'kay fellas, I thought it was time to vent a bit about my S2R 1000. Had this beast since new, and I have been going through the "usual" upgrades. $2000 Termi pipes, headers, ECU. Looking to do a 520 chain conversion while changing the ratio, $600. Clutch slave, possibly clutch master, and looking at $500 there with a new 'line.
Sure, I could go on from there, but after seeing the component & wheel improvements done to the new 1100, I have to say I'm a little envious. Not in the aesthetics, but in the way the newer bike is outfitted. I can see the costs of upgrades this year alone getting over $1500, and that's just getting the S2R to be something comfortable for my prefernces.
Yes, I understand any bike will be accessorized as its owner sees fit. That's just what cycles are all about. But I'm starting to question "how much" money is required to get the bike to where it's usable, I guess I have issue with that.
Case in point. I test rode a BMW R1200R. Completely different end of the same standard-bike spectrum. Know what? Everything fit. Components, brakes, clutch pull and effort were right there from the first three feet I was moving. Same when I tested the Speed Triple and the KTM 990, with exception of the exhaust. And, yes, these are also at different price points, different "segments" of a standard bike. But more considered as a total bike, a whole riding package.
I also understand that part of having a Monster is accessorizing it, and "making it your own". But to be competitive, I'm really surprised that Ducati hasn't offered a better spec on their standard air cooled bikes (Sport Classic included). The 696 and 1100 go a long way toward that end, but they also ask a higher MSRP. Before the inevitable Termignoni tax. . .
So, am I foolish in lusting after a different bike? Looking for something that requires less catalog surfing, and a little more seat time? Or is it a good time to be attending open houses to see about washing my hands of these shortcomings?
I'd say your foolish for sinking that money into a bike, then deciding you might want something else.
On a personal level, I've always felt that aside from a suspension adjustment, I should not have to sink a large amount of money into a bike to turn it into what it *should* be. I just take issue with taking something brand new, then replacing perfectly good parts to make it into what it should be.
I'd rather buy an older one and put the coin into that.
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 19, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
So, am I foolish in lusting after a different bike? Looking for something that requires less catalog surfing, and a little more seat time? Or is it a good time to be attending open houses to see about washing my hands of these shortcomings?
Not foolish at all. What you're battling with here is rationalization.
Get over it. There's nothing rational about dropping good $$ into a perfectly well operating machine.
If you want to compare apples to apples (read standard to standard moto) with a possibility of changing camps, then don't spend anymore money on your current bike. Instead, spend your time figuring out if you want to change camps, then decide which one. [moto]
If you had the BMW for the length of time you had the S2R you would find all kinds of faults with it and things you would want to upgrade.
One more thing. The clutch slave and 520 conversion won't give you much bang for the buck. Put a $35 14 tooth front sprocket on and remove 2 (free) springs from your clutch.
Quote from: silentbob on April 19, 2009, 08:59:55 PM
If you had the BMW for the length of time you had the S2R you would find all kinds of faults with it and things you would want to upgrade.
One more thing. The clutch slave and 520 conversion won't give you much bang for the buck. Put a $35 14 tooth front sprocket on and remove 2 (free) springs from your clutch.
Of course remove the springs right across from each other for balance. 33% less pull [thumbsup]
bmws have no faults germans dont mess around
Grass is always greener on the other side...
I've only bought one motorcycle as new and can feel your pain. When I got my s4r I liked it stock from the getgo but immediately wanted to do stuff to it. Whether it was coring the pipes, bar end mirrors, etc. It all ads up. I'm on my 5th monster w/in 2 years and the s2r1000 i just got is the badest ass bike I've ever riden, hands down. Unfreakin' believable. I started with m750 dark, then s2r800 then s4r then s2r800 then to a s2r1000. And I think, no I'm sure I am in love with this bike. Will post pics tomorrow as I should be studying. Ok went off track for a sec. I bought the bike after someone did all the "modifications" to it and it's perfect as is, there is literally nothing, well maybe just crg's that I need to do to this thing. Riding different brands or types of bikes will always make it feel different. Go with your gut. And if you stray to the bavarian side no one will mind, but you'll be back sooner than you think. Ride safe meng. [moto]
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 19, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
But I'm starting to question "how much" money is required to get the bike to where it's usable, I guess I have issue with that.
The fact you feel upgrades were required to make the bike "usable" makes me question why you bought something you didn't think was "usable."
I could understand a lower seat or lowering links or something like that for a shorter rider being needed to make a bike usable, also removing a couple springs from the clutch for someone who had difficulty with clutch pull might fall under being needed for usable.The Termis, upgraded brake & clutch lines & related, that and the 520 conversion have no bearing on the bike being usable.
JM
Quote from: That Nice Guy Beck! on April 19, 2009, 10:46:19 PM
bmws have no faults germans dont mess around
go buy an Audi
better yet talk to someone who owned an Audi 5000
Quote from: That Nice Guy Beck! on April 19, 2009, 10:46:19 PM
bmws have no faults germans dont mess around
Sure they do. Go to a Beemer forum and look at the complaints of final drive unit failures, and the complaints that if the tiniest thing is wrong, it takes 2 computers and a BMW dealer to fix it.
Of course, they are very reliable bikes, by and large.
To the OP: I'm with those who wonder why you bought the S2R if you felt there was so much wrong with it. There are plenty of other great bikes out there; I'd consider those before spending a ton of $ on a bike you don't seem to love.
Keep the one you have, it sounds like a pretty sweet bike from your description. I am a big fan of the S*R bikes. Ride the wheels off it. My M1100s will be outdated by a newer better model next year. Half the fun of owning a monster is modding it. If I had the money, I would own one of the past generation S*R bikes along with my new generation monster. I guess I am one of the few that love them both, equally. Keep your bike and make it your own...sounds like you already have.
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 19, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
'kay fellas, I thought it was time to vent a bit about my S2R 1000. Had this beast since new, and I have been going through the "usual" upgrades. $2000 Termi pipes, headers, ECU. Looking to do a 520 chain conversion while changing the ratio, $600. Clutch slave, possibly clutch master, and looking at $500 there with a new 'line.
...
Yes, I understand any bike will be accessorized as its owner sees fit. That's just what cycles are all about. But I'm starting to question "how much" money is required to get the bike to where it's usable, I guess I have issue with that.
Case in point. I test rode a BMW R1200R. Completely different end of the same standard-bike spectrum. Know what? Everything fit. Components, brakes, clutch pull and effort were right there from the first three feet I was moving. Same when I tested the Speed Triple and the KTM 990, with exception of the exhaust. And, yes, these are also at different price points, different "segments" of a standard bike. But more considered as a total bike, a whole riding package.
...
So, am I foolish in lusting after a different bike? Looking for something that requires less catalog surfing, and a little more seat time? Or is it a good time to be attending open houses to see about washing my hands of these shortcomings?
I guess you have to ask yourself, what is a better fit for you? A cookie-cutter BMW or a customized Ducati? Not that there is anything wrong with the BMW, it's just a different attitude bike.... I mean we are talking about A Monster here... a no-frills, no apologies, no creature comforts, all business, scare the kids Monster. [evil]
The stock slave had to go on my bike too, the sprocket change was already done by the previous owner, but my older bike had several of it's own "must do" mods like Dynacoils and an ignition wire upgrade. As mentioned previously just go with the 14T sprocket and be done with it. Sounds to me like you've got her very close to perfect... Don't stop now! Life is way too short to settle, make the bike exactly what you want and then ride the wheels off. [thumbsup]
Besides, lets be honest... if you broke up with her and then saw her with someone else, you'd only start to resent that BMW. [evil]
Where does a set of chain and sprockets go for $600? Or a clutch slave and master $500??
Maybe if you pay the shop labor. I was about about $140 in parts an about an hour in time when I changed out chain and sprockets ~
JM
excuse me. lets revisit Roscoe's post. where in the make the beast with two backs are you finding chains and sprockets for $600 for a 520 conversion? Top o' the line chain is under $200, sprockets are another 125 at the most. The most I can imagine spending for all of that, if you tried REALLY hard to spend more, would be $350.
Something is out of whack there.
Slave Cyl replace is cheap, and a DIY thing. All you have to do is bleed the line when you are done, and it requires one hex wrench to swap out cylinders.
What's wrong with your master? Broken? There isn't a significant gain in switching from the S2R's, trust me - I'm rocking the Billet GP Radial 16x18 master cylinder. Its hard to find one better, unless you like the roller/rocker set up of the beringer's. But still, its not so substantial of an improvement to warrant spending money on it "just because".
And A BMW is a best of a completely different color. Not the same kind of light sporty feel. Its a different animal. Maybe its the animal you prefer, but if you are thinking about more performance oriented parts like lightweight sprockets, and upgraded clutch hydraulics, a BMW is an exercise in the other way: more robust parts that won't fail but also don't have those features, like lightweight race derived parts. Great bikes, but are made with a different goal in mind.
Quote from: ato memphis on April 20, 2009, 08:55:19 AM
a BMW is an exercise in the other way: more robust parts that won't fail but also don't have those features
Not these days. Just ask Shadowchaser. He works in the service department at a BMW/Ducati dealer. The Ducatis are the reliable ones these days.
Quote from: Goat_Herder on April 19, 2009, 10:56:52 PM
Grass is always greener on the other side...
and then you find out how much your neighbor spends to keep it greener... :P
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 19, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
'kay fellas, I thought it was time to vent a bit about my S2R 1000. Had this beast since new, and I have been going through the "usual" upgrades. $2000 Termi pipes, headers, ECU. Looking to do a 520 chain conversion while changing the ratio, $600. Clutch slave, possibly clutch master, and looking at $500 there with a new 'line.
Sure, I could go on from there, but after seeing the component & wheel improvements done to the new 1100, I have to say I'm a little envious. Not in the aesthetics, but in the way the newer bike is outfitted. I can see the costs of upgrades this year alone getting over $1500, and that's just getting the S2R to be something comfortable for my prefernces.
Yes, I understand any bike will be accessorized as its owner sees fit. That's just what cycles are all about. But I'm starting to question "how much" money is required to get the bike to where it's usable, I guess I have issue with that.
Case in point. I test rode a BMW R1200R. Completely different end of the same standard-bike spectrum. Know what? Everything fit. Components, brakes, clutch pull and effort were right there from the first three feet I was moving. Same when I tested the Speed Triple and the KTM 990, with exception of the exhaust. And, yes, these are also at different price points, different "segments" of a standard bike. But more considered as a total bike, a whole riding package.
I also understand that part of having a Monster is accessorizing it, and "making it your own". But to be competitive, I'm really surprised that Ducati hasn't offered a better spec on their standard air cooled bikes (Sport Classic included). The 696 and 1100 go a long way toward that end, but they also ask a higher MSRP. Before the inevitable Termignoni tax. . .
So, am I foolish in lusting after a different bike? Looking for something that requires less catalog surfing, and a little more seat time? Or is it a good time to be attending open houses to see about washing my hands of these shortcomings?
Lots of stuff to address here, first it is not uncommon to have regrets over spending a lot of money on upgrades. However, if you don't want to spend money on upgrades then either buy an upgraded model, or buy a bike off somebody that has already done the mods. I purchased my 06 S2R all tricked out with $4,000 of goodies already on it for the bargain price of $8,000. To have duplicated the bike from new would have cost me atleast $15,000.
Your proposed chain mod makes no sense, buy a 14T sprocket for $35 and be done with it, why are you switching to a 520 anyway?
The clutch can be modified for far less than $500 and as others have said, the master cylinder replacement is cosmetic.
Also bear in mind that Ducati and other motorcycle manufactures put quiet/heavy/low performance exhausts on their bikes due to cost restraints and legal requirements, not just because they want to saddle you with a Termi Tax.
BMW's are totally different, if it fits better then buy it, but ask yourself if you will be happy with it stock. If not then look for used bikes that ve already been modded
Quote from: silentbob on April 20, 2009, 09:30:20 AM
Not these days. Just ask Shadowchaser. He works in the service department at a BMW/Ducati dealer. The Ducatis are the reliable ones these days.
hell i hadn't seen shadowchaser in here since last year.
Thanks for the posts, fellas. Don't get me wrong, I like the Monster S2R, and know that everyone here mods their bikes in some way. My 1996 M900 is a testament to modding (and chopping 35 lbs out of the bike in the meantime, but that's another story).
To give a bit of background on the S2R history, I had the M900, and was looking for the last version of what is now called the "classic" Monster look. The local dealer only had a Sport Classic to test ride, with the Termi setup, and it felt great. hey, nothing against the dealer, I acknowledge I was headstrong, and thought I knew what I was looking for. The SC was/is a great bike, gearing and performance felt great, so I took it on faith that the Monster S2R would be just about the same. I didn't consider the S4 series, since I just didn't need that power, and I just don't groove on the barn door in the breeze look.
And we know that S2Rs just aren't offered (or weren't offered) with the S4R components. So, I figured I'd get into the Monster and see what needed changing. In retrospect, it was a mistake on my part that I didn't test ride a box-stock S2R. For two significant reasons:
1) the bike is incredibly choked up. In doing research, it became evident that (ironically) the path to performance was easier, possibly more foolproof, through the Ducati Performance ECU. Hence, the Termi slip-on and ECU kit.
2) the bike is also incredibly over-geared. the 14T front is on, to remedy that.
I'll also add that the levers are way way way too far out for my fingers. I don't know if I have stubby fingers, but I fit a size large glove (?) Anyway, the reach in the "adjustable" levers is pretty far out to make a quick grab. The clutch pressure deal is another question I have, especially for Ducati. A dry hydraulic clutch is what a Monster is all about, but hey, set us up with a bigger bore size already. Most of us do a little street riding. . . .
So, those three facets of the S2R are what I might have experienced if I tested one in the flesh instead of buying it blind. Or already accessorized. I take full responsibility for that.
What I wonder is that if this is Ducati's "legacy" with the air cooled Monster, why doesn't it have the same necessary upgrades to make it livable, especially when compared to the bikes I mentioned earlier? Yes, I know about meeting EPA and db requirements, the entire Ducati line has that choked feeling until you sort out the exhaust. What about the levers and pressure, though? tell me that we haven't been asking for a better resolution there for the least ten years. Is it too much to ask for a bigger bore slave, so we can endure a traffic signal with a stock bike? Looks like they got the message on the 696s. . . (wonderful spec, BTW, honest!).
So, there's where I compare the S2R to a 2008 Speed Triple and BMW R1200R. Yes, they are different points on the spectrum, and will give different and unique experiences. I'm answering my own question, I suppose, in that I also know that after riding them for some time, I'd probably alter some facet of those bikes as well.
Two last points. On just about any bike, I'd be modding the clutch. A fractured left wrist years ago has me doing the slave and master cylinders to better control the clutch (I prefer this instead of a slipper), and the lever pull is great. That mod alone just adds up, and will on any bike.
Second is that someone called me on a 520 conversion. Yes, it matters. a 520 has way way less resistance that the stock 525. I did this on the M900, and it's surprising how much easier the bike works with less final drive drag. But on the S2R, there aren't many "cheap" options for a 44T rear. Why a 44 rear? I prefer to keep the countershaft at 15, keeping the stresses as designed in that area. A 520 chain, coming in at $135-$150, then a $30 front sprocket, then a rear 44T (which you have to get that sprocket carrier, or at least a Stealth at $150-$170). So, that's between $315-$350. Again, not a necessity, but a preference (I b!tch a lot, don't I?)
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 21, 2009, 06:48:45 PM
Second is that someone called me on a 520 conversion. Yes, it matters. a 520 has way way less resistance that the stock 525. I did this on the M900, and it's surprising how much easier the bike works with less final drive drag. But on the S2R, there aren't many "cheap" options for a 44T rear. Why a 44 rear? I prefer to keep the countershaft at 15, keeping the stresses as designed in that area. A 520 chain, coming in at $135-$150, then a $30 front sprocket, then a rear 44T (which you have to get that sprocket carrier, or at least a Stealth at $150-$170). So, that's between $315-$350. Again, not a necessity, but a preference (I b!tch a lot, don't I?)
When people do a 520 conversion they typically lower the gearing and that is what you feel. I bet in a blind taste test with two identical S2R 1000s, with the same gear ratio, but a 520 chain on one and a 525 on the other, you would not be able to tell the difference. I have tried similar bikes with 520 vs 525 and with the same gearing there just isn't a difference. As far as the 14 tooth sprocket goes, Ducati even offers one in the DP catalog. There are many of us who track our bikes with 14 tooth sprockets and we have never had any failures.
I also don't like my clutch lever to be far away from the bar. I wear a large glove but have the same stubby finger problem I guess. I run CRG levers and keep them as close to the bar as they go, for this reason I wouldn't go with a larger clutch slave because the lever will need more travel. I don't have a problem with the pull on the 1098, but my S4R seemed heavier. You can always remove a couple of springs from the clutch and have the best of both worlds. Same lever travel and reduced effort.
I've seen as many as three springs removed. You could also, or instead, install spacers (washers) under the spring caps to lighten the pull.
On my M900, I've removed two springs and put washers under the caps, and it works flawlessly and has a silly-light clutch (compared to stock).
Quote from: littlewiseass on April 19, 2009, 08:29:10 PM
On a personal level, I've always felt that aside from a suspension adjustment, I should not have to sink a large amount of money into a bike to turn it into what it *should* be. I just take issue with taking something brand new, then replacing perfectly good parts to make it into what it should be.
+1
Quote from: trouble on April 20, 2009, 06:43:41 AM
go buy an Audi
-1
I'd take an Audi A4 over the BMW 325 or Mercedes C-Class any day and twice on Sunday. Anyone that disparages the Audi's of today does not own one obviously and has not been aware of them for over 8 years... The engineering is there my friend, you just don't know...
I just bought (awaiting shipment) of a 520 conversion for my S2R1000. I went with what I have now 15/43 (switched to the 43 from an S4R a while ago) and that gearing works great for me. The fact that I can lose several pounds of rotating mass is why I'm doing it. I do everything I can to lighten the bike and this accomplishes that while increasing the efficiency to boot.
But, by your own admission, you spent $350 on the 520 swap, not $600...
Quote from: Loyalizer on April 21, 2009, 07:38:10 PM
-1
I'd take an Audi A4 over the BMW 325 or Mercedes C-Class any day and twice on Sunday. Anyone that disparages the Audi's of today does not own one obviously and has not been aware of them for over 8 years... The engineering is there my friend, you just don't know...
Funny, I've had nothing but trouble with my Audi and its an 05.
funnier still, i have a behemoth chevy tahoe and i have zero problems with my monster truck, and the government seems to like them so much, they just gave the maker a ton of money, fo' fweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Quote from: NAKID on April 21, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
I do everything I can to lighten the bike
Except cutting out the beer and donuts. [cheeky]
Whoa Whoa Whoa, I'm down to about 190 now. Stress takes it's toll. Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose...
190? paperweight.
Down from about 205-210 this time last year...
thats a lot of ballast for the silent service.......
Have you seen any of the submariners? I'm a lightweight! [laugh]
Quote from: hillbillypolack on April 21, 2009, 06:48:45 PMSecond is that someone called me on a 520 conversion. Yes, it matters. a 520 has way way less resistance that the stock 525. I did this on the M900, and it's surprising how much easier the bike works with less final drive drag. But on the S2R, there aren't many "cheap" options for a 44T rear. Why a 44 rear? I prefer to keep the countershaft at 15, keeping the stresses as designed in that area. A 520 chain, coming in at $135-$150, then a $30 front sprocket, then a rear 44T (which you have to get that sprocket carrier, or at least a Stealth at $150-$170). So, that's between $315-$350. Again, not a necessity, but a preference (I b!tch a lot, don't I?)
I find it ironic that you wish to keep the same stresses on the 15T sproket, but then you opt for a weaker chain. If that chain snaps, it will totally ruin your day and cost you a lot of money. I've seen chains do nasty things to flesh, steel, CF, aluminum etc, and that is one area I don't care to take any chances. It's your bike and your money, but personally I'd just order a 14T front and save a ton of cash for other light weight goodies ;D
Why do you think that a 520 is significantly weaker than a 525? The 525 is huge overkill on a bike like the S2R1000...
Quote from: NAKID on April 22, 2009, 07:29:57 PM
Why do you think that a 520 is significantly weaker than a 525? The 525 is huge overkill on a bike like the S2R1000...
Still trying to justify those donuts heh?
The 900 used to come with a 520. I am actually surprised that the 1000 comes with a 525 from the factory. You can get a 520 chain with the same tensile strength as a 525 these days. But they will wear out more quickly in high HP applications due to the smaller load bearing surfaces. It won't be an issue on a 1000 but it is on a 1098.
I think you are all spliting hairs. Its just a medium powered motorcycle, not the space shuttle... [drink]
I've got $79 in my Stealth sprocket. Even a DID ZVM (the best) chain can be had for $150 or less. Why is the S2R sprocket so much? Is it an oddball, or really low production number?
I prefer to save money for tires instead of accessories.
Quote from: herm on April 22, 2009, 04:26:00 PM
thats a lot of ballast for the silent service.......
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/silentbob_pics/ballast.jpg)
Yeah, thanks for that Rob....
Quote from: NAKID on April 24, 2009, 01:30:56 PM
Yeah, thanks for that Rob....
What?? I just happened to notice and took a picture.....
You started it, someone else Nate changed my name...
Quote from: NAKID on April 24, 2009, 06:34:20 PM
You started it, someone else Nate changed my name...
I think you are just imagining things. We would never conspire against you. [laugh]
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
Quote from: NAKID on April 24, 2009, 08:08:35 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
Don't worry, when you move out to San Diego I'll get you back in shape.
Man, I really hope so, there just aren't a lot of boats there...
Quote from: NAKID on April 24, 2009, 08:41:42 PM
Man, I really hope so, there just aren't a lot of boats there...
Yeah but they are REALLY big boats and we have subs too.
No, those are ships, subs are boats. Hence COB (Chief Of the Boat)...
Remember, I was on one of those really big ships...
Quote from: NAKID on April 24, 2009, 06:34:20 PM
You started it, someone else Nate changed my name...
What did I do?