GM to announce Pontiac demise on Monday. [popcorn]
Quote from: kopfjager on April 26, 2009, 06:33:14 PM
GM to announce Pontiac demise on Monday. [popcorn]
Well the girls out there knock me out, you know.
Rock, rock, rock'n'roll high school
Cruisin' around in my
GTO Saturn.
booooooo GM
Wonder how many workers that will effect? :P
Quote from: trouble on April 26, 2009, 06:41:43 PM
Wonder how many workers that will effect? :P
My guess is not as many as one would think.
From a dealer perspective, most Pontiac franchises were bundled with Buick and GMC or another GM line (i.e. very few stand-alone Pontiac dealerships), so the number of dealers to close would be small.
From a product perspective, most, if not all Pontiac vehicles are simply re-badged & reskinned GM models of another make. Production will shift to those other makes.
Although it will have some negative effects, it was probably the easiest and quickest cost-savings decision GM had made so far, IMHO.
I was a service advisor at a pontiac dealership many moons ago. Talk of Pontiac being killed off have been going on a loooooong time.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 26, 2009, 06:57:15 PM
<snip> Production will shift to those other makes.
Although it will have some negative effects, it was probably the easiest and quickest cost-savings decision GM had made so far, IMHO.
Ideally...
the effect of the auto sales slow down are pretty far reaching.
Although you're right about it being the 'easiest/quickest' decision.
I'm bummed about how it will effect two of my favorite teams.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/sucp_0705_11_z2007_rolex_24_at_dayt.jpg)
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/pontiac.jpg)
i can't lie, as much as i hate many of the pontiacs, i like the sleeper-looking new GTO.
RIP: Trans-Am with the Phoenix in the hood. Maybe you'll rise from the ashes. :'(
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/1978_Trans-Am.jpg)
(http://images.cardomain.com/sites/cardomain/features/john/trans-am.jpg)
Quote from: kopfjager on April 26, 2009, 07:21:32 PM
I'm bummed about how it will effect two of my favorite teams.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/sucp_0705_11_z2007_rolex_24_at_dayt.jpg)
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/pontiac.jpg)
In all honesty, how much of those cars truly were "Pontiacs"?
the money that backed them [cheeky]
Quote from: ducpainter on April 26, 2009, 07:00:53 PM
Ideally...
the effect of the auto sales slow down are pretty far reaching.
-snip-
without a doubt.
Nearly every manufacturer saw a huge drop in sales last year.
Most are still down significantly this year.
Some projections a few years ago had the US market at close to 20M new vehicles this year. The industry is currently on pace for a little over 10M.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 26, 2009, 07:37:11 PM
In all honesty, how much of those cars truly were "Pontiacs"?
About as much as this is a Porsche, but without the manufacturer you won't have those teams.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/porsche.jpg)
Man, I'll never forget the first 65 GTO tripower (Gran Turismo Omologato) I saw on a car lot after school. Kinda sad to see em go. :'(
The 1965 Pontiac Tempest GTO
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 115.0
Weight, lbs: 3,468
Number built: 75,352
Base price: $2,751
Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 389
Fuel system: 3 x 2bbl.
Compression ratio: 10.75:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 360 @ 5200
Torque @ rpm: 424 @ 3600
Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 6.1
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.7 @ 99
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq353/1ajess/65gtoconvpf.jpg)
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq353/1ajess/65conveng4.jpg)
LA
Quote from: kopfjager on April 26, 2009, 07:40:59 PM
About as much as this is a Porsche, but without the manufacturer you won't have those teams.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/porsche.jpg)
to an extent, you are correct.
however, it isn't that much of a stretch to say that more of the technology of the Brumos (particularly the engine) is on an every day Porsche than what would carry over from the Gainsco Pontiac to a daily driver from them.
I heard GM will only be marketing four makes in the future (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac and POSSIBLY Buick). That was on NPR two months ago. Things change daily and who knows if that's still the plan. Shutting down Saturn would be a bummer - that's a product line that had been really doing well when it was just the SL-1 and SL-2 sedans.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 26, 2009, 08:06:00 PM
to an extent, you are correct.
however, it isn't that much of a stretch to say that more of the technology of the Brumos (particularly the engine) is on an every day Porsche than what would carry over from the Gainsco Pontiac to a daily driver from them.
The engine in the Gainsco car is a 305cubic inch Pontiac V8.
The Pontiac G8GXP from the factory comes with a 415hp 415fp tourque 6 speed manual or auto trans.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/gxp.jpg)
Quote from: redxblack on April 26, 2009, 08:12:13 PM
I heard GM will only be marketing four makes in the future (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac and POSSIBLY Buick). That was on NPR two months ago. Things change daily and who knows if that's still the plan. Shutting down Saturn would be a bummer - that's a product line that had been really doing well when it was just the SL-1 and SL-2 sedans.
Rumor is that Saturn will be sold, and will continue production with new ownership. Same goes for Hummer.
I heard Buick is staying because they sell a boat load of them to the Chinese. American stuff is considered high quality in China and Buick is there fave car.
Found this pic of a Wildcat GS w/ super charged 4.4L 425 hp. Styling of old Boat Tail Riviera.
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq353/1ajess/WildcatGS1.jpg)
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq353/1ajess/WildcatGS2.jpg)
LA
I never understood the whole Chevy/GMC thing, talk about insane redundancy
Quote from: Mother on April 27, 2009, 03:08:02 AM
I never understood the whole Chevy/GMC thing, talk about insane redundancy
+1
Dumping Pontiac is kind of a surprise, since that division's cars always appealed to me more than any other (G8GT in particular).
So, if Pontiac is dead, and GM begins to make some form of recovery, can there be hope for a new Buick Grand National? That would be cool.
Quote from: superjohn on April 27, 2009, 04:53:53 AM
So, if Pontiac is dead, and GM begins to make some form of recovery, can there be hope for a new Buick Grand National? That would be cool.
Although that would be cool, I don't really think that car would appeal to the masses, which is something GM is lacking these days.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30431844/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30431844/)
Quote from: LA on April 26, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
Found this pic of a Wildcat GS w/ super charged 4.4L 425 hp. Styling of old Boat Tail Riviera.
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq353/1ajess/WildcatGS2.jpg)
LA
Kinda reminds me of the '63-67 Stingray from this angle.
pretty sad....
between the G8 and the solstice, they were starting to make some cars I would be willing to buy again
+1 on dumping GMC instead....I don't understand that whole deal
Quote from: Le Pirate on April 27, 2009, 07:42:34 AM
pretty sad....
between the G8 and the solstice, they were starting to make some cars I would be willing to buy again
it's not like those cars won't be sold w/ a bowtie on 'em, instead.
Solstice will just remain the Saturn Sky or whatever its called.
Twenty one Thousand jobs. 21000. Dats a bunch of forclosures....
Quote from: redxblack on April 26, 2009, 08:12:13 PM
I heard GM will only be marketing four makes in the future (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac and POSSIBLY Buick). That was on NPR two months ago. Things change daily and who knows if that's still the plan. Shutting down Saturn would be a bummer - that's a product line that had been really doing well when it was just the SL-1 and SL-2 sedans.
They will make what their new owners tell them to make...Federal Government will, most likely, have a greater than 50% stake in the company.
GM is trading at just about $2; sad to remember when it was over $40.
Quote from: Sinister on April 27, 2009, 09:20:19 AM
GM is trading at just about $2; sad to remember when it was over $40.
It is up $.36 right now.
Quote from: kopfjager on April 26, 2009, 07:40:59 PM
About as much as this is a Porsche, but without the manufacturer you won't have those teams.
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/porsche.jpg)
Actually this is the Porsche/Riley engine in that Brumos car
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/rileyengine.jpg)
It is a highly modified Cayenne engine of which I will find some better pics.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/IMG00282.jpg)
My editor just finished writing a book about the GTO, and he was interviewed today on Fox Business News:
Fox Business News commentary on Pontiac's demise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxhmFTanIWE#ws-lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Do people even buy pontiacs anymore?
oh wait........
durrrrr
I remember 4 years ago I bought (for work) 20million in AAA rated short term paper for GM.
That would be a death wish now.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on April 27, 2009, 03:00:03 PM
I remember 4 years ago I bought (for work) 20million in AAA rated short term paper for GM.
That would be a death wish now.
It would be an impossibility now; there's no way short term paper for GM would be triple-A rated.
Quote from: ato memphis on April 27, 2009, 08:16:47 AM
Solstice will just remain the Saturn Sky or whatever its called.
I am been seeing tons of Skys on my commute home lately. They actually make my head turn which very few cars do these days.
Specs
$27,000
2.4 liter inline 4
141 mph Wrench limited
Horsepower: 260
Torque: 260 pound-feet
0-60 mph: 5.2 seconds
Mileage: 22/31 mpg
(http://www.agostino-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/saturns-sexy-machine-the-saturn-sky-red-line-0.jpg)
(http://www.agostino-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/saturns-sexy-machine-the-saturn-sky-red-line-1.jpg)
I saw one "riced" out today. They look so much more custom than your average Honda with body kit because the shape is more radical to begin with. I still think its a weird hobby to put tacky shit on your car, but to each their own, and I wasn't as repulsed as normal when I saw it.
Note: I did not confuse what I saw with a Lotus, but I have to admit it is the right size for a silly amount of fun.
Quote from: ROBsS4R on April 27, 2009, 03:44:21 PM
I am been seeing tons of Skys on my commute home lately. They actually make my head turn which very few cars do these days.
Specs
$27,000
2.4 liter inline 4
141 mph Wrench limited
Horsepower: 260
Torque: 260 pound-feet
0-60 mph: 5.2 seconds
Mileage: 22/31 mpg
(http://www.agostino-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/saturns-sexy-machine-the-saturn-sky-red-line-0.jpg)
(http://www.agostino-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/saturns-sexy-machine-the-saturn-sky-red-line-1.jpg)
I think that is the "red line" version. My Father-in-law has an early regular Sky, and it is not a rush to drive.
mitt
I thought the regular version was a direct competitor to the Miata, and the RedLine was the go fast version. Those numbers make the car no slouch, that's for sure.
Yeah I think that's the redline version as well.
I hear in the handling department they do slouch =)
Here is the 2007 Sky review so the numbers are a little different.
Saturn SKY Review - Kelley Blue Book (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OtB70FnrrQ#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
The Solstice and Skye got a rough start since they watered them down from the much ballyhoo'd concept car. The overly soft suspension and porky weight sort of made it a bit bland.
The current versions are better, but it would appear that any car GM makes not only has to be good, it has to be TOO good. We've grown so used to GM sucking that even a spectacular car wouldn't change the general perception. They could probably have gone a lot better had they put more money into their paint and interiors of all the cars.
good riddens
you mean "riddance"
My buddy has an early Solstice and I think it has something like 171hp. To put it in perspective, I wooped up on him with my wife's V8 Touareg...
Quote from: Sinister on April 27, 2009, 03:15:59 PM
It would be an impossibility now; there's no way short term paper for GM would be triple-A rated.
I am guessing it is Z-Rated now
[laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: NAKID on April 27, 2009, 07:35:19 PM
My buddy has an early Solstice and I think it has something like 171hp. To put it in perspective, I wooped up on him with my wife's V8 Touareg...
So your 5000lbs SUV can do 0-60 in 5.2 seconds?
bulllllshitttttt
Hello Jud, you need to improve your reading skills. I said he has an early Solstice with a 171hp engine, not the 262hp Sky that was mentioned above.
Attention to detail is key ;D
Quote from: NAKID on April 28, 2009, 05:28:06 AM
Hello Jud, you need to improve your reading skills. I said he has an early Solstice with a 171hp engine, not the 262hp Sky that was mentioned above.
Attention to detail is key ;D
I can't read!!!!!!!
at least you spelled my name right ;D
Quote from: cyrus buelton on April 28, 2009, 05:56:40 AM
at least you spelled my name right ;D
That will elevate you to BFF status, right there. I'm still lamenting spelling it right, several years ago. [cheeky]
Quote from: Le Pirate on April 27, 2009, 07:42:34 AM
pretty sad....
between the G8 and the solstice, they were starting to make some cars I would be willing to buy again
But nobody is buying the G8.
From autoblog.com:
Even though the G8 has generally been considered an excellent vehicle by the press and enthusiasts alike, it hasn't sold well in the US. About half of the 25,000 G8s shipped Stateside have yet to leave the dealer lot. The collapse of auto sales in the US have a lot to do with that, but we'd add that marketing efforts of the G8 have been less than stellar as well. It's hard to buy a G8 when you don't know it exists. March was a bright spot for the G8, though, as nearly 3,000 models were sold; the vehicle's best month ever.
I think the problem there, as the article hints at, is that it isn't just the G8 that isn't selling. Cars aren't selling. Autozone, National Tire & Battery, and the other fix-it shops are having a great time with all the vehicle repairs people are making. I read recently that the majority of folks are fixing their older cars and foregoing the luxury of getting into a new ride. I certainly am not thinking about buying a new ride anytime soon, fixing my paid off vehicle is far cheaper than buying a new car - no matter what the incentives are (up to now).
It's definitely a buyers market if you have the cash. All car dealers are practically giving away their inventory. Why buy a G8 when you can get a great deal on a Cadi?
Only if I can get a CTS-V for the price of a G8!
JM
You could probably get a V at a pretty reasonable price, not likely the same as a G8.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 28, 2009, 08:37:16 AM
But nobody is buying the G8.
From autoblog.com:
Even though the G8 has generally been considered an excellent vehicle by the press and enthusiasts alike, it hasn't sold well in the US. About half of the 25,000 G8s shipped Stateside have yet to leave the dealer lot. The collapse of auto sales in the US have a lot to do with that, but we'd add that marketing efforts of the G8 have been less than stellar as well. It's hard to buy a G8 when you don't know it exists. March was a bright spot for the G8, though, as nearly 3,000 models were sold; the vehicle's best month ever.
I read that on autoblog too...
I think the car came out at a bad time (when gas was super high, and no one wanted a V8)...plus GM did an overly shitty job of marketing it. I didn't even know it existed till I pulled up next to one in traffic one day and did a double take.
I'd love to buy one right now, but I'm not looking at a new car for another 2-3 years as I bought one a couple years ago. I'd like to help them out, but I can't afford a new car every year [laugh]
There was a debate back in '01 about whether GM should dump Olds or Pontiac so this is no suprise for me. And yes, the Chevy trucks/GM trucks thing even boggles my mind. Especially since they're the same truck, have been for years and the GM's cost more $$ than the Chevy's do. [roll]
For those that don't know, GM has been re-badging & re-bodying the same worn out chassis' and turned out homogenized bull-shit cars/trucks for like 50 years now.
Not to say anything of the Big-3 buying up engine/fuel system/driveline patents just to 'sit' on them while claiming they can't make better performing/more fuel efficient cars. [roll]
The entire US auto industry sat way too long on it's laurels (when did they get those again?!?) and now the bubble has burst. Everyone knows (if they admit is another thing) that the best cars in the world don't come from the US.
...says the man from detroit. [thumbsup]
Peter DeLorenzo wrote a very thoughtful commentary about Pontiac's demise at his Autoextremist (http://www.autoextremist.com/)site. He's always fun to read, and this column is no exception.
A couple of quotes:
Referring to the '60's heyday: "On any given day, Pontiac was always pissing someone off down at GM headquarters because they just couldn't help themselves from pregnant dog-slapping Chevrolet and sending Chevy executives whining to the 14th floor like little school girls over some perceived transgression. Everything Chevy did Pontiac would take pride in doing better, or faster, or with more style, and then they’d promote it more expertly too. And it drove Chevy executives crazy."
On recent history: "In recent years GM's maverick division has been relegated to cribbing seconds from Chevrolet or sharing with Saturn - a revolting development that must have Bunkie Knudsen and John DeLorean spinning in their graves. "
Edit: This commentary on BMW is priceless, too. [laugh]:
BMW. From "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute" File comes word that when the BMW X5 M and X6 M go on sale this fall as 2010 models, they will retail for $86,225 and $89,725 respectively (including $825 Destination & Handling). You gots to be kidding.
They are planning to sell Saturn, Hummer, and Saab, but scrap Pontiac. It seems like the Pontiac name would have more value than Hummer at the moment, and maybe even Saturn.
I could see a TPG like company buy Pontiac, devote it to street legal rwd/awd performance cars, and be feasible. I can't imagine a capital group seriously looking at buying the Hummer brand. GM would have to pay someone to take it in the current state of the economy.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on April 28, 2009, 01:55:01 PM
They are planning to sell Saturn, Hummer, and Saab, but scrap Pontiac. It seems like the Pontiac name would have more value than Hummer at the moment, and maybe even Saturn.
I could see a TPG like company buy Pontiac, devote it to street legal rwd/awd performance cars, and be feasible. I can't imagine a capital group seriously looking at buying the Hummer brand. GM would have to pay someone to take it in the current state of the economy.
mitt
Dont' forget that Saturn had a significant chunk of GM's hybrid sales. Automotive News said that in 2008, GM sold 11,454 hybrids, of which 3,205 were Saturns. The balance of GM's hybrid sales were Yukons, Tahoes, and Escalades. "A source with knowledge of GM hybrid plans said hybrid powertrains won't migrate immediately to any of GM's four surviving brands: Cadillac, Chevrolet, Buick and GMC."
It will be interesting to see if/how GM can continue to market hybrids that are not V8-powered SUVs.
meh... who cares? every model they've released in the past 15 yrs. is a re-badged grand am [puke]
So, I don't know where this fits into the whole scheme of things.
Turning the G8's into cop cars?
Linky Link (http://jalopnik.com/5230928/lapd-to-buy-chevy+badged-holden-commodore-police-cars?skyline=true&s=i)
Quote from: Super T.I.B on April 28, 2009, 08:32:27 PM
So, I don't know where this fits into the whole scheme of things.
Turning the G8's into cop cars?
Linky Link (http://jalopnik.com/5230928/lapd-to-buy-chevy+badged-holden-commodore-police-cars?skyline=true&s=i)
I'm not sure how, but apparently Holden makes a ton of money selling the G8 to Pontiac.
This could be one way to keep that cash flow going??
Buh-bye! And if it was up to me I'd let the rest of the damn company sink too before investing a single tax dollar in a horrible business model. It was losing money without the bailout and will continue after it. The company needs fixing in order to do that correctly and make it profitable again it probably is going to require bankruptacy to get out of horrible contracts. As I mentioned taxes this is probably boarderline political now so I'll leave to find the ban yourself thread.
An article I read said they have cut enough spending to lower the "break even" point to 10 MILLION cars! Holy crap! There's NO WAY they're going to make money anytime soon...
Quote from: NAKID on April 29, 2009, 04:09:11 AM
An article I read said they have cut enough spending to lower the "break even" point to 10 MILLION cars! Holy crap! There's NO WAY they're going to make money anytime soon...
That article read to say their break even point was with an
industry or national sales at 10M. I'd have to do some research, but I doubt that they have ever sold 10M worldwide in one year..
Well, that would make more sense so hopefully I read it wrong, cause that's a whole lotta shit...
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 29, 2009, 05:50:34 AM
That article read to say their break even point was with an industry or national sales at 10M. I'd have to do some research, but I doubt that they have ever sold 10M worldwide in one year..
Correct. If I remember, GM accounts for about 32% of that 10M, or 3.2Million units.
mitt
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 29, 2009, 05:50:34 AM
That article read to say their break even point was with an industry or national sales at 10M. I'd have to do some research, but I doubt that they have ever sold 10M worldwide in one year..
In the spirit of the barter system, maybe they can give out cars instead of funding the retirees' medical fund with cash.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on April 29, 2009, 05:50:34 AM
That article read to say their break even point was with an industry or national sales at 10M. I'd have to do some research, but I doubt that they have ever sold 10M worldwide in one year..
That 10M number is pretty conservative, too. Back in '05 and '06, US Car+Light Truck sales were at 17M and 16.5M, respectively.
Nobody is expecting us to hit 17M again in the next decacde, but 10M seems like a good, conservative base on which to make a US business plan.
Hmm, I've been car shopping lately... might have to see if I can find a screamin' deal on a G8 GT. Looks like fun