I have a 2007 S2R 1000
A few weeks ago I finally got the rear brake cylinder replaced. I ordered the standard 11mm brembo cylinder from here: http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3007 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3007)
I had a non-ducati dealer, but reputable shop with experience in Ducatis install it for me. The brakes felt great with normal stopping power and good pedal feel.
Yesterday I was riding with some friends in the city and something rather catastrophic happened. I was going about 20 mph and felt something funny with the rear brake as I was coming to a stop. We started off again and it felt ok, then stopping at the next stop sign I heard a bang from the rear wheel. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, so hopefully the following pictures help.
(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_wOZuAIM4OIA/SetYJzTaiuI/AAAAAAAABug/vKPKefKvwcE/s400/BrokenBrakes%202009-04-18%2002-58-35.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_wOZuAIM4OIA/SetYKK36owI/AAAAAAAABuo/mZ2oLjsAJ9o/s400/BrokenBrakes%202009-04-18%2003-00-52.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_wOZuAIM4OIA/SetYKP8uj2I/AAAAAAAABuw/tzReMlOgMOQ/s400/BrokenBrakes%202009-04-18%2003-01-41.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_wOZuAIM4OIA/SetYKGeUJKI/AAAAAAAABu4/5j72HfisHhw/s400/BrokenBrakes%202009-04-18%2003-02-27.jpg)
Basically it looks like where the brake line attaches to the rear caliper shot off with enough force to puncture the wheel. The silver line on the inside of the wheel seems to be from where it hit while the wheel was moving. It isn't just like the line came off, the whole metal fitting is broken off. It is rather crazy.
So, has anyone seen something like this before? Could this be from not properly installing the rear master cylinder?
I'm having the bike towed to a dealer on Monday, any advice in dealing with them? Anyone know where to pick up good 10 spoke black forged Marchesini rear wheel? Thanks.
The shop had to take the rear caliper off to bleed the system after replacing the master. They apparently didn't tighten the caliper bolts (you can see one missing in the photo). This caused the caliper to rotate to the point where the banjo fitting hit the wheel and snapped off. It looks like your reputable shop owes you a lot of money.
Poor wheel. :'(
Quote from: DarkStaR on April 19, 2009, 10:33:03 AM
Poor wheel. :'(
Thanks for putting a smile on my face. I agree. My poor wheel.
Quote from: silentbob on April 19, 2009, 10:29:28 AM
The shop had to take the rear caliper off to bleed the system after replacing the master. They apparently didn't tighten the caliper bolts (you can see one missing in the photo). This caused the caliper to rotate to the point where the banjo fitting hit the wheel and snapped off. It looks like your reputable shop owes you a lot of money.
+1
mitt
it does seem that minus that bolt, once you apply brakes, the force caused the caliper to pivot and slam the crap out of the rim. Bolts not torqued?
Quote from: silentbob on April 19, 2009, 10:29:28 AM
The shop had to take the rear caliper off to bleed the system after replacing the master. They apparently didn't tighten the caliper bolts (you can see one missing in the photo). This caused the caliper to rotate to the point where the banjo fitting hit the wheel and snapped off. It looks like your reputable shop owes you a lot of money.
+2! that looks to totally be a workmanship issue.
Someone's going to get yelled at.
Brakes are one of those things that can't be wrong. Must work, must be 100%
When my shop was running, I personally torqued every fastener that had to deal with brakes, no exceptions. I parked painted each one as well. The 4 guys that worked for me thought I was nuts, but the fact that I caught 2 fasteners finger tight was enough for me to know I was doing the right thing.
Glad you are OK, now call the shop, speak to someone in charge, and calmly explain they almost killed you. [drink]
wow! got to say that its a good thing that the wrecked rim is the only issue. That could have been way worse.
You figure when you have a shop do something it should be done right... I had a buddy that had had engine work done and one day soon after he was driving around and noticed a knocking noise. He couldnt place where the sound was coming so he was driving around trying to diagnose what the hell it was. The entire time he thought it was the engine. As he was pulling in his driveway his left front tire popped off the truck and went rolling down the street as the truck came to a grinding halt in the drive way. Needless to say he had his tires done along with the engine work but the thought of professional not torquing lug nuts never crossed his mind.
Quote from: TAftonomos on April 19, 2009, 02:28:06 PM
When my shop was running, I personally torqued every fastener that had to deal with brakes, no exceptions. I parked painted each one as well. The 4 guys that worked for me thought I was nuts, but the fact that I caught 2 fasteners finger tight was enough for me to know I was doing the right thing.
I think you _far_ from being "nuts" with that attitude.
In the time I've had my Monster, I've done (guestimated based on milage) 20 or so tire changes. That's prewtty much the only time anyone other than me has the opportunity to screw up with my brakes.
It's happened twice. Both times by "reputable" workshops (two different ones). The first one immediately blamed me, even though I hadn't been gone from the shop for 5 minutes.
So my personal experience seems to indicate mechanics screw up brakes around 10% of the time. If it were _my_ business reputation at stake, I'd also insist on double checking every brake fastener too.
I have noticed one of the places I buy tires from always have the workshop guys crosscheck each others work on tire changes - I guys their boss worked out it's worthwhile too...
big
It all depends on who is doing the work at the shop. From what I've seen around here, a lot of the mechanics that work in the BIG 4 shops are about 18 years old. Same with the parts guys. Now I realize that they aren't born with the mechanic knowledge already installed on their harddrive, and that they have to learn somewhere, but what ever happened to the journeyman mechanics that used to work in the motorcycle shops? You know, the guys that went racing on weekends, knew how to work on bikes, not just replace parts, the tuners, hot shot wrenches, there used to be a lot of them, that you could trust to do the job right, and not screw you in the process.
I hope those guys do you right and replace your stuff. If I were you, I'd get it home after they are done, and go through and loctite and torque everything they touched.
Thanks for the replies. It does very much appear to be a workmanship issue. The real test of this shop is now how they handle the situation.
A friend with a truck came by yesterday and we got the bike back up to the shop. They are closed Monday, so I will hear from them on Tuesday after they see what happened. Hopefully they take responsibility and make it right quickly.
It was only later, after a few beers, that my friends and I realized how much worse that would have been if we had been on the highway or on a back road somewhere. We were heading back into the city to drop some stuff off before heading out for a long ride in the country, so I definitely got lucky in that respect.
As I said, on Tuesday I'll get to see if this shop is really worth anything, especially given that my girlfriend was going to take her Monster in this week for its 6k and a bunch of other work.
Quote from: corndog67 on April 19, 2009, 09:36:46 PM
It all depends on who is doing the work at the shop. From what I've seen around here, a lot of the mechanics that work in the BIG 4 shops are about 18 years old. Same with the parts guys. Now I realize that they aren't born with the mechanic knowledge already installed on their harddrive, and that they have to learn somewhere, but what ever happened to the journeyman mechanics that used to work in the motorcycle shops? You know, the guys that went racing on weekends, knew how to work on bikes, not just replace parts, the tuners, hot shot wrenches, there used to be a lot of them, that you could trust to do the job right, and not screw you in the process.
I hope those guys do you right and replace your stuff. If I were you, I'd get it home after they are done, and go through and loctite and torque everything they touched.
The journeymen grow up and start families.
They get tired of making a non living wage which is too common in the moto industry.
And we get the 18 year olds working on our bikes at the dealer.
I know the owner of the shop in question here that did the work and I know he'll make it right. Sorry you had to go through this in the meantime though.
The problem in general here is the fact that shop owners/managers would never get anything done if they had to double check every bike after it was worked on by any and all of it's techs/wrenches...hell, to a small degree, it would be an insult to the tech/wrench in a measure of inability to trust them and their workmanship and slap them in the face by doing so. So sometimes they have to trust that they are doing the right thing at their workbench. In the meantime, this tech will end up probably paying for it all in the end, even though the shop will take care of the intial expendature in making sure the bike is repaired properly and returned to the customer in the best possible circumstance.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 20, 2009, 04:12:44 AM
The journeymen grow up and start families.
They get tired of making a non living wage which is too common in the moto industry.
And we get the 18 year olds working on our bikes at the dealer.
Who pays the owners "living wage" during the slow Winter days when he's struggling to keep the guys on board? [roll]
Ive seen very competent 18 year old bike techs that can rebuild a brake plus. Unfortunately there are too many entitled types that feel they deserve 15-20 per hour without making their bones.... A "non living wage" drives one to learn, to hustle and be reliable, hence making themselves more marketable. [thumbsup]
note to self.
re-torque rear caliper bolts next time in garage.
i bet he accidently tightened the SMALLER bolts that hold the caliper together.
I did that the first time i had mine off when i was torquing them. luckily they didn't back out completely before i got home that night...
Got a call from the owner of the shop today. Even though they are closed he pulled the bike in out of the rain. Either the owner or the service manager is going to call me back tomorrow after they take a look at it. It was a very nice message, gives me a lot of faith that it will all be handled properly.
Alex is a good guy as is Jeremy. Both extremely conscientious and I'm sure they will do everything to make things right. This was a good lesson for not only the parties directly involved but I think everyone who has read this. Thanks for keeping us posted! Ill be retorquing my shizzle in the next couple of rainy days.
Quote from: zooom on April 20, 2009, 04:15:20 AM
snip....
So sometimes they have to trust that they are doing the right thing at their workbench. In the meantime, this tech will end up probably paying for it all in the end, even though the shop will take care of the intial expendature in making sure the bike is repaired properly and returned to the customer in the best possible circumstance.
While I agree that an owner/manager has to have 100% trust in his/her employees, this type of thing is one with zero room for error. People come in to work tired, hungry, preoccupied, or hungover and they're going to make mistakes. Double checking is THE only way to ensure that something like this doesn't happen to someone in a much more serious (or fatal) circumstance. If I'm paying someone $80 an hour to do something, they can take an extra 6 minutes at the end of a job to retouch every fastener that they just worked on. If the guys who change oil at Walmart give their tire changes a second look, so can any reputable shop.
/rant
It sounds like the guy's you're working with here have a pretty good attitude towards their customers, good luck with the whole thing.
Quote from: rgramjet on April 20, 2009, 07:05:29 AM
Who pays the owners "living wage" during the slow Winter days when he's struggling to keep the guys on board? [roll]
Ive seen very competent 18 year old bike techs that can rebuild a brake plus. Unfortunately there are too many entitled types that feel they deserve 15-20 per hour without making their bones.... A "non living wage" drives one to learn, to hustle and be reliablebecome a union member, hence making themselves more marketable. [thumbsup]
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: Jarvicious on April 20, 2009, 08:19:48 PM
While I agree that an owner/manager has to have 100% trust in his/her employees, this type of thing is one with zero room for error. People come in to work tired, hungry, preoccupied, or hungover and they're going to make mistakes. Double checking is THE only way to ensure that something like this doesn't happen to someone in a much more serious (or fatal) circumstance. If I'm paying someone $80 an hour to do something, they can take an extra 6 minutes at the end of a job to retouch every fastener that they just worked on. If the guys who change oil at Walmart give their tire changes a second look, so can any reputable shop.
/rant
It sounds like the guy's you're working with here have a pretty good attitude towards their customers, good luck with the whole thing.
while I agree with you on a person rechecking his own work, the comment was in having an owner or manager recheck his work for him...the realm of responsibilities and duties of a manager aren't busy enough already? now you want them to recheck every thing that goes out the door? they'll never get anything done that way. it is inefficient to do so in that way.
Got it backwards Bro, a Living Wage handed over to an unskilled worker creates complacency.
At my shop, Ive got a kid that sweeps the floor and cleans up, scuffs and sands wood pieces. Told him he will get a $2 raise when he gets his license. He can then haul trash and pick up materials and make deliveries. Ill probably throw a couple more $$ at him once he gets to be proficient with a dovetail jig. My point is an 18 year old has to start somewhere and aspire to reach the next step.
Keep them AWAY from those Unions!!
Quote from: rgramjet on April 21, 2009, 04:27:09 AM
Got it backwards Bro, a Living Wage handed over to an unskilled worker creates complacency.
At my shop, Ive got a kid that sweeps the floor and cleans up, scuffs and sands wood pieces. Told him he will get a $2 raise when he gets his license. He can then haul trash and pick up materials and make deliveries. Ill probably throw a couple more $$ at him once he gets to be proficient with a dovetail jig. My point is an 18 year old has to start somewhere and aspire to reach the next step.
Keep them AWAY from those Unions!!
You're missing my point.
I'm talking about the
maximum wage a
skilled tech can make. The 'journeyman' that was originally mentioned.
Not what a kid that scuffs parts gets.
If you had more first hand knowledge of the moto industry you'd know that techs make shit money for the most part.
That's why you see very few guys that stay with it...and the shop owners know that there will be a line of 18 year olds with no experience willing to work for short money to fill the spot.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 21, 2009, 04:39:27 AM
You're missing my point.
I'm talking about the maximum wage a skilled tech can make. The 'journeyman' that was originally mentioned.
Not what a kid that scuffs parts gets.
If you had more first hand knowledge of the moto industry you'd know that techs make shit money for the most part.
That's why you see very few guys that stay with it...and the shop owners know that there will be a line of 18 year olds with no experience willing to work for short money to fill the spot.
No different from any other seasonal business....
Define "shit money"; less than a school teacher? Whats the max a moto tech can make? Seriously, I dont know.
One thing I do know is the shop owner in mentioned above used to work for a local "big shop" and made his bones through amazing customer service and learning everything he could. Through hard work and risk, he now owns a sizeable shop.
Whats the "Max" that he can make?
Quote from: rgramjet on April 21, 2009, 04:59:00 AM
No different from any other seasonal business....
Define "shit money"; less than a school teacher? Whats the max a moto tech can make? Seriously, I dont know.
One thing I do know is the shop owner in mentioned above used to work for a local "big shop" and made his bones through amazing customer service and learning everything he could. Through hard work and risk, he now owns a sizeable shop.
Whats the "Max" that he can make?
You'll never see a moto tech making what car techs do. I don't buy the seasonal argument because it's not seasonal everywhere, and many powersports shops have lines for every season.
In my area $20/hr max....and that's the lead guy or manager. It's probably more in larger markets...I'm not there.
Car guys are making double or more in the southern towns, and that's with some benefits. I don't know of any moto shops with a group health plan regardless of funding.
There's only room for so many shops, and not every good tech is a good business man even if he does have the guts to try it.
I'm not disputing your point that everyone has to start at the bottom...I did at 9 years old sweeping floors and greasing trucks...I just think we, and I mean we as consumers, shouldn't cap the top.
I think we do that by whining about the cost of repairs.
edit:
We should probably quit jacking the thread. :P We can discuss this further by pm if you want.
That was quite a thread-jack there gentlemen [roll].
An update.
I spoke with the owner today and he is going above and beyond to make this right. The wheels I had on the bike are apparently exceedingly difficult to find and no one seems to have one and won't be getting any for months. He is taking some extra steps to ensure that my wheels match and everything is how I want it and the bike is back in my hands as quickly as is reasonable. I'm incredibly impressed with how he has handled everything and won't hesitate to take my bike back there in the future.
Good to hear!
Same thing happened to me - w/o wheel grooving. Didn't even hear the the bolt leave. Luckily the rear brake was in bi-annual the down phase, noticed it when I went to bleed.
Been doing my own brake work for 27 years, guess you're bound to miss one eventually.
Luckily Ave hardware stocks Stainless bolts.
Quote from: FastAndLight on April 21, 2009, 02:40:14 PM
That was quite a thread-jack there gentlemen [roll].
Anytime I can corrupt, and enlighten DP, is a good time in my book!
Sorry about the jack!
;D
Quote from: FastAndLight on April 21, 2009, 02:40:14 PM
He is taking some extra steps to ensure that my wheels match
What do you mean by that? Is he attempting to repair the wheel or find you a used one of the same type? It might be time to call MotoWheels and order up a set of forged 10 spokes. You can get those for the price of the cast Marchesini wheels from Ducati. The shop buys the rear, you buy the front and they cover all the labor.
See the avatar? Ask yourself next time you are flying would you rather have a govt employee that is paid just enough to survive, or someone happy at his job and enjoying life guiding your cluelss pilot around the sky [thumbsup]
Unions have their place. Air Traffic is one of those places.
I had the axle drop out of one side of the swingarm at about 30mph on a monster 620 rental in france. Coincidentally the bike had brand new tires with the label still on. Rental shop owner/ mechanic forgot to tighten nut :-\
mitt
Quote from: silentbob on April 21, 2009, 04:08:44 PM
What do you mean by that? Is he attempting to repair the wheel or find you a used one of the same type? It might be time to call MotoWheels and order up a set of forged 10 spokes. You can get those for the price of the cast Marchesini wheels from Ducati. The shop buys the rear, you buy the front and they cover all the labor.
+1 [thumbsup] Make some Lemonade!
Wheel for sale here: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=21903.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=21903.0)
Quote from: silentbob on April 21, 2009, 04:08:44 PM
What do you mean by that? Is he attempting to repair the wheel or find you a used one of the same type? It might be time to call MotoWheels and order up a set of forged 10 spokes. You can get those for the price of the cast Marchesini wheels from Ducati. The shop buys the rear, you buy the front and they cover all the labor.
The shop is taking care of everything to make sure my wheels match. There are no rears that match in the country right now. Apparently it will be months before the factory ships any more over here. My wheels were the forged satin black Marchesini 10 spokes. Instead, I'm moving to the identical wheels, but in gloss black. The shop is paying for everything, as I've said, they are going above and beyond to make this right.
Quote from: mitt on April 21, 2009, 05:11:16 PM
I had the axle drop out of one side of the swingarm at about 30mph on a monster 620 rental in france. Coincidentally the bike had brand new tires with the label still on. Rental shop owner/ mechanic forgot to tighten nut :-\
That is ridiculous. Were you ok? Did the shop apologize for almost killing you?
Quote from: b. on April 22, 2009, 02:45:53 PM
Wheel for sale here: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=21903.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=21903.0)
Thanks for the link, but the shop is on top of this.
Great news! [beer]
So far, this has almost restored my faith in mankind.
I'm glad to hear this appears to be working out and I can keep saying nice things about RAM Cycles. [thumbsup]