow...
I imagine the SS is not going to have too much variation in the linkage ratio.
I don't know what the variation is on a hoop-style rear, but I've taken good measurements on the late-model ST-style stuff.
ST-style varies from about 3:1 to 2:1.
Progression is pretty quick near full extension, it's down to 2.3 or so at half-travel.
I can see how a MotoGP bike may require something quite different.
Not sure how the bumps are on their tracks either.
Any track that hosts F1 or other high-downforce or heavy cars is going to get peculiar bumps, much like natural-terrain motocross gets.
The comparison research that i've done was just a mental collection of rider weight and spring on the same series SS, cause anything else couldn't be reliably counted on as a comparison.
Finding someone to do a rebuild on it really isnt the issue at this point. I actually had it all lined up. The issue is the funds to do it. I was laid off a few months ago and housing/gas prices here are very high. That and having my truck broken into (stereo destroyed, CB Radio stolen and window broken) has made funds even tighter! If i had my way it would be dialed in exactly for me, but at this time seals will have to do. But if i can find the proper or even just better rate springs, that will have to do.
Currently the left fork seal weeps and the rear shock has only lost the droop, compression is still intact. I'm going to contact DUCVET and see what he can do tho, thanks everyone!
Does anyone know if the rear springs were the same for '90s SuperSport and '90s Monsters?
Different
Quote from: bigiain on April 06, 2009, 08:21:29 PM
I _think_ they still refer to "linkage ratios" even when the shock is directly connected to the swingarm and frame like an SS - it's the ratio of distance moved vertically by the axle compared to distance the spring compresses, and it's rarely 1:1 except maybe for old school twin shock machines with vertically mounted shocks - even angling the shock forward changes that ratio.
It gets more complicated pretty quickly too - the old monsters with the 851 derived suspension have a "rising rate linkage", which means the linkage ratio changes throughout the suspensions travel, getting "harder" as the suspension compresses, so your "optimal" spring rate depends on your static loaded sag... I'm not sure how close to linear rates the new non-hoop suspenson Monsters are, but by eye I'd guess _reasonably_ close, as for the SS suspension, I've got no idea...
(Interesting note, although rising rate linkages were cutting edge world superbike winning technology back in the 851/888 heyday, these days MotoGP bikes use falling rate linkages - the theory being you need much more "suppleness" in the suspension when leaned over at 55 degrees or more and the vertical movement of the rear wheel becomes a much larger movement in the suspension travel direction.)
big
I _think_....
I even understood what you said. ;D