Well it was cold and rainy all day today, so I decided to check my valve clearances. Now, the dealer did adjust the valves about 4000 miles ago (my cylinder heads were replaced on warranty), but 7500 miles is coming up, so I want to do all the services now anyway. This is on my 695, by the way. This is also my first time adjusting valves on a Ducati.
Anyhow, I checked the clearances, and on all 4 valves there was no clearance on the opener shim. I could easily spin the shim with my finger, but there was no play in the rocker, and I couldn't fit even my thinnest feeler gage in. However, if I pressed down the closer rocker with a screwdriver, I measured plenty of clearance, both between the opener shim and rocker ("loaded gap," as they say) and between the actual closer rocker and closer shim. So much clearance that it would seem all 4 closers were out of spec. It just seems weird that the closers are all out, and I couldn't even measure any of the openers. Is that unusual?
For reference, I used the timing marks on the crankshaft sprocket, vertical cylinder cam sprocket, and the flywheel to make sure things were at TDC. I also looked through the spark plug hole to make sure the piston was right at the top of its travel. For the horizontal cylinder, the dealer had painted a second mark on the vertical cylinder camshaft sprocket, and that seemed to match up perfectly with TDC for the horizontal cylinder, so I went with that. Point being, I'm pretty confident I had the cams where they were supposed to be when I was measuring.
I did leave the timing belts on though. Do you really need to take them off to do this? I wanted to leave them on because I'm not replacing them at this time.
Oh yeah and one more thing. None of my valve covers had gaskets. They all had some white RTV-like gasket maker stuff, which the dealer must have used. Anyone seen that before?
Probably DucatiBond. My dealer likes to use that goop too. Never done my own adjustment on the 695, so I can't help there. Someone else'll chime in soon.
You're right about the goop. I just asked my dealer abiout it, and they said I could buy a tube for about $14. Maybe I'll just get that instead of the gaskets.
So anyone have any advice about my valves? ???
You can probably get a high-temp RTV gasket maker that does the same thing as the $14 Ducati stuff for cheaper at the auto parts.
Not sure on "normal" for all the closers to be out, BUT as the engine parts bed in and such, you're likely to see movement & required adjustments in the 1st couple valve checks ~
JM
Zero closer shim clearances on a 2 valve motor like yours when you can spin the shim but not put a guage in is good it means the clearance is .001 and will make the bike run best thats the closers the opener should be .004. so it may be yours is wrong!!!
I always do it on 2v motors but NEVER do it on a 4valver.
Sounds like you have the timing marks right. Everything makes sense. Good thing you checked your valves cuz they sound tight.
Find a reputable dealer with plenty of references or do it yourself. Those are the only two options I would consider.
I'm definitely going to do it myself. Way to easy too pay someone else to do it! My only gripe is now I have to buy smaller opener shims just to be able to measure them, and then I'll have to buy shims again to get the clearance correct!
I think what I'm going to do is go to the dealer and just buy one opener shim. I'll get a thin one. Then I'll be able to use that to figure out what size openers I'll need to get for each valve. Anyone see a problem with that idea?
By the way, anyone know where I can get some metric feeler gages? I just have a regular english set from Sears, and they have the metric numbers on them, but they go in all goofy intervals. It would be nice to have just metric size ones.
Before you go to the dealer...
I think you are not at TDC on the compression stroke. If you're getting opener clearance when you push the closer rocker down, something's not right - like the valve is moving down.
IMHO, the way to be sure of TDC on the compression stroke is to (after removing spark plugs) put your finger over the spark plug hole and then rotate the rear tire in top gear (or however you're turning the motor over). When that cylinder is approaching TDC-compression, your finger will be pushed off the hole by air pressure. Next, stick a screwdriver into the hole until it contacts the piston top. SLOWLY rotate the engine - adjusting the screwdriver position so it doesn't jam against the plug hole - until the screwdriver stops upward movement. Now take a look through the sidecover window and bump the rotation to perfectly line up the marks. Repeat if you go past the mark accidentally. Now you can be confident that your shim clearance measurements will be valid for that cylinder.
Also, one quick note. Pending you're sure your at TDC you have some options without buying new shims.
A tight opener can be sanded down to obtain the proper clearance. You've already indicated that the shim can be spun by hand. If this is the case, you could probably sand these down fairly easily. Get a flat piece of glass and some 600 grit paper and wet sand it down to the right clearance.
That being said, if your openers are screwed up, you might want to check your closers as well.
I agree, and the same applies to the closer shims. If you do need to buy some, I recommend EMSduc.com. Way cheaper than dealer, and beautifully made shims. Mike ships very quickly, too.
I found almost the same exact thing when adjusting valves on Rule62's bike recently. All closers were loose, and a couple openers were tight. My theory is that as the valves "seat" and wear into the valve seats they are slowly moving out of the head and towards the openers, tightening things up (by thousandths of an inch of course). Just a good reason to check/adjust them every once in a while.
Earl, your procedure for finding TDC is pretty much exactly what I did. I think that's a pretty foolproof way to do it [thumbsup]
Well I went over to the dealer on my way from work to school, and they don't really sell individual shims (???), but the parts guy said I should measure the openers I have and we can trade out some of them with the giant service shim stockpile.
Once I figure out what sizes I need, I'll order them from EMS. Definitely way cheaper than the dealer!
Also, my buddy is going to bring over some Honda factory feeler gages tomorrow. Supposedly they are metric and go in super fine increments, so that ought to be much better than my crap english feelers.
Quote from: Dietrich on April 20, 2009, 02:49:29 PM
I found almost the same exact thing when adjusting valves on Rule62's bike recently. All closers were loose, and a couple openers were tight. My theory is that as the valves "seat" and wear into the valve seats they are slowly moving out of the head and towards the openers, tightening things up (by thousandths of an inch of course). Just a good reason to check/adjust them every once in a while.
That totally makes sense, I bet you're right [beer]
Quote from: Paegelow on April 20, 2009, 12:17:10 PM
I think what I'm going to do is go to the dealer and just buy one opener shim. I'll get a thin one. Then I'll be able to use that to figure out what size openers I'll need to get for each valve. Anyone see a problem with that idea?
By the way, anyone know where I can get some metric feeler gages? I just have a regular english set from Sears, and they have the metric numbers on them, but they go in all goofy intervals. It would be nice to have just metric size ones.
You shouldn't need to buy an extra shim just for measuring. Pull off the shims one at a time, measure them and use the smaller one to gauge what you need. You may find you can get a couple in spec using the shims you have.
In 4,000 miles your valves can't be that far off. You have to be on the compression stroke. Remove the plugs and put your finger over the hole. Turn over the engine and when you feel presure then you are on the compression stroke.
That's what I did! Where'd you get 4000 miles? It has 6900
EDIT: Oh yeah, I said before they were adjusted 4000 miles ago by the dealer. Or so they told me at least
Ok I tried messing with it some more and I'm confused again. I can't get any of the rockers to slide back over the shims! I got the engine turned to the spot where the rocker can slide back and forth, but when I put the opener shim back on top of the valve, I can't get the rocker to slide back over on top of it. It seems way too tight! [bang]
You need to push down on the closer rocker arm and on the valve a bit. Are you doing all this with the belts on?
Quote from: Paegelow on April 21, 2009, 01:57:56 PM
Ok I tried messing with it some more and I'm confused again. I can't get any of the rockers to slide back over the shims! I got the engine turned to the spot where the rocker can slide back and forth, but when I put the opener shim back on top of the valve, I can't get the rocker to slide back over on top of it. It seems way too tight! [bang]
Unless the shim is way too tight, you should be able to turn the cam back and forth a bit to find the spot where the rocker will slide over.
OK OK OK I gave it another look, and yeah I just had to push down on the closer rocker a little harder. So I got that figured out.
Yeah, the belts are on for all this.
So I was able to swap my opener shims around and get measurements for both intake valves. Both exhaust openers are still to tight to measure with my smallest shim though, so I'll have to figure that out next.
How do you guys get the closer shim loose from the valve? I wasn't able to move the shim down without the valve moving. Looks like the collets are a little stuck!
Have you seen the videos from ca-cycleworks? If not, I think you need to do this first.
I want to be as honest as possible with you. I'm worried you're going to drop a valve into the head.
1) You should not be adjusting closers with belts on. You need to spin the cam to test drag.
Please go watch the videos..I'm getting the distinct feeling you havent.
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/videos/ (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/videos/)
I have watched the videos... Do you really need to have the belts off?
Quote from: Paegelow on April 21, 2009, 04:23:05 PM
I have watched the videos... Do you really need to have the belts off?
It's really a *tremendous* amount easier with the belts off.
Ok now that I think about it you guys are probably right, it would be a lot easier with the belts off.
So what do you guys use to hold on to the valve stem?
Quote from: Paegelow on April 20, 2009, 12:17:10 PM
I think what I'm going to do is go to the dealer and just buy one opener shim. I'll get a thin one.
You can just take one out, sand it down, and then use it. No need to buy new ones. Sand on 600 grit wateproof paper on a glass plate with some oil to lubricate and rotate often to make sure you keep it flat. Measure often so you don't go too far.
To hold the valve stems I use a set of surgical forceps with heat shrink tubing over the tips. Take care not to damage the oil seals. Also, if you're at TDC the valve can only go so far. I don't think it can fall all the way into the cylinder.
Scott
I've been adjusting valves with belts on. It is nerve racking about dropping a valve, but my other concern is binding the valve on a piston since you have to move the cam around to get things freed up for such things as moving the rocker over and droping the closer down to free the collets. I'll probably pull the belts next time and try it because the forcepts are a PIA also, and like to slip off when oily.
YOu dont need squat to keep the valves from falling in. Since ducatis are interference motors you can rest them on the piston. Thats part of the reason I pull the belts.
I only recommend doing this if you can do a valve adjustment blindfolded with one hand..
Couldn't a valve fall in if the piston went down far enough?
Quote from: Paegelow on April 21, 2009, 08:01:05 PM
Couldn't a valve fall in if the piston went down far enough?
Yes, but that's why you only remove closers with the piston at TDC. ;)
True that.
I was talking to one of the guys at the dealer, and he said he has a piece of safety wire wrapped in electrical tape that he bends into a curve and sticks in the sparkplug hole under the valve, to keep it from falling in. I guess that would work.
I'm still wondering how to get the closer shims un-stuck from the valves though. I don't want to grab the valve stem with a pliers and scratch it up, but I can't hold it very tightly with my fingers either. Any good tricks?
Sometimes the half rings leave a little burr on the stem. Your closers were all loose IIRC.
A pass with a piece of 220 grit paper should solve the problem...or just pull harder. :P
Pull up on the valve...this will give you access to the half rings. remove half rings w/ magnet. The shim can then come off
You'd better secure the valve BEFORE you do any of this. Also there are oil drain holes in each head. LOOK CAREFULLY they are there. Make sure you cover these before you do any work. If a half ring falls in there you could be screwed.
An 8mm bolt on a piece of safety wire blocks the oil galley nicely.
Scott
Quote from: Paegelow on April 21, 2009, 08:34:48 PM
True that.
I was talking to one of the guys at the dealer, and he said he has a piece of safety wire wrapped in electrical tape that he bends into a curve and sticks in the sparkplug hole under the valve, to keep it from falling in. I guess that would work.
I'm still wondering how to get the closer shims un-stuck from the valves though. I don't want to grab the valve stem with a pliers and scratch it up, but I can't hold it very tightly with my fingers either. Any good tricks?
If you're talking about getting the shim off the stem, do what DP said. Sometimes the there is a bit of a fat spot developed on the end of the stem and the shim won't slide up over it. If you're still trying to get the collets off the stem then you need to carefully push down on the rocker until the shim slips down enough to get the collets off. A magnetic pick-up tool works great for grabbing the collets. Don't forget to remove whatever you use to block the oil galleys after you're done, or you'll be very unhappy.
There may be some hints / info you can use in this thread:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18964.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18964.0)
Alright thanks guys. Yeah I have bolts with safety wire plugging all the oil galleys (just like LT Snyder told me to do)
Dirt Monster, your write up is printed out and tucked in my Desmo Times manual. Good info there! [bow_down]
My problem before was getting the closer shim and collets loose. I think I'll try again after work and take the timing belts off this time. In the CA Cycleworks video it looks lke he's pressing down the closer rocker a lot farther than mine would go. I must have had the cam in a bad spot for it.
I also got a EMS shim kit on ebay, so I should get that on Friday. Then hopefully I can wrap this sucker up [thumbsup]
Shim kit has a range of closers /openers but only one closer/opener of each size..If your closers/openers are of similar size. You may need more shims. Either that or you'll have to do a lot of sanding from the incrementally higher size.
Just giving you a heads up.
That is true. One of the dudes at the dealership said I could probably trade a few with them if I need to though
You have a better dealer than mine. My guy was asking 21 bucks per shim.
Quote from: Paegelow on April 22, 2009, 09:39:48 AM
That is true. One of the dudes at the dealership said I could probably trade a few with them if I need to though
Trade them the ones at the extremes.
You'll never use them. ;)
Hey have you guys tried just using a clothes pin to hang on to the valve stem?
I HAD some forceps, but as soon as I tried to clamp them on the valve they broke [laugh]
A clothes pin will be a little bulky, but will probably hold the valve.
Quote from: Dirty Dastardly Dangerous Dan on April 23, 2009, 03:47:07 AM
A clothes pin will be a little bulky, but will probably hold the valve.
I tried it, it slips... the spring isn't tight enough. I found the best technique was to shove some 1/4" nylon cord, or plastic tubing in through the spark plug hole. That wedges the valve from below, and won't scratch anything, and keeps your valve/shim/rocker area clear to work.
You're right. The clothespin didn't work for shit :P
Harbor Freight Tools sells an inexpensive set of long forceps. Long enough that they flex and hold the valve before they snap. Like I said, tape or heat shrink tubing to keep them from scratching things.
I think the CA Cycle Works video shows a modded plastic set, could prolly find 'em at a surgical supply store.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94952 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94952)
Scott
I saw those there. I thought they would be way too big so I got the small ones. Well they were way too small! The plastic ones in the video look like just the right thing
if it has noopening clearance nad lots of closing clearance them the collets have worn a lot (unlikely), the valves are receding in to the head or the heads are pulling off the valves. which they really never seem to do.
pull the belts. i can't imagine trying to do this with the belts on. you can push the valves out with the piston too, even when the tip has dropped below the top of the guide. you just need to be gentle and override the urge to scream lots and then hit shit with a hammer.
push down on the closing rocker (i use the end of teh valve - it's very easy) and slip a tapered pin punch or piece of bar, drill bit possibly, etc, around 12mm or so under the cam end of the rocker and it'll stay down. turn the engine over until it gets to tdc and the piston should push the valve up. if not wind the engine back a bit, push the valve down again a bit further and push the punch, etc, in further. wind back toward tdc to lift the valve. sometimes you won't get it to lift that much (exhausts) or they'll lift so far you can't get the shim off (inlets). adjust crank position as required.
then the collets are exposed, get them out with a magnet and slide the shim off. fit alternate shim, refit collets. better if you look at the wear marks and refit them the way they were. otherwise they'll just wear again and undo your adjustment.
occaisionally you have to file / rub the burrs off the valve stem or lever the shim off with a long screw driver.
once you've done it a few hundred times it becomes rather relaxing i find. having a lot of shims on hand to check thru also helps. doing it by swapping one at a time will be painful and drawn out unfortunately. but if you have a kit you can choose and then order more of what you need. you need an accurate measuring devic too, and one that measures in the acknowledged style. if you measure and it doesn't match the listed ems size then your measuring system is wrong so to speak, as it's not the actual size that matters, it's the variation of what you have now to what you need and you have to order by the supplier's measuring convention. make sure you get that sorted before trying to order shims. and make sure you can work in metric, don't start asking for shims in thou.
generally i find models tend to have a certain shim range, and you run out of a certain size while building a stock of others. openers of 4.00 - 4.50mm are rare to get out, but you often need 4.00 - 4.10. st2 and 900ie often have 5.00 or larger openers (5.00 is the largest they officially make, figure that out) and i stock new closers in the range 6.95 - 7.25 because it's so rare to ever get them in a bike, but much more common to need them.
but then you'll get a run of late 800 or something and they're all around 6.5 closers or something like that. and some others are all around 5.90 - 6.20. wacky, but all to do with the different machining for each model.
taking the shims at the extremes of your shim kit into a dealer to trade is insulting to their intelligence. if you tried that shit with me i'd tell you to stick your shims up your arse and make the beast with two backs off.
Quote from: brad black on April 24, 2009, 05:31:06 AM
slip a tapered pin punch or piece of bar, drill bit possibly, etc, around 12mm or so under the cam end of the rocker and it'll stay down.
An 8MM Allen will work too and usually a more common find in people's tool kits. Slip in the 90 degree short end. I use it all the time. Since it has a narrow profile, it doesnt interfere much with access when adjusting valves.
Alright! My shims came in the mail today, so I'm making some progress. Everything is starting to make sense :)
I ended up taking the timing belts off, and that made everything MUCH easier, just like everyone said ;)
I did my vertical cylinder just now, but I think I made one of the openers too tight. I could turn the cam, but there was a decent amount of resistance. I wouldn't say 'binding' but it was harder to turn than what it looked like in the Ca-Cycleworks video. Then again he said that closer was too loose. [roll] I can turn the shim with my finger when I press the rocker arm down, but it was pretty hard to turn. I'm thinking it's just a bit too tight.
I had a hard time figuring out which way to put the collets back in. They looked the same on both sides, so I couldn't tell which side was up!
Other than that though, it's coming along now. [thumbsup]
Hopefully I can have it all done tomorrow morning. I'm kind of sick so I don't feel like working on it all night!
I want to make sure your know how to check for binding on the closer so I'm going to clarify
To check closer binding properly you really need to have both intake and exhaust openers on each head shifted to the side.
are you doing that?
Then you spin the cam and feel for drag. If it sticks you will feel it. This is the right and best way to measure clearance. If you did it differently do it again.
When the drag on the cam dissappears, you should rotate the shim in 10 degree increments and spin the cam again just to check. When you can spin the shim one full turn without feeling any drag on the cam your closer is adjusted. No one can perfectly sand a shim flat. The variation will result in binding on one side and free spin on the other. Sand slowly and check often. You cant put material back on the shim once its gone.
Good luck
Yeah, I had both opener rockers moved to the side. That all makes sense. I'll check it out in the morning. I'm pretty sure I made the intake closer a tiny bit too tight
Lunch break status update: the vertical cylinder is all done and perfect! I think the other cylinder will go much faster now that I've pretty much figured it out [thumbsup]
Well I got it all done yesterday! I haven't taken it out for a ride yet (crap weather) but I started it and let it run for a while and it seems to run fine. So I guess I didn't mess anything up! ;D
In general, are the openers going to continue to get tighter, and the closers will get looser?
Quote from: Paegelow on April 26, 2009, 04:26:19 PM
Well I got it all done yesterday! I haven't taken it out for a ride yet (crap weather) but I started it and let it run for a while and it seems to run fine. So I guess I didn't mess anything up! ;D
In general, are the openers going to continue to get tighter, and the closers will get looser?
Not to the degree you just experienced. As things wear in that will happen to a small degree. It also pretty much stops changing much at all at about 18K. There are lots of variables that can affect it.
If you put the half rings back in the same way they came out they, the closers, won't change much, or shouldn't. If you flipped them, the closers are already about a thou looser than you set them.
Well I finally got out today for a ride, and it looks like everything is working fine!
Would there even be any indicators that I did something wrong? I didn't detect any noises that weren't there at least (I think) ;D
Did your bike run any different / or better since you adjusted your valves?
Not that I can really detect *shrug*