Ever since I started having fuel issues about 6 months ago I haven't quite had it fully licked. First it was the fuel pump, then 3 months later it was a fuel filter. The bike ran well enough after that but now I'm getting more fuel issues so I've got a few questions.
First, what's the part number of a clear non-oem fuel filter I can swap in? Also, does it make sense to need a new fuel filter after only 3-4 months?
Second, how do you go about cleaning out rust in a tank. I'm thinking I might have dirt/rust in the tank (I think it's the original) and I'd like to clean it out now to try and stop me from eating up fuel filters.
Third, can air flow cause fuel issues? I've been noticing that my bike seems to lose power when I hit heavy head wind and acts like it's out of gas.
Thanks.
edit: Problem solved on pg3 I think. [thumbsup]
Hmm I doubt you need a new fuel filter already.
A little info would help though. What makes you think its a fuel problem?
What mods have you done? What exactly are the symptoms you are having?
Where are the vent lines for the diaphragms routed?
Well, today I went for a ride with some friends. 50mi on the freeway at 80mph, no problem. Hit the twisties for about 50mi with periodic stops, no problems. Then on the way home after eating some lunch and 40mi down the freeway the bike started acting like it was out of gas and I lost power and eventually if I gave it gas it would die. Pretty much the same problem I had back when I replaced my fuel pump and my fuel filter last time. So, same as last time after I sputtered out and died on the shoulder of the highway it would start up again after I sat for a minute or so. I managed to limp another 10mi down the freeway with it dying out 2 or 3 times and luckily on the last time it died out I happened to be getting off the freeway. It didn't want to start up right away so I popped open the gas cap and then after sitting for a minute or so it started up and I did some surface riding. Seemed to be going fine but then, oddly enough, same as last time it died trying to take off from a stop light 2 blocks from home. It wouldn't start up so pushed it 2 blocks home.
Not sure if it's of note, but by the time the bike died out the last time the bike was getting extremely hot. Sitting at a light it would cook the inside of my legs and the bottom of the tank got pretty damn hot too.
I've got a strong suspicion that there is rust or something in the tank blocking fuel flow, hence the question regarding cleaning a tank.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 19, 2009, 03:09:51 PM
Where are the vent lines for the diaphragms routed?
mmm... down the right side next to the starter cable? I think. I'm not sure what the vent lines for the diaphragms are.
Quote from: erkishhorde on April 19, 2009, 03:18:19 PM
mmm... down the right side next to the starter cable? I think. I'm not sure what the vent lines for the diaphragms are.
You really need to remove the airbox to see them, but there are some 5/16"...ish id hoses that are connected to the tops of the carbs.
Originally they went to the pods on either side of the frame.
If the hoses aren't located in still air hoigh speed performance can be affected.
I think the hoses you're talking about are the float bowl drain hoses.
Your symptoms make me think its a jetting issue.
How many miles are on your bike and when were the carbs last went through?
Before I had my carbs went through and my bike tuned, it was running pretty rich and on really hot days when I came to a stop to wait for a light it would sound like it was gonna die. (rpms dropped to next to nothing and it would stumble a bit) After I had it tuned, my tuner showed me the old emulsion tubes and you could see they were worn and oval'd pretty bad.
Hope you can get that problem nailed down, it sounds extremely frustrating... [bang]
Quote from: ducpainter on April 19, 2009, 03:23:58 PM
You really need to remove the airbox to see them, but there are some 5/16"...ish id hoses that are connected to the tops of the carbs.
Originally they went to the pods on either side of the frame.
If the hoses aren't located in still air hoigh speed performance can be affected.
I think the hoses you're talking about are the float bowl drain hoses.
Ah, they're still routed into their little grey pods. I haven't gotten around to removing those pods but I eventually will.
Quote from: Stangman on April 19, 2009, 04:03:50 PM
Your symptoms make me think its a jetting issue.
How many miles are on your bike and when were the carbs last went through?
Before I had my carbs went through and my bike tuned, it was running pretty rich and on really hot days when I came to a stop to wait for a light it would sound like it was gonna die. (rpms dropped to next to nothing and it would stumble a bit) After I had it tuned, my tuner showed me the old emulsion tubes and you could see they were worn and oval'd pretty bad.
Hope you can get that problem nailed down, it sounds extremely frustrating... [bang]
Mmm... Haven't looked at the carbs since I bought the bike 5 years ago. Hmmm...
What leads you to believe the tank is rusting on the inside? Are the fuel filters brown in color?
Some of your symptoms indicate you may be on the right track there... For as long as I've known you and that '95 M900, they've both been in CA....near the ocean. It's entirely possible. Get a small mirror and a flash-light and look into your tank trying to see against the walls (will likely be difficult and won't be albe to see shit). But, check it out anyways and post up what you find or if your fuel filter is brown again...
You may as well do the POR-15 process if you think it's related to a rusty tank.
If you have large rust flakes blocking the tank outlet, which is very possible, it could explain your symptoms,
You can get a look inside a carbie tank with a mirror and a flashlight through the sender hole...
not a great look, but you can get an idea of the condition of the tank.
edit...Stu beat me to it.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on April 19, 2009, 05:42:37 PM
What leads you to believe the tank is rusting on the inside? Are the fuel filters brown in color?
Some of your symptoms indicate you may be on the right track there... For as long as I've known you and that '95 M900, they've both been in CA....near the ocean. It's entirely possible. Get a small mirror and a flash-light and look into your tank trying to see against the walls (will likely be difficult and won't be albe to see shit). But, check it out anyways and post up what you find or if your fuel filter is brown again...
That's the odd thing. When I took the first fuel filter off it didn't look that bad to me. Looked only slightly dark in overall color than the new filter I got. ( I went with another oem filter.) I don't like how I can't actually see the filter in the OEM stuff so I can't see if it's actually clogged. :-\ I'll see about getting a mirror and seeing what I can see.
Another thing that leads me to believe that it might be something in the tank is that I always happen to have these problems up when I've about 90mi on the clock. That's only about a 1/4 tank or less left so there's likely to be a higher concentration of whatever is floating in there.
Check the fuel line that goes from the fuel pump to the carbs also. Over time it can get soft and collapse when hot.
Got a chance to try and look inside the tank. Can't see much of anything at all. There is either a bit of rust or the remnants of a sticker a little bit "back" from the from the opening on the bottom of the tank if you're sitting on the bike. There's small amounts of rust around the top opening as well. Can't tell much other than that.
I raised the tank to check my fuel line again. It was ever so slightly resting on the valve cover and I could see a bit of shiny on the hose from where it touched. I adjusted it so that it doesn't touch again. Hopefully it'll stay this time. I'm wondering if the small amount of contact that it made could have caused vapor lock when the engine got really hot. I'll take it out for an hour or two tomorrow when it's hot and see if I get any fuel issues again.
Got a chance for a test ride today and it was a no go. :-\ Surface street riding to do errands was fine with no problems and after I dropped everything off I went for a 55mi scoot up the freeway. That went well enough and I was hoping that I wouldn't run into any problems but after I stopped for about 20 minutes and started heading home on the freeway I noticed that I was loosing power again so I decided to call it quits and go back to my parent's place.
I seem to recall someone saying that the fuel pump can overheat and stop working. Well, when I looked at it the fuel pump is very hot to the touch. The frame is also pretty hot but not as much (larger mass, I know). How do you keep the fuel pump from getting so hot?
I also found that my vent hose for the tank got disconnected some how but I don't think that matters. The hose was surprisingly hot though considering that it was just sitting there not attached to anything. Must have been heat transfer from the frame.
Stangman mentioned carbs and jetting. How would the carbs be causing this issue?
It seems to be only occurring when the bike is hot. I think it just seemed to be related to fuel level at first due to the distances that I ride and the spacing of my breaks.
Just a suggestion but try replacing the vacuum petcock with a mechanical one. I just went to a moto bone yard and got one off an old bike and used that. Maybe the one you have is intermittently sticking. Replace all fuel line if you have never done that. These are some cheapo suggestions to eliminate possibles.
Had a fuelpump on mine hat worked about 45 mins, then I could only apply 2-3 mm throttle or it died.
Problem gone w new pump. Guess worn diaphragms in it.
When the bike is running well, does it seem to pull just fine at any RPM or do you have issues at particular throttle openings? If it's fine at all RPMs, then your problem is fuel delivery and not jetting.
There's a Polaris re-build kit for the old pump that's under $20 IIRC so that's a cheap fix but it would just be a matter of finding a rebuild kit.
+1 to replacing the fuel lines if you've never done so and it's not a bad idea on the vacuum pet-cock either although my own luck w/vacuum petcocks has been stellar...
So where can I get hose for the fuel lines? I doubt just any old hose from home depot will work, will it? After looking at it I was considering getting some longer line so that I can move the fuel pump a little bit so that it doesn't touch anything except it's 2 mounting points even though I don't think that will solve the problem it will look a lot better.
What's a vacuum petcock? I've got an old fashioned fuel petcock between the tank and the fuel pump.
I just replaced the fuel pump half a year ago with this guy from CA-cycleworks.
(http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/img/sq_fuel_pump.jpg) I'm hoping it's still ok. Even though it was only $27 I still would rather not replace it right now.
In response to Stu, lower gears seem fine over all RPMs but even when it's not having problems, the bike doesn't like 70mph in 6th gear. Started noticing this when I switch to 15/43 sprockets from 15/41 a while ago but didn't think much of it. I'm not sure what RPM this is since my tac is broken. I found that a bit odd since I didn't notice any problems when I was running 15/41. I could cruise at 70mph in 6th and still accelerate just fine with little throttle input but when I switched sprockets there's a big flat spot of power on the lower end of 6th gear. It's not quite lugging, it's just got no power and I really have to gun it to accelerate in 6th gear at 70mph.
I wonder if I can dig around in the carbs on my own or if it's over my head.
Ok, if you've got the manual petcock, then never mind that going bad.
As far as your carbs go with the gearing and lack of power @ 70mph... maybe your needle-jets are oval-ing out some. Can cause odd problems like what you're describing but that wouldn't have the effect of the bike dying out when hot...that's a different issue.
As far as replacing hoses goes, try an auto parts store before a Home-Depot and a motorcycle shop (not a dealership) before an auto parts store.
Can you post up a pic of how your fuel pump is routed/positioned?!? That may yield clues...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on April 21, 2009, 08:43:48 PM
Ok, if you've got the manual petcock, then never mind that going bad.
As far as your carbs go with the gearing and lack of power @ 70mph... maybe your needle-jets are oval-ing out some. Can cause odd problems like what you're describing but that wouldn't have the effect of the bike dying out when hot...that's a different issue.
As far as replacing hoses goes, try an auto parts store before a Home-Depot and a motorcycle shop (not a dealership) before an auto parts store.
Can you post up a pic of how your fuel pump is routed/positioned?!? That may yield clues...
Definitely auto parts store for fuel lines. The petcock suggestion was simply b/c I have heard other say theirs have failed but if you have a mechanical then nvm. (I have never had a problem with the vacuum ones either)
Here is an easy way to prove to yourself the problem is fuel delivery. Carry the appropriate size wrench with you and see what comes out of the float bowls after you run out of power.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22384.msg399317#msg399317 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22384.msg399317#msg399317)
As far as the heat goes, low fuel delivery, low float height. Low float height, lean mixture. Lean mixture, more heat. If the problem is heat related, enter Catch 22.
For test purposes you can bypass the fuel pump. The bike will run on gravity as long as the level in the fuel tank is higher than the carbs.
Bypass the filter and fuel pump with new lines and go for a ride.
Gonna go get fuel lines today. We'll see if I get around to swapping them out. The bike's my only mode of transport right now so I gotta give it time to cool down after I go get the parts.
This is how my fuel lines are routed. They rest on the belt covers a bit and in the front where they connect to the carbs? they touch the engine as the squeeze between the air box and the engine.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/erkishhorde/FuelLines.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/erkishhorde/FuelLines2.jpg)
The fuel pump touches the frame at the top mounting point and where the fuel line out connects. Other than that it's just hanging there so I don't know why it gets so hot.
The routing really isn't any worse than factory. As someone who has been known to do things back asswords, could you have in and out mixed up on the pump?
Quote from: howie on April 22, 2009, 02:26:41 PM
The routing really isn't any worse than factory. As someone who has been known to do things back asswords, could you have in and out mixed up on the pump?
Pretty sure I got it right. I installed it in Chris's parking lot in kind of a rush but wouldn't the bike not work at all if it were backwards...?
Quote from: erkishhorde on April 22, 2009, 11:03:23 PM
Pretty sure I got it right. I installed it in Chris's parking lot in kind of a rush but wouldn't the bike not work at all if it were backwards...?
It shouldn't work since it has check valves. If the check valves are leaking it could work somewhat. Just another (slim) possibility to check. Anyway, I have one in the garage. I should be able to compare it to your photograph later.
It looks like you are hooked up correctly. The arrows can be seen on the back side anyway. I doubt it will make a difference, but you might try to secure the pump.
make the beast with two backs me! [laugh] When asked whether the diaphragm vent hoses were all still routed properly I said they were because I forgot about the one on the left side of the bike! While I was putting the air box back on after bypassing the fuel pump I noticed an extra hose with a split end right next to front mounting screw for the air box! [bang] The dang hose split and fell off the pod.
So now my question is, what does this do? So I put it back on, think that will fix everything? Can I put my fuel pump back on? Could this hose having been disconnected cause my fuel pump to crap out on me?
Doubt it but maybe someone smarter than I can chip in lol.
Boo, I was hoping that the disconnected hose was screwing up the fuel/air mixture and causing the fuel pump to work too hard and thus overheat and stop working.
Also, if you can just bypass the fuel pump and let it gravity feed, why is there a fuel pump there in the first place?
Quote from: erkishhorde on April 26, 2009, 09:49:43 AM
Boo, I was hoping that the disconnected hose was screwing up the fuel/air mixture and causing the fuel pump to work too hard and thus overheat and stop working.
Also, if you can just bypass the fuel pump and let it gravity feed, why is there a fuel pump there in the first place?
The outlet is too low to get all the fuel from the tank.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 26, 2009, 11:20:00 AM
The outlet is too low to get all the fuel from the tank.
Lol, so now I've got the fuel capacity of a new bike. [roll]
Got the bike together sans fuel pump. It SEEMS to run fine. Didn't get to do a thorough run down but it ran very smoothly on the 55mi trip from my parent's place to my apt. Complained ever so slightly when I tried to pass a car on a hill and I quickly gave up since I didn't want to push it at all in the dark. I'll give it a good run tomorrow.
CLOSURE!!!
For make the beast with two backs's sake! I finally got it licked I think!
Bypassing the fuel pump didn't totally solve my problem. I still had problems but they didn't seem as bad. I'll tell you why in a second.
After thinking that it was rust, I had a POR15 treatment done on my tank. My guy said that he didn't find anything unusual. No large scales of rust or anything of the sort. Bugger, oh well, at least now I won't have to deal with that in future.
Then when I got the bike back from the POR15 I got really frustrated because the bike wouldn't start! WTF! Well, when I was doing all my fuel pump fiddling I had replaced half of the fuel lines, all the lines from my petcock to the carbs. I figured now was as good of a time as any to do the rest, everything from the tank to the petcock. Still no joy. [bang] Clean the carbs? make the beast with two backs! 6 O-rings and 2 gaskets for a carb cleaning cost $41! :o Still no joy. [bang] [bang] [bang]
Dad pops in and goes, "Well, get a dropper and put some gas down the carbs and then see if the bike starts. Nick had mentioned something similar but it totally slipped my mind since I was already dead set on cleaning the carbs. Well, it worked. The bike started and then died. Fuel starvation... WTF??? I've already done everything...
Oh wait... When I took off the fuel line going to the carbs a little filter came off the carbs with it... Hmm... that filter didn't look dirty but I hadn't really thought of it and hadn't looked at it closely so I decided to take another look. Oh look, there's a crapload of black stuff! What is it...? Kinda looks like... rubber? Hose? OOOOOHH!!! The original problem may have been fuel pump issues waaaay back at the beginning but because my fuel lines were so old, when I started bending them around to do the fuel pump and the POR15 it caused the brittle lines to flake off on the inside! These flakes then clogged up the little filter at the carbs! I never saw it because the bike always sat before I took it apart so the fuel would drain a bit and take all of the little rubber bits back down the fuel line where I never saw them. Bypassing the fuel pump sort of helped my problem because the gravity feed wasn't strong enough to carry enough of the rubber flakes to totally clog up the filter. Why these problems only seemed to pop up when I was very low on gas, I have no clue.
So, I drained all the lines into a jar with a paper towel over the top to get the rest of the rubber shavings out and try to save the fuel. A quick test ride and the bike runs fine! Well, it's idling a little low and kinda dies but it could just not have warmed up yet. I'll give it a beating tomorrow and try to run it through at least one or two tanks of gas to see if I've got the problem fully licked. I can now pull the airbox off my bike in about 3 minutes and put it back on in about 5. [roll] Funny how the first time took me nearly half an hour to get it back on.
Thank you to all that helped. CASE CLOSED! I hope... [roll] [moto]
Quote from: erkishhorde on April 21, 2009, 02:19:48 PM
I also found that my vent hose for the tank got disconnected some how but I don't think that matters. The hose was surprisingly hot though considering that it was just sitting there not attached to anything. Must have been heat transfer from the frame.
It seems to be only occurring when the bike is hot. I think it just seemed to be related to fuel level at first due to the distances that I ride and the spacing of my breaks.
Take something and attach it to the vent hole and blow into it. If you can't without resisitance, your vent is clogged. IMO, your bike has the exact symptoms of a clogged fuel vent.
Quote
Stangman mentioned carbs and jetting. How would the carbs be causing this issue?
How many miles are on your bike? Over time, the needle running in the emulsion jet can wear and become oval, which lets in extra air around the needle and messes with the mixture.
Congrats on faultfinding! [thumbsup]
QuoteI can now pull the airbox off my bike in about 3 minutes and put it back on in about 5.
I don`t belive you. :D
After 50 efforts, my best was 8,20 minutes.
Start: Bike assembled & runnin. All needed tools on bench.
Finish: Airbox on bench.
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 01, 2009, 09:45:34 PM
CLOSURE!!!
For make the beast with two backs's sake! I finally got it licked I think!
Thank you to all that helped. CASE CLOSED! I hope... [roll] [moto]
Congratulations. As much trouble as you went through, IMO you found out the "easy way" your fuel lines were crap. Mine, I split the line that comes out of the tank to the filter and dripped 3 gal of gas in my garage while I was at work. It's a miracle my water heater pilot light didn't blow up my freakin' garage. :o
NOTE TO OLDER MONSTER OWNERS: Your fuel lines are more than likely crap. Replace them before the screw you over.