Ducati Monster Forum

As a Hayden fan this is so painful to watch.  [bang]

Will he make it to the podium once this year? I think the 8-ball is saying the outlook is grim.

well...1st 2 races were chock full of bad luck for him....

oh i feel ya  :'(

this last race was even more horrible


thats ok cause im still going be cheering for him  [popcorn]

Sad to see. And the vultures are circling...lots of people hoping this (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22961.0) becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It'll pick up.  It's been an awful start to the season, but he'll get it together.  I fully expect to see him vying for 8th place by the end of the year.

If anyone needed proof that when it comes to the Duc "it's the bike", look at what Melandri is doing this year on that dogshit Kawasaki now that he's escaped the Desmosedici. 

I'll tell yah where Hayden went.  The same place Melandri went last year.  I commented about the Duc in another post... but in my opinion, its a great bike, but only in the hands of Stoner.  In anyone else's hands its more dogshit than the Kwak.

Fighting for mid pack finishes isn't much of a victory, moral or otherwise.  Give Hayden a third bike on the factory WSBK team and be done with it.

Here's a little info:
http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146290/1/head-scratching_for_hayden_and_ducati.html (http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146290/1/head-scratching_for_hayden_and_ducati.html)

I'm very puzzled how there can be trouble getting heat into the tires on a MotoGP bike, with the abundant HP available, and he's about 25 lbs heavier than Stoner.  ???

Coupled with the fact he was running the softer tires.

Never liked the dude. He's best shot is at Laguna, but doubtful considering he seems to be going backwards.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75025 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75025)

But I have read on a few occasions, the Desmosidici is a tough bike to master (we All know that) but one Writer in AMCN (Australian MotorCycle News) last year had interviewed Casey and had found getting heat into the tyres was always an issue for him as well (something Melandri had often complained about), to get the heat in you have to push the bike, but you need heat in the tyres to get the bike up to speed and push it, he had stated that you had to ride right up to the limit and then go a little bit harder and then the bike would get the tyres hot and then start to work the way it was supposed to.

The GP9 is easier to ride near that limit, the GP8 would bite back hard if not bossed around and told what to do, Look at the few times Melandri got aggressive with the bike, he started getting results, but he would crash or have a scare, and back down the back of the grid he would be for the next round. But the GP9 (while not as bad as the GP8) also loves to be pushed around and an aggressive rider will always get the best from the bike.

Could it be a simple case of Nicky has been bitten twice (granted, not his Fault) but for the time being he's just a bit spooked to try and go that extra 1 or 2 percent that's needed?

in his post crash interviews, he didn't seem scared. surprising, especially after the one in qatar. if anything, he's frustrated.

the elimination of testing, the shortening of practice times, and the smaller tire allocation this year aren't really helping nicky's typical "go do a bazillion laps" method of getting settled.

^^fixed one thing for you.

all ~true and relevant.  but i'm sure we all still underestimate the difficulty of spending 10-12 years on one bike and tire and then trying to switch.  unless you're someone in the natural talent level of a rossi (or, i dare say, spies) the transition is not going to happen gracefully overnight.  add into that a wicked 130mph highside, and you're gonna be a little gunshy.

i really don't know if he has better-than-top-6 in him on that machine.  but it's still too early to send him packing.  besides, while ducati is still riding high with stoner, you cannot run a race program based on a bike that only 1 dude in the world can ride.  seeing melandri's performance on the barely developed kawayate has got to have someone in corse saying, ok, seriously.  the problem is us.

One's gotta question Ducati's development strategy here.  I mean, the GP9 is great n' all with Casey on it, but what happens if he's not there?  They'll have half a decade of development into a bike that is the least user-friendly thing in existence.  If Capi, Hayden and Melandri can't get that thing to move at anywhere near world-class pave mebbe it's not because those three at talentless hacks and mebbe it's cuz the bike ain't easy to ride.  Compare that with Honda and Yamaha, who put together an all-round package that anyone can go fast on ('cept Toseland -- he sucks donkey balls) regardless of riding style.   

If and when Ducati doesn't have Casey any longer, they're going to have to completely re-learn how to engineer a racebike.  That's not a good idea. 

Edit:  damn, gm2 just said all that.  Bastid.

imagine the bricks they were shitting when there was briefly talk of stoner's wrist killing his whole season.

You know the entire Ducati/Stoner thing has always had me wondering.  Clearly he's the only one that can go fast on it.  So it suits his style.  But when the new bike came out it was his first year with Ducati.  He wasn't Casey Stoner - World Champion yet.  So it's not like they set out to build the bike specifically for him.  They had no idea he was going to dominate on it....given his track record. 

So the question is do you really think the Ducati is really built around Stoner?  Or is it a quirky bike that only he understands? 

What's driving the development?  Clearly at this point it may be Stoner since he's getting on well with the Duc.  But it's a chicken/egg situation.  What came first?

Seems to me they made a bike that Stoner happens to ride really fast (accidentally as he was new to the team)...unfortunately no one else can. So now they're stuck, they have to continue to develop the bike since Stoner can ride it and he won the championship on it and is always very competitive. If they change course too much in their development they might make a bike that Stoner can't ride. Unfortunately all that development seems useless for any other rider.

stoner was third choice for the first 800 ride.  it was not built around him.  however they had to have some clue that his riding style and history would hopefully suit the bike.  the same way they did with hayden, their second choice in 2007.

btw, there's been mention of 'get rid of hayden, put bayliss back on that thing'... bayliss has never been on that thing.  there's no way to know that he wouldn't be in the same boat as everyone else.

Right...he's Bayliss!! He can ride anything.  ;D  ;)

If that was the case, then Troy would have had a long and successful MotoGP career.  Instead he floundered, mostly, with Ducati for two seasons and then wrapped up his short stint with Honda, before breaking his arm and heading back to WSBK.

Um...lose your sense of humor somewhere today?  ;)

Don't you dare forget coming back for one last MotoGP race to absolutely stomp the make the beast with two backs out of the whole field.  I wanna bear that man's spawn.



Stoner was third choice?  It was Rossi, then who?, then Stoner.

Wasn't it Rossi, Hayden, then Stoner?

Oh, I guess that's right there in his post.  I dohnt reed sew gud.

me.... I was sloppy seconds

I said no because I've never been on a track. They sent me a cool kickstand puck as a thank you gift.

gibernau, hayden, stoner...

For the 1st year of the 800cc? They alread had him from the previous year didn't they, and he retired?

iirc, he asked for a significant sum of money that ducati wasn't willing to pony up (for him).

ducati then went to talk to nicky, ended up matching what honda was offering him, but hayden decided to stay with honda.

then they went to stoner and got him for a song.

I too thought Nicky would be doing better this year. I always thought that Casey was more comfortable on a bike that moved around than his team mates, and that Nicky coming from dirt track would also be able to make the most of a bike that feels a little loose.

To his credit though, it is a new bike and he has taken some really hard hits this year, so I'm not going to be too hard on him. I hope he's able to pull it together in time to chalenge for some podiums and hopefully some factory Ducati 1-2 finishes  [thumbsup]

 [thumbsup]

Do you suppose Casey is humming that tune now?

I think the season is still young, and Nicky will get far better if he keeps his head in it.  I think it is more mental at this point than physics of the bike or himself.  2 potentially lethal crashes in consecutive races has to crush the psyche of any racer, let alone one on a new team.

mitt

https://www.mynrma.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/mynrma/hs.xsl/rise_of_casey_stoner.htm (https://www.mynrma.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/mynrma/hs.xsl/rise_of_casey_stoner.htm)
"Stoner was actually Ducati's third choice as a rider to partner Loris Capirossi this year. Its other 2006 rider, Spain's Sete Gibernau, put an unjustifiably high price on his services for 2007, while 2006 World Champion, Nicky Hayden, had already signed up again for Honda when Ducati approached him. So Stoner, unhappy at his Honda team and looking for an opportunity, found it when Ducati found him"

I think its way to early to say Nicky isn't up to the Ducati. I definatley think he will get on top of the problems that bike is giving him and make his way up the feild.
Don

You know, after stepping back from all of this, I have come to the point we've all been missing.  Nicky Hayden isn't a front runner no matter any which way you spin it.  He never has been since leaving AMA.  Say what you will about a half season string of good, but not great form in 2006 ( and the tail end of 2005).  Nicky is a US rider... so for that we should support him heavily, but acting as if he's ever going to win races or even podium on any frequent basis is just plain nuts.  Fact is, Nicky is a rider of good-but-not-great talent that practices his ass off harder than anyone else to stay competitive.  I applaud that and I like the kid, but he's never been spectacular at the MotoGP level and won't be.  He's better than the average midpack rider, but he's not good enough to be a regular front runner either.  Hard to classify the kid.

That said, I hate to see him wallow with Ducati at the back of the grid and I hope he puts something together, but that something isn't going to be terribly spectacular in my opinion anyway.  The title of this thread is "Where have you gone Mr. Nicky Hayden?", but its not like he was a former world champion or anything... oh wait.   ;D  The stirring of the pot goes round and round, round and round, round and round.

I mostly agree, particularly with the top 4 we have right now (if Lorenzo learns how to stay on the bike) and given that they're on 800cc bikes that require a lot of electronics and technical development.  That said . . .


Hayden 2006

3d
2d
3d
2d
5th
3d
2d
1st
7th
3rd
1st
9th
4th
5th
5th
DNF
3rd

That's 10 podiums.  Even if Rossi hadn't had a dogshit season that year, Hayden was still a front runner and a constant threat to podium.

Yes, but I did disclaim by saying "Say what you will about a half season string of good, but not great form in 2006 ( and the tail end of 2005)."  His first half of 2006 was good, but he tailed off that year falling back towards the results that have marked his entire GP career.  If you throw out that run of form, he's better than ordinary, but by no means any type of consistant threat for the crown.

It's really hard to say.  He's been riding a bike for the last two years that was (a) made for a rider 50 lbs lighter than him and (b) designed for those who grew up on 125s and 250s.  Hard to say what he woulda been like in the last two years if he wasn't riding the Pedrosa 800.  And now he's jumped on the Ducati -- the bike that makes great riders into rank amateurs.

What do you think he'd be like today if he were on the M1?  He might end up be the third Yami on the grid most days, but he'd be top 5 pretty consistently.

you're forgetting honda trying to reinvent the wheel w/ nicky's bike post-laguna (*cough*sabotageclutch*cough*) .

what, a clutch in the middle of the engine gets super hot and doesn't work?  crazy talk!

it's got to be frustrating as hell for him
but, he's not a quitter, so i'll still be cheering for him :)

GO NICKY!   [moto]

But now Hayden is teh suxxor, w00t!! ;D

I have to disagree.  Nicky isn't a head case and doesn't get mental.  He needs seat time and a crazy amount of laps in testing to get issues sorted.  Lack of seat/race time has more to do with it than his head.

Julian Ryder gives some good talk about Nicky on the newest SoupKast.

I am still behind him just a bit frustrated!

I suppose Stoner can pretty much name his price now.  What if he leaves or gets injured?  What will Ducati do?  I'm surprised that they are content to put all their eggs in the Stoner basket.  He's undeniably fast, but he won't be around forever.

I don't think they are putting all their eggs in Stoner's basket.  They hired Nicky for a reason.  Besides being, usually consistent, he's a development rider.  He's said in interviews that they (he and Ducati) want to develop the bike so more riders have success on it.  I don't think it's "Stoner's bike" so much as it's a quirky bike only Stoner can ride.

But they are lucky the got Stoner.  Because the bike was developed before they signed him....and by luck he's the one guy that can ride it.  Can you imagine where they'd be had they not signed him?   

That may be true, but Stoner is young.  Assuming they pony up to keep him around, they'll have him for the next 7-10 years on that bike if he rides a full career.  Might as well develop around him.

Yeah, that makes sense--he is quite young.  Still, prototypes are expensive enough already.  A prototype that only one guy in the world can ride fast is a pretty risky investment.

i wouldn't expect the current 800cc formula to stick around for another 7-10 years.

there's already been talk of doing away w/ the "rider aids" and, if you believe melandri, the ducati gp bike was built around the electronics (much like a modern warplane) and cannot be ridden without them.

mamola said the exact same thing when he rode the 800.  he said it was a monster "barely under control by electronics"

...if only one of us could get a ride on one and find out. Anyone up for changing careers and becoming a "Moto Journalist"? ;D

I would LOVE to be a Moto Journalist. Would the DMF like to request "Press Credentials" for me?  ;D

you'd love to be a moto journalist until the day you drop the million dollar bike  ;)

that's Spidey's job!

That happens all the time. ;D

Julian said something similar. Something like Ducati's philosophy is to make too much power and then manage it...

That's pretty much been their MO for this series.  Make a rocketship engine and then try to figure out the rest later.

Would be interesting to see what features actually make their way from the 2009 GP Desmo to those bikes the rest of the world buys.  I may be able to understand and see the merit in things like radial brakes, swingarms, etc., but how MotoGP traction control would ever make technical or price-point sense on a streetbike is a mystery.

Ultimately, it seems that MotoGP bikes are becoming mostly very fast billboards.....

racing budgets often come out of the marketing budgets... they've always been very fast billboards.

...production-based machines included. Riders too:
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Tifa269/altro875.jpg)

OMG...is it....no, it couldn't be... but then again....he almost looks like he's smiling a little bit.  ???

And 51kg? With all his gear on or is he fattening up?

well...traction control trickled from GP bikes to production based superbikes ala WSBK and so forth and has now started in some degree or format to trickle into the showrooms on Ducati's and Suzuki's...so you tell me...Honda is putting out ABS on CBR's...it isn't an instant trickle down thing...but it is coming down the pike for sure...just takes more time with electrical stuff in comparo to proven mechanical things.

that's an old pic (michelin patches).

I would say so, since his race number is 26 in that...last year he was #2 and this year #3...so it musta been 2007 or perhaps 2006

First of all, any trickle down from MotoGP is going to take some time. Frankly, the class is meant as a prototype and experimentation class with the very best of the best overcoming the rulebook "restrictions" with creative engineering and design improvement. This is the way it is meant to be. MotoGP is NOT a race on Sunday sell on Monday class. Never has been, never will be. That's what WSBK/WSS is all about.

Second, we see trickle downs on a constant basis. Radial master cylinders, monoblock radial mount calipers, the new R1 is a great example. But it goes back to point one.

As for Nicky, while I am not a fan, the 2 crashes have done nothing to cement his confidence in abike that takes a TON of confidence to ride. Hewill get there. It's just going to take longer wit the shortened practices. Especially for a guy who is all about constant practice. But I also agree that Nicky is not a front of the pack rider in MotoGP. But I do see him spending alot of time dicing it up with Colin and Randy on a regular basis later this year. Maybe grabbing a few podiums. But he is a long shot for another championship. Just my thoughts...

Je comprends....was musing about what "developing a bike" is supposed to mean (i.e., nothing - as very little trickles down from MGP in less than 10 years to the bikes that guys like me ride, and most of that is overkill anyway - like radial brakes); ergo, MotoGP is first and foremost an entertainment and marketing vehicle.

Not complaining - I enjoy motorcycle racing....but is Nicky Hayden (and others) just a test pilot ("hey Nikkisan, try this bike with the clutch in the middle of the engine")?  We shouldn't be too perplexed when he/they crash and burn or finish last on a regular basis.  They're not supposed to win - which makes Hayden's championship that much sweeter.

On the other hand there are a very special few, such as Rossi in this era, who are true racers, working and making suggestions to improve their machines to win championships, not "develop" a better clutch or braking system.

That's ridiculous if you don't think these teams aren't trying to win.  You can develop components for a bike and still expect to win.  Do you think Ducati is aiming for the back of the grid with that carbon fiber chassis or swingarm?  They are trying to make the bike more ridable and stable.  These teams aren't expecting their bikes to go "boom" when they hit the track.  Sometimes they do, but winning = sponsorships and following, which means you are doing your job better than the next guy.  Blame the engineers for not properly developing the clutch in the first place, but Honda is trying to win every week, trust me.

Sure, prototype racing has a measure of muscle flexing and posturing between the manufacturers, but in the end, they want to win.  The technology trickles down faster than you think.  I for one am all for that technology anyway.  I don't see how "overkill" is a bad thing when it improves any aspect of the performance on the bike you're riding.  Brakes that stop a bit faster or fade less are surely better than brakes from 10 years ago yes?  Hop on my 800 monster, and then hop on an 1198 and you tell me which brakes you want in a lifesaving stop.  Same could be said for traction control.  Do you want a literbike with it, or without it?

All racing of any level is an entertainment and marketing event.  Prototype series are there specifically to see how far the limits can be taken and then pass on pieces of what you learn to production models.  WSBK is an entertainment and marketing tool the same as MotoGP, it just has more relevance to us since we can purchase the basic bikes they ride.

Rossi is good at helping develop a bike, but Burgess is just as important to that process from the garage perspective.  Yamaha didn't just tweak the old M1.  That bike has definately been "developed."  That bike had to have a complete chassis re-devolopment for the Bridgestone tires.  The old chassis was built for Michelin, and while they were able to get good performance out of that chassis, you didn't see the potential until the following year after they made changes for the Bridgestones.  That is just one example, but it gets developed.  They don't just turn a few screws.  Another would be the redesign of the cooling system on the Yamaha after repeated overheating issues on the bike in years past.

Be careful, Nicky.  Bayliss is always looming in the background.

http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146437/1/troy_bayliss_to_test_ducati_gp9.html (http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146437/1/troy_bayliss_to_test_ducati_gp9.html)

I doubr Bayliss would ruin his "legacy" by going back to MotoGP.

I do hope his testing will help with the taming of the beast so that other riders will have at least somewhat of a chance to ride the thing.

I agree, but that's no reason not to feed the rumor mill.   ;D


+11tyb

(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/AA047264.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=15D3B18EC0AC0F1C3F4C4C2CECDFAD7FE30A760B0D811297)

As motogpmatters.com pointed out, three world champions haven't gotten along very well with the Ducati (Capirossi, Melandri, and Hayden).  If Bayliss doesn't get along with it either, maybe he can make some good development suggestions that would benefit Hayden.

Stoner: Hayden needs confidence (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75075)

They should have an article "Stoner: Hayden needs to learn how to wear a hat properly"

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

YES

***********

Back to my last post in this thread, I said it was all mental too, so it isn't just me thinking that he has head problems after 2 massive crashes.

mitt

i think the trickle down is there but it will take years, i think the carbon frame will eventually come to showroom liter bikes.

i could see ducati doing this with another iteration of the d16 if they decide to do so, sorta like the mvagusta CC models at 125k each.  if they wanted they  could make a limited production of say 50 and do the same thing.

but i think it will literally take 10 years or more before you see that on the equivalent of a 15,000 1098 or something like that, but i don't see it out of the realm of possibility either.

Ducati is finally starting to realize that it's not going to do them any good to have a bike that only one rider can operate successfully.

http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146657/1/nicky_hayden_gets_new_crew_chief.html (http://www.crash.net/MotoGP/News/146657/1/nicky_hayden_gets_new_crew_chief.html)

Good to see them trying somethign new.  [thumbsup]

How can people not like Hayden? Other than wearing his hat kinda funny, he seems like a real stand-up guy:

"I can't say I don't have enough good manpower behind me and it has been encouraging to see Ducati trying everything and working so hard to help get me in a situation to deliver.

“The team is very important in our sport but it is really up to the rider to do his part and make the difference, so I hope I can step up and do my part soon!” admitted the 2006 world champion.

Well, if anything an English speaking crewchief will definately help Hayden.  Its also interesting that when they speak of trying to change the bike, they're more focused on electronics changes.  Kinda sad the sport has come to that imo.

not the sport, that bike.

and i didn't realize that

"the team's track engineer Cristhian Pupulin - who has doubled up as crew chief to Loris Capirossi, Marco Melandri and Hayden since 2006..."

so one of the number crunchers has been crew chief.  gosh, i can't believe that didn't work out.

that sounds like a good plan. Collaboration. What a concept!
A fking translator for Nicky, what a concept!

The line that stuck out for me was, "...we have 5 bikes on the track for the first time..."
Seems like they're recognizing this could go big either good or bad.

either way, they have a shitton of money on the track every race and only 1 bike that's doing anything