Ducati Monster Forum

when you push the bar to lean the bike over, do you keep pushing the bar thru the turn or once leaned over do you re set the wheel in teh direction of the turn?

It's not as conscious an act as you would think. 

You push the bar for the initial input (e.g. for right hand turn push right).  Then hold that pressure lightly on the bar throughout the turn.  If you need to lean more, push more.  But you definitely don't want to "reset" the wheel in the other direction.  Once you've given it your initial input, you shouldn't really have to think about whether you're pushing on the bar or not.  The key is keeping your grip on the bars really, really light.  IF you have them gripped hard, you're going to accidentally give some mid-turn input.  That will upset the bike and screw up your line.  The lighter you are on teh bars, the more stable it will feel and more easily you will be able to respond with an additional push if you need to lean a bit more. 

Remember that the "push" on the bars is more of a push forward than a push downward.  In fact, "push" is probably not the best word to use.  You're not manhandling the bike or making anything as dynamic as a push.  You're just putting pressure on the bars. 

thank you

I'm really trying to consciously counter-steer a bit more as I'm progressing with my learning (been riding about a month so far...) but man it's such a huge mind-make the beast with two backs (can I say that here?). I know on the one hand counter-steering just sort of "happens" whether you like it or not, but on the other I've gotta believe controlling that input consciously has to lead to better control and stability.

I haven't had the balls to go fully leaned into a corner yet but I've been riding locally with boots/jeans mainly recently. I'm going to give it a spirited attempt next weekend up at Angeles Crest or Rock Store with some leathers on and hopefully I'll have some positive experiences to report!

With one month of riding experience, I would recommend that you just ride around, not worry about hauling ass around corners yet.  Angeles Crest and Rock Store aren't really the place for beginners to be riding, lots of people up there hauling banana's, if someone breezes you and you aren't expecting it, you could very well ride right off the road.   There really is no substitute for seat time.   Some good instruction, maybe even a riding school would do wonders also. 

Careful now.

I appreciate your concern and to be honest my trip up to Angeles Crest did feel like it was right at the edge of my comfort zone. The freeway ride there was the most unnerving actually. Maybe you're right, maybe I'll give it a few months of tooling around to get nice and comfortable. Another SoCal'r nice to meet you!

I know your experience will differ from mine, but I had the same desire to learn quick last year.  Some of what you said certainly rung a bell and brought back "relatively" recent memories.   I managed two "get off's" last year trying to learn cornering on my own.  My problem was that once I started to corner I discovered that I freakin loved it.  I pushed harder and harder and before long I was in over my head.  It wasn't so much the concept of counter steering or basic cornering technique that did me it, it was the hidden dip at the apex.  As I found out to my regret you can be carving around a turn with no problem and then hit sand/gravel, oncoming traffic in your lane, a rough patch of pavement, etc without warning.  I jumped into riding a fairly technical road and handled the trip in with no problems.  On the trip out though, a cut in the pavement created a dip which "looked" level with the rest of the road.  It wasn't.  I got thrown off of my line and then fixated on a ditch, froze, and rode right in.   Nothing like going airborne, hearing your bike crash and then seeing sky, mud, sky, mud, sky, mud...mud...mud...mud to put how much you don't know into perspective.  I was lucky, I came out ok and other than a bent handle bar from going over the front, the bike was fine. 

Had I had just a bit more experience, I could have avoided the crash all together.  In fact, several months later did hit gravel in a tight turn, lost my front tire, but was still able to save it.  The only difference between the two events was experience.  If I was to do it over again I would have gone much slower (riding and learning).  Practice turns on roads that you know well and leave yourself a huge margin for error.   The fact is you will be surprised on the street every so often...an oversized truck coming down a mountain road 1/2 in my lane at the apex of a blind right is a recent memory.  If you ride anywhere near the edge of your ability these little surprises will cause you considerable grief.  Check out Twist of the wrist II, Sport Bike Riding Techniques, and Proficient Motorcycling....all good reading.

BTW, I'm a beginner like you.  Ive been at this for a year (14,000 total miles) and every time I master a technique that I originally thought was hard, I discover two more things I'm doing wrong or need to work on.   

Oh yea, as to the original question, according to Twist of the Wrist, once you set your lean angle by initially counter-steering, it is the rear of the bike that actually controls the turn.  Check out the folks holding a wheelie around a corner for a good example of this.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that this should be the case, but then again, I'm no physicist. 

I'm an instructor at a performance riding school and one of the advanced techniques that we teach people is to countersteer out of the turn. This is when you are ready to stand the bike back up and come out of the turn. This is what racers do on the powerful bikes because you have to muscle the bike back upright as much as possible while getting on the throttle so that you have more contact patch for traction. You can do it to and you don't have to be hard on the throttle. I recommend starting out by giving it a light input at first until you start feeling comfortable because the bike wants to stand up on its own due to the gyroscopic forces. So start out lightly and push on the opposite bar that you did to turn in. You will feel instantly how the bike responds and it will then make sense.
What Spidey said is spot on and I want to stress even more that you should stay relaxed and keep your inputs minimal while cornering. Keeping your upper body relaxed is very important. Weight your pegs, shift your body, but keep your torso and arms relaxed. 
If you practice counter steering in and out of turns, you will feel what the bike is doing and it will make more sense. [beer]

TNGB, I wouldn't try to countersteer upon exit of the turn just yet.  Like fasterblkduc said, that is an advanced technique.  No need to complicate things for now. 

For now, I'd just work on an affirmative countersteering input to enter a turn, and consistent but light pressure on the bar throughout the turn.   Make sure that before you initiate your turn, you complete your braking and get your body and head position set.

awesome thank you again

As I understood it, depending on the setup of a bike, the bike can require constant input to keep it on line. Meaning that (without consciously doing anything) you'll maintain pressure on the bars to keep the bike on the desired line.

Smart people, thoughts?

FYI - this is all theory to most riders so don't feel like you have to do anything different.

Yes, you are giving it inputs without realizing it. In fact, overthinking the whole countersteering process can be counterproductive in my opinion. Without even knowing it, you are holding the bike on line. For argument's sake, pretend that you suddenly disappeared while cornering. The bike would stand itself up and start to go in a straight line like when you were a kid and hopped off of your bike. "ghostriding" Is what we used to call it...remember that?

I'm not a good writer so when trying to explain things via keyboard, my thoughts jump around. Spidey made me realize that I got ahead of myself a little. If I were talking to you face to face, I would not have made it sound like you should go out and try countersteering in and out of corners yet. Get comfortable with turning in and just letting your instincts take over for coming out of a turn because you will intuitively do the right thing. When you have done this for a while, and are comfortable, try the countersteering out of the turn. This method just kind of ties it all together...make sense?

Over thinking is counterproductive in general. ;)

Yep, thanks.

I've been consciously counter steering for some time but I don't always consciously think of counter steering to "un-lean". I was just remembering some reviews I've read where the journos have said they've had to hold the bike in a turn to stop it either falling down or straightening up.

how do you guys stand the bike back up post turn if you're not countersteering?   You're certainly not just leaning your body.

how do you transition from a right to a left turn?


it's the easiest and fasted way to change the direction/angle of the bike, so why not learn to do it earlier rather than 'just riding' and doing it right later?

I think there is perspective involved in all of this. ;D

I mean consciously counter steering, I know I'm using counter steering but I'm not consciously doing it most times unless I think about it. I've read (don't remember which book) that it's good to practice actively using & thinking about counter steering in & out of a corner so I practice it now.

Please don't start the body steering discussion!  [roll]

;)

LIke fasterbikeduc mentioned, the bike will stand itself up just fine if you just STOP countersteering.  The advanced technique he was going over was counter-counter steering, which is basically what you do when you transition quickly from a lefty to a righty.  For example:

You have a nice long straight-away going into a sweeping left turn (about 90 degrees).  You set your body and push forward on the left handlebar while leaning left to hit the turn.  At a moderate pace, all you need to do is stop pressing on the left bar or verry gently press forward on the right bar to make the bike stand up. 

Now, take that same sweeping left hand turn and add a right hander just past the apex of the left.  At the same moderate speed, you would press the left going into the left turn and as you hit the transition, simply press forward on the right and regain your casual grip on the left while leaning to the right.  All the same applies at a higher speed, you just do it with more force and more quiickly. 

FTR, I've had my bike for just under a year now (first bike, put about 7k on it) and figured I'd share a little ride experience from last weekend.

We were running a pretty quick pace and none of the fun turns were until about 10 miles in so everyone's tires were good and warm by the time we hit the good stuff.  A guy on a VERY well tuned GSXR1000 was leading the whole day and I was trying to keep him in my sights at the bare minimum, let alone keep up.  Long story short we hit a series of good 80+mph sweepers with visibility for miles and the second or third curve in, I just decided to brake a little later than normal and stay on his heels.  Anyone ever heard of the perfect hit in golf?  This was the perfect turn.  I'm sure there were a ton of things I could have improved upon and despite the 1/4" chicken strip left on the rear tire, I'm sure I could have taken it faster and harder, but just that one turn I could feel every little thing the bike was doing.  I could feel the front forks squishing around.  I could almost hear the rear gripping, and nothing short of a 150lb whitetail could have budged me from that line.  7k in a year isn't that many miles, but keep riding and the little things start adding up. 

I step on the outside peg and push the bike up with my outside arm (which probably countersteers it up), while straightening the arm.  It's not an unconsious move.  In fact, it's a deliberate move to stand it up, but it's not consciously countersteering.  I never really thought about it as countersteering, but that sounds right.


Poorly.   [laugh]

I disagree with the continued pressing or continued countersteering idea.   the force required on the bars to keep a turn is about two fingers worth...which you need on the bar to keep the throttle open anyway.    The difference between the amount of pressure on the bar to turn the bike and the amount needed while leaned over if no change of direction is desired is a very big difference.   

I think you may find that if you are continuing to push the inside bar while leaned over what you are actually doing is a combination of pushing down on the bar instead of forward (thus applying pressure in a direction that doesn't move the bar), and countering the action with the other bar   (which a lot of people do when too tense).

Should be able to let go, or almost let go of the left bar after reaching the desired lean angle (not recommending this on the street).  Veeeery little input needed until time to change direction of travel/angle of bike.

On the street, it's just not all that common to turn in hard enough or transition fast enough to really feel this which is why a lot of people say they don't notice it.

We brought it up a while ago with countersteering....the highway lane change drill.     You can really crank on the bars at 60 mph.   Like really crank.   The bike changes direction and angle veeeeery quickly.   Much more quickly than you might expect.     Now to get it back upright you need to do the same amount of leverage countersteering the other way.   If you kept pushing the original way, or simply stopped pushing the original way, the bike isn't going to stand up...it's going to arc off into the guard rail.

bikes are very stable at speed.

Handy when there is an obstacle you cannot ride over on the highway.    Or a deer, or a stopped car in a corner....

Ok, great points being made here, and we are way into the "over thinking" territory here [cheeky]

Statler, you are correct about the bike being more stable with speed and this brings up even another point [roll]. The faster the bike is traveling, the harder you have to make your inputs because the rotating mass has even more power to keep the bike traveling straight ahead. You have to work harder to overcome the gyroscoping force so corner speed is a major factor in all of this.

Let's simplify this for those wanting to understand countersteering in and out of the corner...you guys already do it. Some are already concious of it, and some are not. Next time you go ride some twisties, just start thinking about what you are doing as you do it. You will be pushing on the bar for the direction that you want to go even when coming out of the corner. The countersteering out is less of an input because the bike wants to straighten up on it's own. You can give it some input to see how it feels but this is a more advanced technique that is done to force the bike upright quicker so that the throttle can be applied sooner/harder. Just go give it a whirl...just push a little on the outside bar when you want to stand the bike back up [moto]

and is allways the case, these discussions are more fun over drinks in person while watching racing.   Cheers, guys.   [beer]

True...so fly over here, and I'll buy you a drink [beer]

make the beast with two backs that.  You guys fly here and I'll buy the drinks.  I'll even supply the racing.   [drink]

Those sissy GP guys? ;D

I guess it's because wide bars require so little input at speed, but I really only consciously notice countersteering when I'm riding a bike with clip-ons.

To put the matter of continuous (all the way through the corner) counter steer to rest, there is an experiment you can do.  Please don't get carried away with this and do it on a safe road with good sight lines and at a reasonable speed and with plenty of room and no traffic. 

Ok, disclaimer done.....Once you counter steer into a long sweeping corner....interstate clover leaf etc.....take your left hand off and with just the tips of two fingers, maintain a constant throttle.  Without counter steering and with a constant throttle which maintains your exact speed, the bike will continue turn without any additional steering input.  It won't deviate from the original turn in angle until you add throttle...which will slowly stand the bike up or until you counter steer out of the turn.   

One of the things I've been working on this season is making sure that when I countersteer it's with a  light touch and that I'm pushing the bars specifically AWAY from me and not down.
I try to hold off on my turn until a bit later and then make a consciouses effort to steer the bike quickly into the turn by pushing the inside bar away while not gripping the bar tightly at all.
I find that thinking the process through SOME of the time helps when you want it to be an "automatic" action like riding the twisties quickly with my buds.

One other thing that I've done the whole time I've ridden is to pick up technique books (all of them) and work on a specific aspect of my riding for an entire season.
Be it turning in, counter steering, weighting pegs, looking far ahead while turning, panic breaking, whatever, i find it easier to drill that specific skill for the whole season and move on to something else the next.

jimi