Ducati Monster Forum

Just feel like talking about racing and my general brain waves.

You know, I've been giving thought about the current landscape in MotoGP.  I was talking to the girlfriend last night about the level of competition and how Stoner and Rossi tend to clear off into the sunset these days and the apparent lack of talent on the rest of the grid from a racing/fighting stand point and it got me to thinking about the post 500cc days of MotoGP.

I started thinking about how good the racing was during the 990cc era compared to the 800's.  ( keep in mind this is post 500cc )  The Honda had a lot to do with it, being that a lot of talented riders were on the Honda, but in reality maybe the racing really wasn't all it was cracked up to be.  Rossi and Burgess both claim that they managed race wins during those days and at any given time, Rossi could make the move at the front and pull out victory, which is what we commonly witnessed.  So my theory is that really, it was no different than what we're seeing now, except it would have been a one man clear off into the distance instead of two if Rossi so had wished it.

Then came the move to Yamaha for Rossi, which was a new challenge on a bike that wasn't quite up to snuff with the Honda, but close enough.  Rossi imo then began to push harder and rode closer to his limits as a racer, but still managed victory.  So I really consider his time on the 990 Yamaha as the better racing because in most circumstances, he truly had to push that machine to be competitive, but the racing was still pretty close.

Which brings us to now.  I've never been a Stoner fan, but mostly due to his morbid demeanor, even in the face of race victory.  His bike never seems to work well... and there is always a problem!  It drives me up the wall that this kid just can't lighten up, so I refuse to become a fan.  However, I think Stoner is the first man to really be a true threat to Rossi's crown as best current rider ( not all time ).  Stoner still lacks the racecraft in my opinion whenever it does come down to head-to-head, but his ability to ride the wheels off the Ducati makes up for that.

Everyone seems to put Lorenzo/Pedro.. eh and /shrug I guess no one else into the discussion of great current riders, but over the past few years, there really is no argument.  GP is just a two horse race no matter any way you spin it.  I think its exciting, because Rossi is clearly pushing and riding his ass off 100% for possibly the first time in is career... every race ( even more than the Yamaha 990 years ).  Maybe the racing isn't good every week, but I like the challenge between these two.  The M1 is clearly a great motorcycle in all facets due to multiple people having success on the bike, but unlike the Honda days, Rossi doesn't have time to manage races anymore, so you can now see the talent differential to a much larger extent.  No one was pulling off like Stoner back in the 990 days so Rossi didn't have to race on the ragged edge like he does now.

I'm going to have to admit that Stoner is a hell of a talent, even though I can't stand the guy.  The Ducati is also a fantastic bike... but for whatever reason just built for one man.  I wanted to throw that out there, because I've been against calling the Ducati a great bike due to the fact everyone else bring up the rear on the thing... but I'm switching stance because of the man at the front.  Who cares if no one else can ride it.  Stoner is giving Rossi everything he has, and for that I think in some respects this is the best that GP has seen.  Not for the racing spectacle, but for what we're witnessing from the two men heads and above everyone else on the grid.

what in the sam hizzle are you on about?  he had a couple media moments last year, but overall he's nothing but complimentary about the bike and the team.


yep, big time.  but the 800 era hasn't required much, unfortunately.


yep, sometimes.  often.

in truth i'm a fan of them both.  i was a really big stoner supporter in '06.  he's not the racer that valentino is (who is?) but he's batshit fast and consistent.

i think the real problem with the 'racing' is the switch to 800s, not anyone on the grid.  and the new cost-cutting moves are only going to make it worse.

A year or 2 ago Kevin Cameron did his editorial about competitive GP racing and close finishes.  According to his expertise, the modern 990cc & 800cc racing is much closer and competitive than the "golden years", but yet fans still complain.  It is like a drug, a couple close years, then we expect the championship to always come down to the last race with a photo finish.

mitt

nah.  really the problem, so to speak, is WSBK.

Maybe its my focus on the negative with Stoner due to me never really being a big fan... it just always seems to me that no matter how big a win he has... many times he speaks of problems.  I'll chalk that up to selective hearing on my part, so I'll let you have that one! 


Definately.  The racing is best when a series sticks to the same design for a long period.  This allows even the non competitive teams to eventually catch up and provide quality machinery throughout.  While there are always advances, the longer a certain design sticks around, the more even the playing field.  The new cost cutting measures will definately shake things up again next year and set back the competitiveness of the series another few years.

Stoner is INSANELY fast!.....and, as stated, becoming very consistent.  However, I wouldn't put too much stock in the first round.  There are circuits that suit other bikes(Honda) and riders a lot better.  Stoner just owns Losail.

I did not like Rossi when I started following GP in '07, but his intelligence during the race, and fun loving demeanor have won me over.  He is the most complete rider you may ever see.  His input is directly responsible for the potentially dominating '09 R1 in WSBK.

I refuse to count Nicky out yet.  He rode impressively in Qatar while injured.  I think he will get faster as he gets more time on the bike after 3-4 rounds.  I just hope he can avoid the big, confidence shaking get offs while he is learning like Lorenzo experienced last year  [popcorn]

I have to admit, I am a big fan of Casey Stoner.  He impressed me in his rookie season with a crap bike and then moving to Ducati cemented it.  While I think Rossi is far and away the most complete rider, I did lose some respect for him when he whined about his tires and switched to Bridgestone.  That whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.  Granted, I am not a fan of Michelin after the US GP in 05 but to continually call out a company that has gone out of their way to support you is bad form.  Sure, it could have been the tires since he won last year but maybe, just maybe, Stoner was the better rider with the better bike that year.  Unfortunately, I think Rossi is so full of himself that that thought never crossed his mind.

you've gotta be kidding.

michelin royally make the beast with two backsed up in '07.  numerous times.  they, and every rider in the series still on michelins at the time, NEEDED vale to be that vocal about it. 

actually...they ALL needed to be vocal about it, but Val getting his and then Dani making the moves that he did in the way that he did...the only thing in question with other Michelin riders left at the time, I am betting, was the amount of sponsorship money involved and the contracts surrounding them....Michelin dropped the ball when they went away from their ability to formulate a midnite special tire the evening before raceday...and left the riders holding the bag with inferior equipment...it would infuriate any rider having to deal with that IMHO.

I've been a big fan of Rossi for a long time. I really didn't like Stoner until after Laguna last year. Well, I hated him after laguna because he whined like a girl. But, suddenly he shut the faucet off and just took it like a man and learned from it. Maybe his pr people told him to shut up or whatever, but he did. Then he just raced and didn't cry at all. That shows maturity and the ability to move past a situation and improve because of it. He hasn't said one bad thing about Vale since. I think he is starting to feel more at ease in the top spot and receiving less criticism about his riding vs equipment argument. He isn't so sensitive. Which has made him more easy going before and after races.  big difference in my opinion from a year or more ago. How would the average early twenty year old act in the same circumstances? Probably not as well.
    I'm a real Stoner fan now. Still like Rossi the best but Casey is exciting to watch. It's like watching an F-16 flying at 2 feet off the ground.  [evil]  Rossi is fun to watch when he is chasing Stoner but he is so smooth that you get the feeling he is going 60 mph all the time. I think Casey has the potential to win the championship at least a few more times if he continues to improve his racecraft not just his go fast skills. It's easier to run a race or qualifying line than a defensive one when your 2-3 second up on the #2 position. Very difficult having to catch and overtake Rossi when he is in front of you.
I think he can do it. I'm stickin around to see.
Either him or Rossi as champion this year would make me happy. Coin toss for me. [thumbsup]

....it's still very early in the season....  ;)

point well taken.......

that has been proven time and again. [thumbsup]

the same crap bike that rossi and hayden won championships on? ok....


forget rossi for a second. how was colin feeling about the french rubber?

 i'd prefer a championship with competition between multiple tire manufacturers, but michelin could no longer produce a product that could actually compete. quite simply, michelin lost their mojo (not just in motogp)...

Not going to Derby Derby but Derby has a very good point. Hehe.

maybe Dannyboy meant "crap front end"...  [cheeky]

that's interesting.   I didn't know those guys won on satellite Hondas.   Learn something new everyday.

maybe they were some small percentage point different but they were all still RC211Vs. 

Stoner was on a one bike team that was also new to MotoGP.  Seems to be a far cry from a factory ride but if you say so...

new to the premiere class.  and he got pole at the first event of 2006.

i'm not saying the LCR honda was a Repsol honda.  but that bike, that engine, was very mature motogp-wise.  both the gresini hondas did well that year, too.  incl elias beating rossi in portugal.

i'm not even going to get into trying to guesstimate the budget differences (vast) but it was still a RC211V, no matter how you cut it.  theoretically, especially at the beginning of the season, the two bikes were fairly equivalent.

plus, the factory bike that changed the most that year over the course of the season (Hayden's) usually changed in the wrong direction.

you're right... stoner didn't have to deal with the sabotage clutch that was in hayden's evo bike for the middle part of the season.

but seriously, the customer bikes are generally the same spec as the previous-year factory bikes. the factory bikes are just continuously developed throughout the season (again, see hayden's clutch debacle).

the rc211v (all years) was generally regarded as the best, most-developed, easiest to ride bike in the entire field.

To try and equate his time on the Honda with those experienced by Rossi or even Hayden's step child existence is ridiculous.  Trying to argue their bikes were equivalent is even more insane.  Hell the Factory Hondas that year weren't even the same.  The core bike and parts available to the established satellite teams were likewise different let alone what was left over to offer the new one bike team.   

Move on there is no winning that argument. 

If the argument is over the term "crap" then we can agree.   The RC211 is far from a crap bike.  In fact I can't think of another bike that would be better to use as a starting point to build around.

EDIT.   He got pole in Round 2 that year at .... you guessed it ... Qatar.  Jerez was first that year and Capirosi was on pole.

ah yeah, qatar was 2nd that year.  i think stoner got 6th or so in jerez, no?

can you show me where the major difference was in the '06 factory bike and the '06 satellite bike (at the beginning of the season) that would make it insane to compare them?  i'm sincerely interested.

to imply that it was so different from rossi's 2003 championship-winning rc211 (or gibernau's 2004 runner-up bike, or hayden/melandri's 2005 bikes) that stoner couldn't keep his upright is equally as silly.

as an aside, i haven't kept up with the specifics in the 4-stroke era, but honda's customer nsr500 program was that you leased the bike and a honda engineer from hrc for $1M per bike (and had to give the bike back when the season was over).

it's not like the guys working on these bike are completely clueless.

Is it true that Stoner had no suspension technician/engineer the year he crashed the Honda mercilessly?

2006 was actually a strong RC211 year.  5 of the top 9 were on it (Hayden -1st, Melandri - 4th, Pedrosa - 5th, Roberts - 6th, Stoner - 8th, Elias - 9th).  As far as the differences go the only thing I can think that we could look to would be the top recorded speeds per round.  Out of the first 5 races there was a difference of between 1 and 2 km/h between Hayden/Pedrosa and the other Honda riders with the exception of Turkey at which Melandri and Stoner went 1,2 and posted a top speed .4 km/h faster than Hayden/Pedrosa.  It's a small difference but then again in each of those races a top speed differential of less than .4 km/h was generally the difference between winning and being out of the top 5. 


LMAO

1.  I didn't say it was crap, the teams were clueless, nor blame the bike for his binning it 6 times that season. 

2.  You're the ones claiming he was on the same or comparable bike as 2 different Season champions.  I'll I've argued is how laughable that is.

As far as the differences go, tell you what lets make it easy.  Name one modern era racer in MotoGP who has won the championship on a Non-Factory bike.  If they're so similar there should be many (Edit from 1990 to present there have been NONE).  Too hard.  Ok how about counting the number of races won by non-Factory teams over the past 4 years.  I got money it's in single digits.  (EDIT 2005 - 2 - Melandri 2 wins; 2006 - 4 - Melandri 3 wins, Elias 1; 2007 - 0 -; 2008 - 0 -;  Total 6 wins in 4 seasons 5 of which were Melandri's).

Only the factory teams win races and championships but I'm sure that's only because of the huge disparity of talent involved.  The machines I'm sure are identical both mechanically and in support.  If only the Race Gods and Lady Luck would shine upon them.



LMAO.  Is it really a shock that young fast rookies push too hard and bin it?   Lorenzo in a similar rookie campaign binned it 4 times last year on a factory ride from a championship winning garage.  And yes it would be easy to argue he had more resources at his disposal and better support during his rookie campaign than was afforded Stoner -  I'm not sure what the point of such a pissing contest would be though so I don't want to go there.

Another note about how different the bikes were/are year to year etc....

the 2003 Repsol Honda of Rossi won at Mugello with a time of 43'28.008 and top speed of 166.520
the 2006 Repsol Honda of Hayden finished 3rd at Mugello with a time of 42'40.345 and top speed of 169.620 km/h

Rossi's 2003 time would have finished 14th at the 2006 race.

Who said anything about a pissing contest or Lorenzo?

I asked a question... about Stoner.

More like you made a statement.  Wasn't much of a question.

You're right though obviously the kid had no future.  He should have quit after 2006.  it's all been down hill since then.

I know this is slightly different but according to Australian Motorcycle News April 14 2009,"Tech Talk"
 the cost of going 250 GP racing on a Aprilia is $1.4million for a full spec (factory bike) RSA250 or $563000.00 for the lower spec LA250.
So assume that all factory's have the same pricing (approximately) I'm sure for that extra money if you didn't get something special you would be pissed. A satellite team is never going to win a championchip the best he can hope for is a top five.
I'm with cowboy on this one.
Don

Interesting OpEd read on the 2010 rookie rule and the Satellite v. Factory ride debate.

http://www.motogpmatters.com/opinion/2009/03/28/the_rookie_rule_a_paper_tiger.html (http://www.motogpmatters.com/opinion/2009/03/28/the_rookie_rule_a_paper_tiger.html)

How is what I said a statement?

WTF are you talking about?

Thats a good read.

earlier you called it insane to compare them. 

above, you've compared them.  and said they are close-or-better, using your measurement of top speed.

you is one crazy mofo then.

LMAO I'm a crazy mofo because you don't know what equal means?  Nice.

I said it was insane to equate them --  see part 1 below.  I didn't say it wasn't a good bike -- see part 2 below.  All I did was provide some data around a supposed serious question you asked supporting a position I'd already held.

The fact is the bikes are NOT the same nor are the parts availability, resources, funds and support between the Factory rides and the Satellites.


 

i never said they were the same.  i said that, in the beginning of the season, they were relatively comparable.

(http://rookery1.viary.com/storagev12/572000/572389_6e3e_625x625.jpg)

FACK dem boths.... I is more suited to battle both...I wins

No...

you're crazy because you don't understand punctuation.

There's only 2 ways to take your "question"

1.  You honestly believed a MotoGP team would not have a suspension specialist on their squad

or

2.  You were being facetious and taking a swipe at the kid.


Seeing as your intelligent enough to help found this place (thank you btw), I concluded you were taking a swipe at the kid which is why I compared his season to Lorenzo's in response to your question.  If you honestly think that Stoner ran his entire rookie season without a suspension tech on his team and would like an answer I will volunteer to search for the info that will confirm or deny that belief.

Why any of this got your panties in a bunch I'm not sure.  It could just be age and/or paranoia catching up to you.  Relax old man it'll be OK.

Conclude what you want.

Come call me old man to my face...I beg you.

You sir have a problem.

We're done.

really?  flexing your internet muscles at a tongue in cheek remark?   LOL.

dude I meant no offense but there's nothing there to get that worked up over.  I'm no spring chicken myself.

go for a ride, grab a beer, something, you're wound a little tight right now.

If you were being facetious you probably should have used a smiley.

I didn't.

Wonder why?

because your cranky.

so, meanwhile back at the ranch....Bobspapa is busy on his pocketbike racing Rossi and Stoner and afterwards having a contest of whom can say FAAACK the best!

 [moto] weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


fack

One a...
is all you got?

I'm late to the party.  I'll admit I haven't read the thread, but at a glance it looked like people were getting heated.  If so, I wanna play too.   ;D  <looks around>  Who do I get to call an ignorant dick?   [evil]

//pot stirring

You could start with me.

...and that's two whacks to the peepee for not doing your reading. ;D

You know, while we're in the debate about factory v. satellite.  Maybe the current landscape doesn't offer great opportunities to argue this... but lets rewind back to 2004.  Sete Gibernau essentially matched Rossi point for point during the 2004 season on a satellite bike that didn't get pledged factory support until 2005.  How can you point to much difference in the Hondas in that scenario.  Are you claiming Rossi won the 2004 championship because he had Yamaha factory support then?

Barros/Hayden isn't exactly the most formidable team for Repsol in 2004, but I promise you the bikes weren't so different that one was heads and above the other.

because it's insane to compare them at all.

but if you do decide to compare them (crazy person!), they are very close.  esp if you use something like top speed to measure.
 



;D

you should...

 [bang] [bang] [bang]

"compare" isn't the same as "equate".  saying it a bunch over and over doesn't change that. 

maybe you should read it again to...   ;D

and yes virginia, if you think a factory ride and satellite ride are equal then you are insane, crazy, howlin at the moon, a few cards short of a full deck, etc...

Over the past 25 years, yes even back when privateers were more prevalent, the factory ride won the championship.

dude.  pay more attention to the smiley.


and for the millionth time i never used the word equal.  all i ever said was that they were relatively comparable.  at the beginning of the season only.  which is a true statement.  or was in 2006.

maybe you're jumping up and down so much cuz i got ya.   [cheeky]

I'm with you on the smiley which is why I used one too.  we just don't have a smiling head banger.

I only got in on this thread when someone jumped on the crap bike comment and then said he was on the SAME bike as Hayden and Rossi.  Even then it was 2 wiseass posts pointing out a one off satellite bike v. 2 championship factory bikes.

No argument comparing them hell the most interesting thing about this has been discovering the differences -- because they are different.  The number I found most interesting is the times from Mugello for Rossi in 2003 and then where it would have placed in in the 2006 race.   Gives the year to year development of the bikes new perspective.

And it's average speed not flat out top speed on the stats.   over the course of a race a single km/h is a huge difference in where they'll place.

cheers

Cowboy
thought Id chime in and let you know that what you are saying makes complete sense to me. [thumbsup]
Don

the issue i take with your position is that it's an absolute.

"the bikes used by the satellite teams are never equal to the factory bikes.

that's just not always true. aside from gm2's argument about the parity between the factory/customer bikes at the beginning of the season, hrc often doles out factory-level equipment to select riders. both stoner and melandri got hrc bikes in the latter half of the 2006 season, iirc.



fixed it for ya. i'd even argue that you could not change the bikes year to year and still see significant drops in laptimes. don't forget, for the most part, these bikes were/are traction limited. they already had more power then they knew what to do with.

elias, on a privateer team, is on a factory-spec rc212 right now.

there is ZERO chance that the "factory Spec" bikes being doled out are the same as the Repsol Hondas, period. 

You can tell me how close they are (comprable), you can talk about how similar they are (comprable), what you can't talk about is a single Satellite champion, what you can't point to is a string of races where the factory bike was beaten by the Satellite bike (less than 10 in the past 4 years with ALL of those coming in 2005, 2006.) what you can't show is that they are equal.

the fact is the Factory team in this case Honda Repsol rides better equipment than the Satellite Honda teams, period.  The results say that is more true today than at any other time in the past 25 years.  The OP-Ed article articulates why, why that is a concern and discusses some ways GP is looking to solve that.

this is not to say they are given "crap".  they are given competitive bikes; just bikes that are a less than the repsol's.

so what, specifically, was different between the bike pedrosa had in 2006 and the bikes that stoner and melandri were given in the latter half of the season?

fwiw, if there is such a disparity in the satellite bikes, how do you account for those ~10 wins?

you better get on the phone to fausto gresini, pronto!

seriously: elias DOES have a factory-spec machine right now.  it was part of the new gresini contract.  i don't know whether or not he'll continue to get factory dev/support throughout the year, but he does have an '09 factory spec rc212v at the moment.

look it up. 


you're absolutely right.  and i've never tried to argue any of those points.


you've just made my same point, again.

they are given competitive, comparable bikes.  usually the previous year's end of season machine.  then it does not get the same new season parts/dev or during-the-season parts and dev.  unless it's one of those unusual cases where that does happen mid-season, as derby pointed out.

1.  Competitive and Comprable does not mean they are the SAME or even the Same Spec.   Even Elias is getting a bike from the Factory that is LESS than what is in the paddock of Pedrosa and Dovi.  Practice and Qualy times will prove that this weekend.

You guys act like this is some classroom or lab hypothesis.  This is racing fellas.  The proof IS in the pudding.  If we want to see if the bikes are the same then all we need to do is check the practice, qualy and race log books.  Results are everything.

This has got interesting enough that i'll even put a 20.00 side bet on it.  Honda, Yamaha, Ducati teams - If a satellite rider on one of those manufacturers wins a single race this year I'll pay up.

that may or may not be the case... unless you work for hrc, how do you really know?

the way i see it, hrc has nothing to lose from giving another racer a 10/10ths bike. it's a great way to measure a racer against a known quantity (their factory racer on the same equipment) without having to play the "what if we had given him the good tc or the good frame or the good swingarm" game.


i'm not putting $20 on anybody beating rossi or stoner. make that "beats a factory rider on the same make" and you've got a bet.

LOL. If I could guarantee both Factory rides would finish a race I would go there. 

To win the bet the highest placing rider on a given bike must be a satellite. 

For instance,  Toseland will have to place higher than Rossi AND Lorenzo, Elias higher than Pedro AND Dovi, any of the Ducs higher than Casey AND Nicky.

If it weren't for the Duc chewing up anyone not named Stoner I'd have bet there'd be no satellite riders in the top 6 at the end of season rankings but I'm not convinced Nicky is going to get up to speed fast enough to catch Toseland, Edwards etc. ( edit as I've said they ARE competitive bikes NOT crap).

I already pointed this out, but what about Sete Gibernau in 2003 and 2004?  He finished ahead of Rossi a few times in 2003 on a satellite bike of the same make, and then in 2004 he pretty much spent half the season finishing in front of the Repsol's and beat Rossi a few times too.

The biggest advantage the factory teams have is their riders.  Yeah some development parts are nice, but in general, the factory teams can and do pay the best riders to mount their bikes.  If Rossi and Burgess went to Tech-3 and Edwards back to the factory team, I promise you Tech-3 is coming out on top of Edwards and Lorenzo.  Rider talent is the bigger factor.  Same would go for Stoner if you tossed him on the Pramac Ducati.  He'd still be up front.

 [popcorn]

http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146146/1/hondas_rc211v_-_motogps_best_bike.html (http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146146/1/hondas_rc211v_-_motogps_best_bike.html)

OK guys,

Both riders are good, each has it's own deeds done good and bad. Michelin still manufactures great to excellent tyres[2costly for me]. Don't forget Dunlop left MotoGP also[but I use them on my bike]

Casey rides the wheels of that GP7/8/9 whichever he's riding. He was the first guy on the switch to 800cc that lifted the rear on the back straight in China...According to ESPN's argentine MotoGP commentators.

Now, I don't get to see the races since, ESPN decided that my country has no $$$ potencial for these transmission, so I'm stuck watching the MotoGP LIVE TIMMING screen for hours without end, playing a VHS on the background to hear the engines...is that funny???

So all of you, stop fighting, we're here to discuss, in a friendly way, to learn from the old and why not, the new, to make friends in different places[for future rides]...

Who's the best?.........

Remember when, NO ELECTRONICS, NO TRACTION CONTROL, NO BRAKE ADJUSTING, NO HELMETS LIKE TODAY'S, NO FULL LEATHERS LIKE TODAY'S, NO EQUIPMENT LIKE TODAY...and let's not talk bout the umbrella girls, OK?
Sit back and enjoy the races YOU CAN WATCH on TV!!!

Now that's just one step too far mister!

you lost me there.

What I meant was : That the girls are getting better looking every year and less clothes  ;) ...

Sorry if I said something to ofend, not my intention.

I've riden bikes shod with Michelin and compared to mine, "same bike" different tyres, mine Dunlop D220, friend's Miichelin Road Pilot, both OEM sized, I could feel the grip of the Michelin's letting me go 'a bit faster' than on my bike with the Dunlop's, but, same day, now raining, my bike had a slight advantage...

Just saying...

And if I offended, SORRY

he's not offended, he just hates anything that isn't dunlop.  ;D

Don't worry about offending me.  I'm just yankin' on your chain. I enjoy good arguments.  Lots of points of view and usually we learn stuff.   [thumbsup]

Er, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure Derby and gm2's ears just perked up), but Tech 3 Yamaha didn't get the current generation of engine until the 4th or 5th race last year. Toseland qualified 2nd at Qatar, but during the actual race the 15-20 kph advantage that the factory Yamaha's had over the Tech 3's in the straights ate he and Edward's alive.

i'd have to go back and check on last year, but this year they're supposed to have the same stuff as the fiat team from the start.

that was the plan anyway

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74984 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74984)

too bad the tech 3 bikes are so absolutely different from the fiat bikes  [cheeky]