Here's the Readers Digest version.... (also posted on Monster List)
I have a '99 M900 (carbie) that, for the most part, runs good at mostly legal speeds. The problem rears its ugly head [evil] when I reach 90+ and try and hold it for any length of time. Sometimes only seconds!
At that time it totally dogs down and sounds like it's really sucking a lot of air. Almost like it's out of gas. When I roll off the throttle (about 1/3 of the time) it seems to pick up and run OK. The other 2/3 of the time it almost dies completely. I have just picked it up from the dealer where they have checked the jetting for a new exhaust I put on (Gia Ca Moto) and they told me that it did not need new jets, just some tweaking.
Well, I took my first ride on it yesterday (weather finally warmed enough) and sure enough, it did it again. [bang] The only thing I can come up with is the wind/air movement is somehow affecting the mixture and causing the problem. Is this really possible? It seems odd that I don't hear more about it if it is. I would think everyone would have that problem then.
What's killing me is that I love this bike and don't want to get rid of it but I'm coming home pissed off everytime I ride it. I'd sell the thing and get something different if I could but, who'd buy a hopped up Monster that doesn't hop?
I need help! I think I'm pretty mechanically inclined but I do not have "the coolest set of tools" and would be a bit leery about taking on more than I could handle. I've read a bunch of threads here that sound similar but not quite the same. (and, most are EFI bikes)
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Hey Dave...
Well, there are a couple of 3/8" vent lines coming from the carbs which are supposed to go into a 'dead-air' box which is located on the side of the bike. Trouble is, they're ugly and easily removable. If care is taken and the hoses (which are identifyable by dark-grey filter-looking things in them) are routed to some dead air space then the bike runs fine and the ugly boxes on the sides of the frame are gone. If they're not routed to some dead-air space... Then as wind blows on them, they raise up the slide partially which messes with the carburation some. Could be your problem.
(dead air space: Not a vacuum, but somewhere that if the wind blows it won't be affected like routing the hoses up under the tank next to the battery)
Other possibility? Weak fuel pump. When you're experiencing this problem, you're using a lot of fuel so the demand on the pump is high. If it's getting weak then it could be the culprit. DON'T go to a dealer and ask how much the pump is. You'll have a stroke and die. Instead, there's a Polaris fuel pump rebuild kit that's available that will work just fine and it's under $20. The fuel pump that's on your bike is the EXACT same as the Polaris BTW...so there's no cobbling something to make it work. It just works..
Not much more to add...
except maybe check the float level.... ;)
And check the fuel filter as well. Cheap and easy and with the increased load at the higher speeds it may be not letting enough fuel through.
Sounds like something to try [roll]
I did have some problems with this before and took it to a local guy that owns a performance shop (mainly cars but he rides Duc's and BMW's) and he added the hoses to the carbs. It did seem to help quite a bit at first but then didn't anymore. This was before the new exhaust. I currently have an open air box. I did try and switch with my wife (she has 01 Dark) and it was hard to tell if it was the lid or something else.
When I took it to the dealer last month to have them re-check the jets for the exhaust, the mechanic removed the hoses.
I'll try putting hoses back on first, then different air box lid, then fuel pump.
Thanks for the comments.
Probably your "open airbox" would be my guess. You can get away with enlarging the opening in the stocker, but I was told by several people not to completely get rid of it or you will have rideability issues.
Worth a shot, let us know. [coffee]
Quote from: Stangman on April 07, 2009, 09:06:04 AM
Probably your "open airbox" would be my guess. You can get away with enlarging the opening in the stocker, but I was told by several people not to completely get rid of it or you will have rideability issues.
Worth a shot, let us know. [coffee]
The air box is not completely cut. The gap between where the snorkels go is cut and the snorkels are gone. I have tried my wifes (she has a 01 M600 Dark) and it seemed to help but have not tried it since the jetting was checked. I'll also check what Duck-Stew mentioned and see exactly what I've got going on with the air tubes that used to be there.
As long as Mother Nature plays nice, I should be able to check this stuff out this weekend.
Here's where I'm at so far...
I did put some hoses on the carbs and routed them to some dead air space. It does help some but the problem is still there. Also, on the front side of the carbs there are a couple of holes (in the float area). On my wife's bike (M600 Dark) there are little rubber plugs in those holes. Should I have those?
Next step is to check the float height. I got a web site link from someone on DML that explains this process quite nicely so I should be OK with this.
I have not replaced the fuel filter yet. I have seen many people comment on NOT buying from the dealer. Do you have a suggestion where to go? I live around (or can get to) all the major auto parts shops but I'm pretty sure they are not going to carry a factory Ducati part number. Does anyone have that part number?
Also, since I have never removed the carbs before, or pulled apart the fuel filter, should I be draining my gas tank or is it going to go every where?
I know I'm coming off kind of inept but honestly, I've never worked on motors before. If you want me to rebuild your stereo or PA system for your band, I'm the guy [thumbsup] So, I really appreciate the help you guys are giving me.
I'm going to start pulling the carbs off tonight. The weather is supposed to warm up mid to end of week so I should be able to get out again and check it out.
I'll keep you posted!
I hear autozone has an exact replacement for the carbie filter.
Just take your filter to autozone or advance auto and match the inlet/outlets to the same size and it will work fine. They usually have a small wall of filters to choose from.
Put a pair of needlenose vise grips on the fuel line upstream of the filter. That way fuel does not leak.
The Ducati dealer will charge you a few bucks more. If the dealer is close by and the convenience is worth it to you there is no reason not to go there.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 52
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OK! Here's the latest...
I have removed and adjusted the floats to be the recommended 14mm. (actually, not as hard as I thought it would be)
Took it for a ride... when I left home, it worked great but the longer I rode it, the worse it got. Right to the point that it actually killed about 4 times in the last 5-7 mile ride home. Within the last mile or so it completely died and I'm sitting on the side of the road on the edge of town waiting for it to cool down, rest, whatever it needed to do to work again. When I started it up again, now, not only does it still suck air but I have a nasty grinding noise that to me, sounds really bad. I can't even tell exactly where it is coming from. The only thing I can think of is that I did crank the revs up quite a bit to keep it running. Man I hope I didn't break anything else!
It gets even better! I lost my job on Monday! Now I have time to work on it but I have no money to spend. What the hell?
My next step is to replace the fuel filter. Didn't look bad from what I saw but what the heck.. can't hurt.
I gotta tell you, I'm about ready to dump this thing and go back to a jap bike. I never had any problems with them. I know, blasphemy
Part of me wants to dump this thing completely and part of me wants to make this work. Maybe I need a new motor... or most of a new motor... I don't know.
Unless I'm being totally stupid, I don't see a fuel pump on my bike. Shouldn't I have one? What's the darn thing look like? (showing my ignorance here but remember, I've never worked on motors before)
I'll keep everyone updated to my saga as it continues.
Thanks for listening to my venting
Very sorry to hear about that (bike & job etc.).
I can totally sympathize. The wife & I both lost our job within a month of each other (with a new born baby at home). After a few months I have found work, wife still looking... Oh, and my bike won't run either!
Just trying to say, I feel for you and wish you nothing but good luck!!!
Sorry about the job. Anyway, change the filter before going any further. Always go for easy and cheap first. The filter might look clean, but the filter medium can still be clogged. When your bike came out of the factory it was equipped with a vacuum operated, pentagram shaped fuel pump sitting between the cylinders on the right side. It may have been replaced with a substitute. Anyway, if you follow the fuel line from the tank to the carbs you will find it.
The grinding noise could be a starter solenoid beginning to go due to overheating from repeated starting. The monsters have a very common issue with weak solenoids that cause the start to stick on even after the bike starts and that can make some noise. Just a suggestion.
Didn't some of these older monsters also have issues with the stator/generator nut coming loose and causing some noisy/destructive problems?
Quote from: needtorque on April 18, 2009, 08:23:01 PM
Didn't some of these older monsters also have issues with the stator/generator nut coming loose and causing some noisy/destructive problems?
Yup.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 18, 2009, 08:24:12 PM
Yup.
Thought so. This could also be causing the running problems you are having. Might need to pull the side cover if your making lots of noise like that. Try to turn the motor over my hand and see where the noise originates. If that proves to difficult then pull the side cover, it is not that hard. Stick with it. Don't give up, once you find the problem and fix it you will feel very rewarded.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 13, 2009, 09:37:11 AM
I hear autozone has an exact replacement for the carbie filter.
Yup, it should be the same as my 750's filter. It's a 3047 from Auto Zone.
JM
Thanks for the input guys! (journeyman thanks for the part number)
I'll see what I can come up with this week.
I'll keep you posted.
OK!
I have changed the fuel filter (thanks for the info on that. It only cost $5 at AutoZone) and everything is back together.
When I start it, I still hear a grinding noise that sounds like it is coming from the back cylinder. Which, by the way, doesn't even get warm now. Telling me that it is not firing.
What could I have possibly done that would cause such a thing? :'(
I'll try anything so go ahead and suggest away.
Oh yeah, does anyone here work in commercial printing and looking for a Prepress Manager? I'll move where ever if I have to.
Thanks,
Quote from: MonsterDave on April 23, 2009, 12:54:13 PM
When I start it, I still hear a grinding noise that sounds like it is coming from the back cylinder. Which, by the way, doesn't even get warm now. Telling me that it is not firing.
What could I have possibly done that would cause such a thing? :'(
What do your spark plugs look like (especially the one in the rear cylinder)? Have you replaced them lately?
I had a fouled plug in the rear cylinder of my Monster once, and the bike was surging and then occasionally firing on both cylinders. :o [laugh]
Replacements only cost a few $$, and it's one more thing you can check off the diagnostic list.
List of possibles:
-something fell off into the cylinder like part of the plug
-Lean condition caused predetonation and a blown piston
-poor oil supply or simply a broken ring for whatever reason
No matter it sounds like you may be removing the cylinder to find out.
Quick check method:
Pull the plug and take the cylinder to top dead center. Get out a flashlight with a very narrow beam and look in the cylinder to see if there is something visibly wrong with the piston.
For sure method:
Get a compression gauge and do a compression test on the cylinder. If you don't know how I can explain it but you are looking to pull 125 or higher on the test. If there is catastrophic failure you probably wont pull anything on the test. If a ring has failed you might get some compression but not as much like maybe 50-60.
Well, I think I might be getting the hang of this 'repair' thing [thumbsup]
After I made my last post I decided that I would start taking a look at everything I thought I could remove and replace without too much trouble. I removed the belt covers and wouldn't you know it... my rear belt was toast :o
So, after calling my local dealer (about 60 miles away) and finding out they have bunches of them in stock, I'll be taking a ride tomorrow [moto] to get one. And it is only $30 [thumbsup]
When I return and get it installed, I'll let you know how it all turned out.
Thanks needtorque for the suggestions but I am very happy that it was not anything serious.
Until then...
Quote from: MonsterDave on April 23, 2009, 04:31:15 PM
Well, I think I might be getting the hang of this 'repair' thing [thumbsup]
After I made my last post I decided that I would start taking a look at everything I thought I could remove and replace without too much trouble. I removed the belt covers and wouldn't you know it... my rear belt was toast :o
So, after calling my local dealer (about 60 miles away) and finding out they have bunches of them in stock, I'll be taking a ride tomorrow [moto] to get one. And it is only $30 [thumbsup]
When I return and get it installed, I'll let you know how it all turned out.
Thanks needtorque for the suggestions but I am very happy that it was not anything serious.
Until then...
Define "toast"
QuoteI'll be taking a ride tomorrow to get one.
I`d replace both, they could`ve been fr a bad batch.
A pic of the toasted one would be educating!
QuoteWhen I start it, I still hear a grinding noise that sounds like it is coming from the back cylinder
Combining that w a bad belt, do you have compression?
Sorry but you might not get off that easy. If by toast you mean broken then you are in for a "treat". You have an interference engine. What that means is if the belt breaks or slips then valves hit pistons and parts break inside. Like pistons and valves. The grinding you heard is more than likely broken parts.
Where to begin?
By "toast" I mean that the belt on the rear cylinder was split in the middle (narrow width of belt) and a few teeth were ground off. My guess is the grinding noise I heard was the belt slipping on the top gear.
I know, this could be REAL bad :'(
What I have done is removed the belts and spark plugs in order to adjust the timing 'dots' where they need to be. Because of this problem, I have also removed the cover on the rear valve to see if everything moves correctly/properly. It does. I also looked into the cylinder to see if there were any broken parts or damage. There was not! (at least anything I could see) I also watched the front cylinder move (bike in gear, tire off the ground) to and past TDC. So, I think the front cylinder is OK.
My next step (tomorrow) will be to see if I can get the valve cover off the front without removing the air box and see how that looks.
Here are some things I noticed while doing this:
1. Both front and rear 'valve gears' (not sure what they are really called) move freely by hand. (I can spin them without any problems and they do have the resistance area where the springs must be doing their thing)
2. With the bike in gear (3rd or 4th) when I try to spin the wheel, it will move, but only about 8" - 12" (very rough guess) and then stop with a rather heavy clunk. I'm guessing this is really bad?
I have just downloaded a PDF M900 service manual to see if that will help me. It's not very... what's the word?...thorough! And everything I want to try needs some damn special tool [bang]
Thanks needtorque for the lighter "interference engine" phrase. That sounds better than saying I'm totally screwed.
I need BEER to think this over. I'll let you know tomorrow night how it's going.
Till then [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink]
Well. With the belts off and timing marks lined up it is likely that all the valves are closed. This will still make it difficult to turn the bike over while in gear. Moving 8-12" before encountering resistance seems a bit far. Like I said before. Get the belts back on and get a compression tester. Run a compression test on both cylinders and post results here if you don't understand them. Or, if you need procedural help I can tell you how it is pretty simple really.
After digging through everything I could, I pulled the head on the rear cylinder. What I discovered was quite impressive! Turns out there was some kind of nut or something resting on the cylinder head. Fortunately, the valves look to be fine. No scrapes or anything. The valve slots on the piston took a bit of a beating but appear in decent shape along with the bottom of the head where the valves are. (see photos)
Here's my question.
Is my piston and head toast? or can I grind them smooth? I'm not talking grinding a ton, just enough to smooth it down.
What does everyone think?
If someone would tell me how, I will post pictures. I can't figure it out. I'm probably being stupid.
Pics first then comments. Get pics of the piston and the cylinder walls. Also pics of the valve side of the head so we can see the valves. Ohh and a pic of whatever was inside, things dont just "fall" into the cylinder.
If piston met valve, at least a valve or two are bent and a valve guide or 2 could be toast.
Heads most likely not.
Pics is good.
Like I said, I don't know how to post pics. If someone would kindly tell me, I have them to post.
Quote from: MonsterDave on April 28, 2009, 06:21:36 PM
Like I said, I don't know how to post pics. If someone would kindly tell me, I have them to post.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.msg2493#msg2493 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.msg2493#msg2493)
Ya know, as soon as I got to the link, I remembered that you have to upload them elsewhere and post the link. [bang]
So, here are the pics.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveandvicky/sets/72157617453244350/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/daveandvicky/sets/72157617453244350/)
Man I have no idea wtf that thing is lol. OK, so I cannot see the cylinder walls in any of those pics. The intake valve looks like it took a good smack. To be on the safe side and since you have one off maybe take a look into some HC pistons and maybe have a shop check out the cylinder and the head.. ca-cycleworks has some nice pistons for a good price. I would not run it like that but thats just me.
I would go ahead and replace the pistons and have both cylinders checked along with the head that took the beating while I had it all disassembled.
You're right, you can't see the cylinder walls because I didn't take a picture of them. (sorry) They are however, baby butt smooth. No scratches or nothing! [thumbsup]
I would love to replace the cylinders since it's apart but since I'm not working any more, that would be difficult. (mortgage...food.......pistons? tuff call)
What do you think, can I smooth down the narf spots and still be OK? I spoke with my father-in-law who was a bike mechanic to the 'Stars' for years before moving to the midwest and he thinks I should be able to do it without damaging anything else.
At this point how much more harm can be done? OK, I suppose if I really hose it up I can, for sure, tank the valves but what am I going to do?
I think I'll try it while waiting for the dealer to call me back tomorrow to let me know what they think. I know what you're thinking, they'll tell me to replace them, but, I'm pretty good friends with a couple of the guys and they'll tell me what I really need to do.
I mean in all honesty if you are trying to do it on a budget than careful cleaning of all the affected surfaces may just get you by. Do your best to remove all the embedded fragments and you might be fine. Do try to figure out what that mangled piece of crap is that got in there though lol. It is bugging me.
Here's what I got...
The intake valve did get ever so slightly tweaked so that needs to be replaced. ($134) and also the valve guide needs to be replaced ($50 for part $50 to do it). All told it's going to be about $250 to get it fixed. Now I realize that I am apparently very lucky as to how all this happened and am thankful for it.
I really want to thank all of you for helping me out with this. You gave me the push to rip it apart until I found what was going on even though I've never torn apart a motor before. [clap]
Now I just have to aquire the funds to get it done. Since I'm not working, my budget is a bit tight. My wonderful wife (whom I love very much :-*) is also adjusting our budget to make it happen. She says she doesn't want me to be crabby all summer. How cool is that?
It will be a couple of weeks to have the valve guide repaired so when that happens and I get it all back together, I will let you know what it goes.
Again, thank you for your help!
And, I or anyone else I've shown, cannot figure out what that part is. I even sent a photo to the dealer and they have no idea either.