i'm not very mechanically inclined, but I've been noticing that even smaller displacement Japanese bikes have radiators and oil coolers (ie: sv650 has both), so i guess what is the benefit of an air cooled engine if any?
cheaper, simpler, and less parts.
less clutter
Quote from: DarkStaR on May 03, 2009, 02:23:29 PM
cheaper, simpler, and less parts.
+1.
Plus less to prep your bike for track days. ;D
BTW my Japanese GS500 was also air-cooled.
more beautiful-er [thumbsup]
The Ducati air cooled engines make the good noise.
Quote from: somegirl on May 03, 2009, 08:52:09 PM
+1.
Plus less to prep your bike for track days. ;D
BTW my Japanese GS500 was also air-cooled.
P, If your air cooled bike has an engine Thermometer how hot does the engine get like in stop and go traffic on a hot day? Dolph :)
Hot enough to give me a good excuse to pull over somewhere cool and let rush hour pass. ;) Sit on a patio, enjoy a near-beer and a burger.
Easy to maintain for me ~
JM
Quote from: DoubleEagle on May 04, 2009, 12:35:48 AM
P, If your air cooled bike has an engine Thermometer how hot does the engine get like in stop and go traffic on a hot day? Dolph :)
My s2r1000 gets in the high 250's in hot weather, sitting in traffic. I hit 257 the other day when it was 94 degrees outside. A guy I know with a harley bagger showed me his temp gauge; he had hit 365 degrees. that's hot.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on May 04, 2009, 12:35:48 AM
P, If your air cooled bike has an engine Thermometer how hot does the engine get like in stop and go traffic on a hot day? Dolph :)
usually not past 250F
Quote from: DarkStaR on May 03, 2009, 02:23:29 PM
cheaper, simpler, and less parts.
??? If that's the goal, why not use spring actuated valves too??
I just don't get you air cooled people who like it because it's more simple..
Desmo valves, trellis frame, single sided swingarm, but a radiator? NEVAH!
Quote from: sally101 on May 04, 2009, 09:24:59 AM
??? If that's the goal, why not use spring actuated valves too??
I just don't get you air cooled people who like it because it's more simple..
Desmo valves, trellis frame, single sided swingarm, but a radiator? NEVAH!
People buy what they want to buy.
What does it matter to you or I why they buy what they buy?
Its not like I knock on the window of every person who's driving a Pontiac Aztek and ask them why they bought one of the most hideous vehicles on the planet. Not my concern. Shouldn't be yours, either.
They bought their bike. You bought yours. I have mine.
Life's good.
BC.
Ditto on the Aztek
Quote from: Bladecutter on May 04, 2009, 09:32:26 AM
People buy what they want to buy.
What does it matter to you or I why they buy what they buy?
Its not like I knock on the window of every person who's driving a Pontiac Aztek and ask them why they bought one of the most hideous vehicles on the planet. Not my concern. Shouldn't be yours, either.
They bought their bike. You bought yours. I have mine.
Life's good.
BC.
Nothin personal.. I just don't get it..
And BTW it is socially acceptable to point and laugh at any and all Aztec drivers.
Quote from: sally101 on May 04, 2009, 09:41:42 AM
Nothin personal.. I just don't get it..
And BTW it is socially acceptable to point and laugh at any and all Aztec drivers.
Price and ease of maintence was also involved.
so i guess the other bikes that have the same/similar size engine but are liquid cooled just run cooler, or are there any other advantages?
Quote from: tristantumble on May 04, 2009, 02:05:38 PM
so i guess the other bikes that have the same/similar size engine but are liquid cooled just run cooler, or are there any other advantages?
the water cooled are 4 valve vs. 2 and make more HP
Every car i've ever owned has at some point had a problem with the cooling system, whether it's the radiator, worn hose, or oil in the coolant and visa-versa.
It's a pain i don't need.
In my opinion oil and water don't mix.
Oh yeah, and you save weight. = more flickability.
PS Aztec is fugly to the nth degree.
Quote from: tristantumble on May 04, 2009, 02:05:38 PM
so i guess the other bikes that have the same/similar size engine but are liquid cooled just run cooler, or are there any other advantages?
Runs cooler = you can rev higher = fuel/air mix can burn hotter = ALOT more power. (1100DS makes 90hp on a good day, Testastretta (998) makes 130+ out of the box)
Additionally the fact that you have a more narrow expected temp range allows you to design the engine for more precise tolerances.
Quote from: sally101 on May 04, 2009, 02:52:07 PM
Runs cooler = you can rev higher = fuel/air mix can burn hotter = ALOT more power. (1100DS makes 90hp on a good day, Testastretta (998) makes 130+ out of the box)
Additionally the fact that you have a more narrow expected temp range allows you to design the engine for more precise tolerances.
the Monster was made for city riding, do you really need 130HP, sure its nice for the track, but in suburbia? Plus its uncluttered and clean, water cooled engines need a fairing to hide all the hidious plumbing.
Quote from: sally101 on May 04, 2009, 09:24:59 AM
??? If that's the goal, why not use spring actuated valves too??
I just don't get you air cooled people who like it because it's more simple..
Desmo valves, trellis frame, single sided swingarm, but a radiator? NEVAH!
Half of those things you mentioned are more simple in my opinion.
Desmo is actually very simple, and I imagine it was thought of in some engineers mind before the system of overcoming heavy springs with a cam.
Also, the trellis is as simple as it comes. A bicycle uses a trellis frame. It is a bunch of triangles combined, the stiffest shape known to man, used by the Egyptians to build the pyramids. What could be more simple?
I have been over 250 one time stuck in traffic in August. Most of the time 200 is normal.
mitt
Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.
I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.
The more power an engine in a given displacement makes the more heat it generates thus requiring more cooling. Air cooling can only do so much. The reason we don't see air cooled 4 valve ducs is because they would cook themselves if those engines were putting out as much as they do when water cooled. The air cooled two valve bikes, while being simple, are a compromise.
Did someone really ask if I need 130hp? Really? Did he really ask that?
Well, need is a funny thing, and I have it.
Quote from: mitt on May 04, 2009, 08:45:25 PM
Half of those things you mentioned are more simple in my opinion.
Desmo is actually very simple, and I imagine it was thought of in some engineers mind before the system of overcoming heavy springs with a cam.
Also, the trellis is as simple as it comes. A bicycle uses a trellis frame. It is a bunch of triangles combined, the stiffest shape known to man, used by the Egyptians to build the pyramids. What could be more simple?
I have been over 250 one time stuck in traffic in August. Most of the time 200 is normal.
mitt
+1. I had someone last week bemoaning the complicated Desmo set up on my Monster and I just laughed. He was riding a Honda with VTEC.
Desmo is a really simple mechanism, it's just not as tolerant and as such needs to be checked and adjusted regularly.
Quote from: jftoha on May 04, 2009, 08:58:12 PM
Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.
I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.
Finally an honest person!
(disclaimer: I also have an MTS with an air cooled engine)
The Aztek is so ugly, I saw one at the dog pound the other day. Someone was trying to get a dog to jump in their Aztek, but the dog was trying to get back to the pound. Maybe that was an adoptibility test to see if it was a smart dog.
While some things are common between the air cooled ducatis and harleys, most are not. Kind of a bad analogy.
While HD might also produce air cooled motorcycles, I fail to see many other similarities. Output per liter? Factory equipped oil coolers on the larger displacement models? Desmodromics? Lightweight?
If you mean that the owners are analogous because they choose the easy-to-work on bike, or pay obscene amounts of money for logo'd t-shirts, then I'd agree there.
Simple these engines may be but cheap? That's just silly. Parts are crazy expensive (If you wrench yourself) and timing belts that need to be changed frequently, not the most cost effective. It sure wasn't cheap to buy either. So, I ask; which is the cheap part?
I bought this bike knowing it would be more expensive to own. Looks cool, sounds cool, handles well and is fairly dependable, my main criteria.
And yes the Aztek is one of the ugliest cars ever conceived by man, but is it uglier (is that a word) than the Toyota Prius? Honestly if you want people to get on board with this "planet saving" badge of honor shouldn't it look like an Aston Martin?
Quote from: superjohn on May 05, 2009, 05:00:41 AM
+1. I had someone last week bemoaning the complicated Desmo set up on my Monster and I just laughed. He was riding a Honda with VTEC.
Desmo is a really simple mechanism, it's just not as tolerant and as such needs to be checked and adjusted regularly.
Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has
at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.
Quote from: jftoha on May 04, 2009, 08:58:12 PM
Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.
I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.
Air compressor on wheels thats what I call HD's!
Quote from: sally101 on May 05, 2009, 08:15:53 AM
Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.
i think you would have to count the springs.
so a desmo has the actuators x 2 per valve.
a spring valve would have the actuator (tappet or other item between the cam and the valve) and the spring plus you are using power to overcome the spring tension on opening, something the desmo doesn't have to do, therefore is more efficient.
the best would be a pure hydraulic or electrical desmo valvetrain with only the valve moving. no springs. no additional moving parts. electronically controlled with no cams.
the only recipricating parts would be the crank shaft, gearbox, clutch and wheels. the only high velocity moving parts would be the valves, pistons and con rods. you could concentrate the weight loss on those compenents and get a high revving lightweight quick reponse monster of an engine. and with the right combinations make it air cooled.
Quote from: sally101 on May 05, 2009, 08:15:53 AM
Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.
I've worked on a lot of bikes, I-4's, I-twins, singles, L-twins. I came to Ducati cause it was cool, I fell in love because it's the easiest bike I've ever worked on. Maybe my head and the Duc engineers are just geared the same, but if you want to talk about ease of maintenence and logical layout the Duc is tops on my list.
Quote from: sally101 on May 05, 2009, 08:15:53 AM
Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves.
Nope.
mitt
[popcorn]
Quote from: superjohn on May 05, 2009, 05:00:41 AM
+1. I had someone last week bemoaning the complicated Desmo set up on my Monster and I just laughed. He was riding a Honda with VTEC.
So? - the VFR w/ VTEC has a valve service interval of 16k, and loads of riders have no issues never checking them. (One fellow I know has 80k on his VTEC VFR and has never looked at the valves)
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on May 05, 2009, 12:46:21 PM
So? - the VFR w/ VTEC has a valve service interval of 16k, and loads of riders have no issues never checking them. (One fellow I know has 80k on his VTEC VFR and has never looked at the valves)
Adam
My point wasn't so much a slight against VTEC or Honda, but merely an observation of someone thinking Desmo is complicated where variable valve timing is not.
I love VTEC. It makes the 3.0 in my Accord 6-spd a lot of fun.
Quote from: superjohn on May 05, 2009, 12:55:22 PM
My point wasn't so much a slight against VTEC or Honda, but merely an observation of someone thinking Desmo is complicated where variable valve timing is not.
I love VTEC. It makes the 3.0 in my Accord 6-spd a lot of fun.
Ah ok - sweet car! [thumbsup] [beer]
Adam
Sigh.
Seriously, the pro's were that it was simple, easy to work on on your own.
Simpler than the VTEC system.
To bring up that VTEC has lasted X miles without needing adjustment is not really on point.
The point was that the technology used on the air cooled engine was simple enough for a home garage to tinker with. I like the dry clutch because I can change my clutch, on my own, in a matter of minutes.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 05, 2009, 01:22:38 PM
Sigh.
Seriously, the pro's were that it was simple, easy to work on on your own.
Simpler than the VTEC system.
To bring up that VTEC has lasted X miles without needing adjustment is not really on point.
The point was that the technology used on the air cooled engine was simple enough for a home garage to tinker with. I like the dry clutch because I can change my clutch, on my own, in a matter of minutes.
Simplicity isn't always best: pushrod engines are simple, manual steering is simple, not having an air conditioner in your car is simple, cable actuated clutches are simple, not having abs is simple... Heck, a kickstarter is simple. Doesn't mean they're the best, and there's a difference between "tinkering" and "making it easy to do your own maintenance because they fall out of spec every few thousand miles"
Personally I enjoy my "ugly duck" 4V and the fact it runs at 150 degrees caning it ;D
The fact that we Ducatisti continually find excuses ("simplicity" "passion" "soul" whatever...) for our machines shortcomings never ceases to amaze me. Note the D16 runs gear driven cams, note the 848 runs a wet clutch, etc etc.
Cheers,
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on May 05, 2009, 01:30:13 PM
Simplicity isn't always best: pushrod engines are simple, manual steering is simple, not having an air conditioner in your car is simple, cable actuated clutches are simple, not having abs is simple... Heck, a kickstarter is simple. Doesn't mean they're the best, and there's a difference between "tinkering" and "making it easy to do your own maintenance because they fall out of spec every few thousand miles"
Personally I enjoy my "ugly duck" 4V and the fact it runs at 150 degrees caning it ;D
The fact that we Ducatisti continually find excuses ("simplicity" "passion" "soul" whatever...) for our machines shortcomings never ceases to amaze me. Note the D16 runs gear driven cams, note the 848 runs a wet clutch, etc etc.
Cheers,
Adam
I guess it depends on what values you prioritize as "best". In the end, people own these bikes for the only reason that matters. Because they want to and they can. [thumbsup]
Quote from: superjohn on May 05, 2009, 02:46:17 PM
I guess it depends on what values you prioritize as "best". In the end, people own these bikes for the only reason that matters. Because they want to and they can. [thumbsup]
Exactly! ;D [thumbsup] [beer]
Adam
If you read my post again you will notice that I did not make an analogy of the engines. As I stated, we like the Ducati air cooled 2 valve engines because their character and a certain degree of nostalgia. Similarly, Harley owners like their engines because of their character and also nostalgia. The reasons for liking them are very similar, the engines are not.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 05, 2009, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: jftoha on May 04, 2009, 08:58:12 PM
Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.
I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.
While some things are common between the air cooled ducatis and harleys, most are not. Kind of a bad analogy.
While HD might also produce air cooled motorcycles, I fail to see many other similarities. Output per liter? Factory equipped oil coolers on the larger displacement models? Desmodromics? Lightweight?
If you mean that the owners are analogous because they choose the easy-to-work on bike, or pay obscene amounts of money for logo'd t-shirts, then I'd agree there.
I prefer air cooled engines because water cooled engines are the work of Satan.
Seriously? Do we need a real reason?
Fine... Radiators and plumbing hoses are an abomination on an otherwise gorgeous bike. Until they find a way to make those fit the rest of the sexily narrow and vaguely industrial styling of a Monster, I want no part of them.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on May 05, 2009, 09:01:16 PM
I prefer air cooled engines because water cooled engines are the work of Satan.
Seriously? Do we need a real reason?
Fine... Radiators and plumbing hoses are an abomination on an otherwise gorgeous bike. Until they find a way to make those fit the rest of the sexily narrow and vaguely industrial styling of a Monster, I want no part of them.
Oh yeah, well ...
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk291/mediascope/Misc/aircooledduc.jpg)
;D
Adam
Frankly, one kitten per start seems like a bargain [evil]
I'm gonna run out and start my air cooled bike now.... [thumbsup]
You know, I like all kinds of bikes, and there are many types that I don't care for or are simply not interested in. But for me it's not water cooled versus air cooled, or 4 cyl versus whatever (though my favorite is the V Twin and L Twin).
Though I'm a HD guy from way back, as a rule I really don't like cruisers. I like bikes that cruise, but not bikes that are "cruisers" by design. Same for factory "customs" (?). Though there are some exceptions (precious few).
Utlimately, I just look at a bike. If I like it, I like it. If I can ride it and I like the ride, well, I like the ride.
Lot of folks out there on goofy bikes, but hey, this is one area where I believe in to each their own.
However, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me my watercooled Monster isn't as "green" and planet friendly as an aircooled bike. That would desrve a smack down of some sort.
Quote from: NorDog on May 06, 2009, 12:38:45 PM
However, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me my watercooled Monster isn't as "green" and planet friendly as an aircooled bike. That would desrve a smack down of some sort.
It isn't. The four valvers chew up too many tires. The two valver weak sauce monsters make 'em last. It's the lack of a reasonable amount of power.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on May 05, 2009, 09:01:16 PM
I prefer air cooled engines because water cooled engines are the work of Satan.
Seriously? Do we need a real reason?
Fine... Radiators and plumbing hoses are an abomination on an otherwise gorgeous bike. Until they find a way to make those fit the rest of the sexily narrow and vaguely industrial styling of a Monster, I want no part of them.
+1. It was a beyotch to try and 'hide' the wiring/plumbing on my latest custom S4Rs.
For me, I'm a simple guy (albiet quite particular) and a 2V motor just makes more sense for me. Besides, once the mileage has piled on...valve adjustments only come around once every 20K or so.
call me crazy but the plumbing, hoses, wiring, and other raw industrial "junk" on my S4R is why i think it's gorgeous. downright sexy.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on May 06, 2009, 01:09:29 PM
call me crazy but the plumbing, hoses, wiring, and other raw industrial "junk" on my S4R is why i think it's gorgeous. downright sexy.
Okay, crazy.
ha. for the watercooled bikes, i'll just take a fairing too. but that's just my thoughts.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on May 06, 2009, 01:09:29 PM
call me crazy but the plumbing, hoses, wiring, and other raw industrial "junk" on my S4R is why i think it's gorgeous. downright sexy.
I don't get it big Dan.
kinda like gorgeous ran full speed into a plumbing warehouse.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 06, 2009, 09:56:37 PM
kinda like gorgeous ran full speed into a plumbing warehouse.
A hawt-n-sexy 130hp plumbing warehouse...
haha [laugh]
Quote from: jftoha on May 04, 2009, 08:58:12 PM
Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.
I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.
I disagree. There's no excuses to be made for air-cooled engines. There are advantages / disadvantages to air or water-cooled engines. In my experience, air-cooled engine gets me ~50mpg, water cooled gets me ~40mpg. Ducati CEO also admits that the reason for air-cooled engine for the Hypermotard was simply because it can be made much lighter than water cooled engines, and that's what Ducati wants for the Hypermotard. For me, personally, it's also cleaner, less cluttered looking. It's character tends toward more torque (which is mentioned above) which is great for street. I had a Honda CBR 600RR before, and that bike is NOT made for street. My 696 is just about the most perfect bike for the street, IMHO.
Take your pick, but there are definitely honest reasons why these engines exists and will continue to be produced in the future.