Posting for a friend.
Long story short.....something backed out of the clutch/basket and got hung up in the case. Locked the transmission. Luckily he was at a stop light when it locked up.
Fixable....or need new case?
Bike is 2005 S2R 800.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3555/3570535855_1d12a1affd.jpg?v=0)
Any other damage?
What happened with the hub?
Not sure on the other damage. Haven't seen it yet. He said springs are bent and there is some clutch related damage. The case is the biggest issue though. Dealer gave him an estimate of $8k to fix. Which is crazy considering how much the bike cost brand new.
$8k to fix is absolutely absurd, i don't care what it is. that's less than i paid for my complete bike...
what could possibly need replaced? At absolute worst it's an entire new gearbox and clutch assembly... $8k? no way.
Cheap? No way.. but not $8k...
This is my bike. Thanks to Mikeb for posting. The clutch basket is pretty much toast, I'll post pics of it this evening. Main cause was the main nut backing off. Not sure how the clutch basket springs broke, but oh well. After talking with some people, I believe that it can be repaired. And that's exactly what I'm going to do. Worst case scenario, I need to replace the engine, which is what it needs right now.
Not entirely thrilled to have this type of failure on a 2006 bike with 3400 miles (yes, 34 hundred) and the response I got from Ducati, but that is another thread. [bang] I'm just thankful it let go when it did. I was 60 seconds from zipping along the interstate at 70! :o Priority is trying the repair and getting her running, before a terminal case of Lackus Ofus Ridingus Ducatiitis sets in!
Dave
There are S2R800 engines available periodically, and I've also seen S2R1K engines for sale as well on eBay, there are parts bikes out there so good luck I hope you get her fixed and also hope that it doesn't happen to me on my '06 S2R800 with ~6k. Probably a freak occurrence but tragic to say the least.
check this out
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20740.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20740.0)
That pic is too much of a zoom. Is the damage to the case cover? If so, they can be picked up on eBay for under $100.
What on earth could cause this?
Wet clutch bike with 3400 miles... nothing in that area has probably ever been touched since that bike left the factory.
I call manufacturer defect/quality control issue on this one.
Here is a wider shot:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=582)
And the back of the clutch basket, all but one of the springs are broken/missing:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=583)
And one final kick to the smalls , a little gift from the dealership when I picker her up:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=584)
So here she sits, buried in garage crap and boxed in my the lawnmower :'(:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=585)
I'm going to try the repair this weekend. I just wish I could find an aftermarket supplier of a clutch basket. It sickens me to think DNA will get one more penny from me, even if it's for necessary parts. >:(
Quote from: corey on May 28, 2009, 01:03:19 PM
What on earth could cause this?
Wet clutch bike with 3400 miles... nothing in that area has probably ever been touched since that bike left the factory.
I call manufacturer defect/quality control issue on this one.
That's exactly what I told the head Tech Cust Service Mgr of DNA. He said the clutch nuts loosening up is
NOT happening as widespread as I have been told. [roll] Then he said, "sorry, you're out of warranty. Doesn't matter if there are only 3400 miles.Have a nice day" >:( [bang] And for the record, and Mikeb can attest, these 3400 miles have been very very easy miles. (I ride like an old man! ;D I'll even post my chicken strips to prove it! ;D)
I've heard of clutch basket spring failures on S2R800's, dunno how prevalent they are.
Check out our Marketplace, Parts for sale, you may find some help there.
I'd be worried about scrap inside the pocket of the trans bearing area, where it's cracked.
That shifter detent arm doesn't look so hot, but as long as it still pivots, and the spring isn't injured, it should be OK.
8k is probably the cost for a new motor, lazy bastards probably dont want to open er up to fix it.
Quote from: EEL on May 28, 2009, 05:28:14 PM
8k is probably the cost for a new motor, lazy bastards probably dont want to open er up to fix it.
No, $8K was parts/labor to tear down, replace both crankcase halves and replace every thing in the clutch housing. :o
good lord...
Quote from: Dave328 on May 28, 2009, 06:59:56 PM
No, $8K was parts/labor to tear down, replace both crankcase halves and replace every thing in the clutch housing. :o
I just looked up on Ducati Omaha, OEM cases for an '04 800 engine are ~$4k.
OEM clutch basket (which has the primary gears with it, matched gearset) is ~$750.
Plus other parts, plus sales tax....$5.5k-6k in parts *easy*.
Second-hand complete engine is a way cheaper way to go.
Quote from: Dave328 on May 28, 2009, 04:25:52 PM
Here is a wider shot:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=582)
And the back of the clutch basket, all but one of the springs are broken/missing:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=583)
And one final kick to the smalls , a little gift from the dealership when I picker her up:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=584)
So here she sits, buried in garage crap and boxed in my the lawnmower :'(:
(http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=585)
I'm going to try the repair this weekend. I just wish I could find an aftermarket supplier of a clutch basket. It sickens me to think DNA will get one more penny from me, even if it's for necessary parts. >:(
That's exactly what I told the head Tech Cust Service Mgr of DNA. He said the clutch nuts loosening up is NOT happening as widespread as I have been told. [roll] Then he said, "sorry, you're out of warranty. Doesn't matter if there are only 3400 miles.Have a nice day" >:( [bang] And for the record, and Mikeb can attest, these 3400 miles have been very very easy miles. (I ride like an old man! ;D I'll even post my chicken strips to prove it! ;D)
Also boxed in with your Ferrari, I'm having trouble finding sympathy. Kidding, I also have an s2r800 so I don't want a problem like this. I would keep on DNA to get it fixed and keep an eye out on ebay for motors etc. Let us know how it goes.
Looks like the stamped steel basket failed at keeping the spring and it got caught in between the basket and the casing thereby tearing stuff up. It looks almost as if the retaining tab was pried up with a screwdriver or something. I say your photos are good enough to at least try to demand that Ducati do a good faith repair. That sometimes happens. If not please refer to my post above with the link to an engine with 2500 miles on it for sale by a member of this forum. Hope you get it fixed. BTW nice Magnum PI Ferrari, those are cool.
Makes me wish someone made a decent aftermarket billet clutch basket for these bikes. I remember another members' clutch grenading like this. Definitely a tragedy with an otherwise very nice clean bike.
Yeah, that other Italian POS just cost me another $8k to get out of the shop for bent valves caused by a slipped cam belt! :'( Think I'm going to switch my allegiance to Germany! ;D ;D
Quote from: Speeddog on May 28, 2009, 09:27:23 PM
I just looked up on Ducati Omaha, OEM cases for an '04 800 engine are ~$4k.
OEM clutch basket (which has the primary gears with it, matched gearset) is ~$750.
Plus other parts, plus sales tax....$5.5k-6k in parts *easy*.
Second-hand complete engine is a way cheaper way to go.
Dave and I were talking about this aspect of the repair when he got his estimate. How on earth can cases cost $4k on an $8500 bike? I mean how can they sell the bike for it's target MSRP if the cases are $4k?
That situation isn't just Ducatis, same for other bikes and cars.
Replacement parts are capital tied up for as long as it takes 'em to sell, and there's substantial cost to warehousing them, paperwork, etc.
Just The Way It Is. :-\
Quote from: Speeddog on May 29, 2009, 04:26:52 PMJust The Way It Is. :-\
Yup, the bikes are always less than the sum of their parts. Wonder how much a 696 would cost if someone got the parts manual and added up the prices of each individual piece. Would be a fun bit if information to have if someone else would do the research.
Precisely why I'm all about used parts [moto]
I'm going to round up the supplies I need to attempt a repair today. I'll take pics and post them as I go. <crosses fingers>
Dave
If you have trouble finding an ATPC basket or deside you want something with a little more clutch feel the clutch off a ss800 or non atpc monster 800/620 will bolt in. I did this to my 620 after the ATPC started slipping.
Hate to revive this old thread, but, I finally have closure! Took the bike out for a ride this evening! [thumbsup] [beer]
A huge thanks to everybody who offered helpful advice and ideas!!
I trimmed the cracked piece of engine casing. Cost: $10 in Dremel bits
Replaced the slipper S2r clutch housing with a complete setup from a 800SS. Cost: $112
Dealer wanted $8K
My out of pocket = $122 give or take a dollar or two.
Man, did it sure feel good to get up on two wheels after 10 months!
Dave
well done man. way to soldier through a tough situation.
Well done! [thumbsup]
I was kinda worried when I saw your drama, fellow S2R 800 owner myself, but I think I would have done the same as your self, I damn near fell off my chair when I saw your original quote for the repair! Bloody scary!
Glad it all worked out fine
Now go and [moto] the damn thing!
Thanks!
I already told the wife to not expect ANYTHING to get done this weekend! ;)
[moto]
Nice save!!! good luck.
Thanks all!
Man, after 150 miles with the new clutch, it's like I'm riding a completely different bike. (duh, ;)) Much better feel. Maybe it's just my lack of seat time over the last few months, but it feels like the bike pulls much harder too. [evil] [moto]
Hi Guys
This has just happened to my s2r 800 .... 2006 with 4900 miles on the clock. Two of the springs in the back of the basket broke out and the bits went in between the oil pump gear and the primary gear. This has smashed the oil pump and cracked the crankcases where the oil pump dowels are.
If i am able to get the cases alloy welded i will also not be sticking the original type clutch basket back in there ... exactly which non slipper clutch did you use ...... cheers guys ....
Is this happening to other poor s2r owners ... it's a bad one as you found out can be a big repair bill ... may have to scrap the bike......
I found a complete clutch assy for a 2003 800SS on ebay. Worked like a charm.
I feel your pain, really. Ducati NA is fully aware of the problem but refuses to address it with a recall saying the instances of failure are virtually "non existant". [roll] Because of this Ducati will NEVER get one penny of my money EVER again. No shirts,hats,DP bike accessories, and absolutely NO more new bikes!!! >:(
Thnks Dave ....
Vultures are already circling overhead .... possible S2R breaking for spares ... ha ha ..
This problem is not uncommon on S2R models only this week a S2R 800 on UK MOC has same damage and wrecked engine.
That's Me !!!!!! Fame at last !!!!
This sucks, I'm taking my clutch off to have a look at those springs, will an air ratchet get that big nut off or do I have to clamp up the clutch somehow?
Quote from: Lord_Bragle on September 30, 2009, 05:55:05 PM
This sucks, I'm taking my clutch off to have a look at those springs, will an air ratchet get that big nut off or do I have to clamp up the clutch somehow?
You'll need a 1/2" drive impact wrench.
I can't believe this shit is happening to these bikes with barely 5000 miles on them.
This is occurring in a part of the motor that on a wet-clutch bike is pretty much UNTOUCHED by the consumer at 5000, or even 10,000 miles. This is an obvious manufacturers defect, and should be taken care of out of good will. I would talk to your dealers. I know i will be expressing my concern over this issue when i take my bike in for the 6k...
seems like there are some quality control issues in bologna that really need solved.
Unbelievable.
I'm buying an impact wrench tomorrow ducpaint. I always wanted one and this is as good an excuse as I'm going to get to buy one, but am I right thinking that I wont need to restrain the clutch housing if using an air impact tool to undo the big clutch nut?
I agree with your sentiment's entirely corey, and in addition I think its potentially life threatening riding a bike that might lock its back wheel at any moment.
My bikes done possibly 14000 to maybe even 17000 miles (I had 3 sets of clocks fitted, and I lost count of the exact mileage) and NO probs at all from the cush drive built in to the bikes clutch, but reading these posts about disastrous engine blow up's gives me the heebie jeebies. I am 100% behind Ducati and I love my bike, but what if I'm carrying a passenger? I rode many miles with wife as pillion, also sons and grandson and granddaughter too, as well as many others, this is serious! Ducati really must address this issue quickly.
The APTC clutches are a bit of a beyotch to reassemble.
Take pictures...
Ducati has a 'special tool set' which seems like it could be 3 screws, I think M3 x __long...
I've done 'em without, and it's tough to load all the plates and the hub and the little springs. >:(
But in all honesty, how many of these clutch failures are we really talking about?
are we talking about 3 or 4 known about, or Dozens, or even in the hundreds?
I'm just wondering is it such a common problem, or are these just a few one off unit's that has made everyone with a S2R wet clutch unit (Like mine) a little nervous.
Is it known why this failure is happening, Bike running to hot, poorly machined part, lack of correct lubrication, inherent design problem?
Quote from: Lord_Bragle on October 01, 2009, 09:43:20 AM
I'm buying an impact wrench tomorrow ducpaint. I always wanted one and this is as good an excuse as I'm going to get to buy one, but am I right thinking that I wont need to restrain the clutch housing if using an air impact tool to undo the big clutch nut?
I agree with your sentiment's entirely corey, and in addition I think its potentially life threatening riding a bike that might lock its back wheel at any moment.
My bikes done possibly 14000 to maybe even 17000 miles (I had 3 sets of clocks fitted, and I lost count of the exact mileage) and NO probs at all from the cush drive built in to the bikes clutch, but reading these posts about disastrous engine blow up's gives me the heebie jeebies. I am 100% behind Ducati and I love my bike, but what if I'm carrying a passenger? I rode many miles with wife as pillion, also sons and grandson and granddaughter too, as well as many others, this is serious! Ducati really must address this issue quickly.
On a conventional wet or dry clutch the impact wrench generally is enough.
I have no FHE on the APTC clutch pack itself, but the nut is similar I believe.
I just swapped my APTC for an 800 ss (non-APTC) unit. I did not get a clutch holding tool. I just put the bike in 6th gear and stood on the rear brake, while a friend impact-wrenched the bolt off. Did the same thing with the rear brake to get it torqued back on at 150 lb/ft. The APTC is not too difficult to get reassembled, just be sure not to lose the three little springs that go between the pressure plate and the inner hub thing. I'm not talking about the 6 main springs, I'm talking about 3 other little springs that actually make the "slipper" work. Capirex has some photos of them in a recent post about how the APTC works. The whole procedure took about an hour, and that was for me as a first-timer.
Quote from: corey on October 01, 2009, 05:34:37 AM
I can't believe this shit is happening to these bikes with barely 5000 miles on them.
This is occurring in a part of the motor that on a wet-clutch bike is pretty much UNTOUCHED by the consumer at 5000, or even 10,000 miles. This is an obvious manufacturers defect, and should be taken care of out of good will. I would talk to your dealers. I know i will be expressing my concern over this issue when i take my bike in for the 6k...
seems like there are some quality control issues in bologna that really need solved.
Unbelievable.
I am friends with my local dealer. They went as far as they could before the area factory rep said NO to good will. Period. He said I should have gotten an extended warranty. >:( I personally called the Mgr over Customer Service for all of DNA and was basically told to go F myself. I was out of warranty, it didn't matter that DNA knew about the clutch nut loosening. >:( >:( After her, I called the Technical Div mgr. He apparently had been filled in on my situation and also told me to get F'd in no uncertain terms. Because of this attitude over clearly a safety issue, I refuse to spend one more penny on anything from DNA! Of course this would have happened anyway by default if , because of Ducati's shitty QC, my engine had locked up at 75mph on the hwy! :o (Cuz I'd be freakin dead!!) I do believe it is as widespread as we think, just not all are catastrophic failures like mine and gerry's. When I described my symptoms after the failure, (before I brought it to the dealer), to 2 different ducati techs, both said check the clutch nut because it just works loose! So I'm not buying that it rarely if ever happens like DNA told me! [roll]
wow.
this makes me really nervous.
so can someone explain exactly what the problem is, and exactly what to check for on the bike?
I really want to get in there and check this out. I would like to have my dealer check this out, but am afraid they will just SAY they checked it out...
Quote from: corey on October 02, 2009, 05:16:29 AM
wow.
this makes me really nervous.
so can someone explain exactly what the problem is, and exactly what to check for on the bike?
I really want to get in there and check this out. I would like to have my dealer check this out, but am afraid they will just SAY they checked it out...
Simply put, the large nut holding the clutch basket is undertorqued and as it becomes looser symptoms form as innocous as a rattle/vibration all the way to catastrophic failure like we had. At least that's how it was explained to me.
And if you don't trust your dealer to check the torque, I'd make them pull the clutch cover and call me to come see it before they put it back together.
The APTC clutch lacks the lock tab for the clutch nut that the other wet clutches have. A good saftey measure maybe to install one of these into the clutch if you are woried of possible failure.
I looked at the service manual caperix, and noted the washer under the clutch centre nut, it's notched for splines and like you say it's not a tab type lock washer. Yet the manual calls it a “Safety Washer†!
What I'm wondering is, if this nut coming loose is the actual cause of the Cush Drive failures or not? It looks like the springs in the Cush Drive break up and then escape from their housings jamming between primary drive and engine casing.
If on inspection (when I get round to having a look) it turns out that the Cush on my bike is starting to disintegrate I will have to make a decision whether to use the bike or not, and if it did need replacing, I believe its expensive 1500ish maybe.
I do not have any FHE with the failure, at 30,000 miles mine was ok when I swaped it out. My '04 did not have the spring hub in the basket like the S2r's with the failure have. Dave said he was informed that the clutch basket nut comming loose is the cause. The saftey washer on the APTC does not appear to have any way of locking the nut, nothing had to be done to it to remove the nut.
Looking at the design of the APTC slipper, and how it functions, I wonder if just repeated normal operation of the slipper function is what causes the nut to loosen. You don't hear of this problem with the earlier non-slipper wet clutches. Also the 800SS clutch assy I put in had no type of "lock washer". It was simply a flat washer identical to the one that came off of the stock APTC. I think I'm going to put another 100 miles or so on it, then pull the cover and check to torque on the nut just for the hell of it. I will admit to still being a little nervous riding, even though I know it has been rebuilt properly. :-\
I bent the flat washer, on my 800SS clutch swap, around the nut.
Thread locker?
Quote from: CairnsDuc on October 04, 2009, 12:03:47 AM
Thread locker?
Absolutely,positively when it went back together! Factory manual says to use grease on the threads. ??? Mine got good 'ol Loctite Red!
well i'm in the market for an S2R and this thread has spooked me enough to if i find/buy 1 i'm going to threadlock that bolt for safety lol.
How hard is it to pull the wet clutch apart to get access to this nut?
I have my 24000 km service coming up soon, I figure while I'm pulling everything apart I may as well check this nut, what size nut is it? I have a 1 meter long 1/2 inch driver bar, will this get me enough force to check the tension on the nut?
Quote from: CairnsDuc on October 04, 2009, 04:44:56 PM
How hard is it to pull the wet clutch apart to get access to this nut?
I have my 24000 km service coming up soon, I figure while I'm pulling everything apart I may as well check this nut, what size nut is it? I have a 1 meter long 1/2 inch driver bar, will this get me enough force to check the tension on the nut?
Not hard.
You'll need a holding tool, and you really should torque the nut if you're going in there.
So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm looking at the S2R service manual, to gain access to the nut.
I only have to remove the 6 spring retaining bolts, caps and springs, remove the pressure plate.
and the nut should be right there under the pressure plate?
(sorry the pictures I have in the service manual are a low resolution so not very clear)
How would be the best way to secure the clutch so it does not spin or move while trying to tighten the nut? I found this Tool on Ca Cycleworks, would this be fine to hold the clutch? I was also thinking I'll put the bike in 6th gear and hold the rear brake
(http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/tools/clutch_tool.jpg)
Standard right hand thread?
Size of the nut in question?
All going to plan I will do this as part of the bikes service, I will make a tutorial topic so others can do it as well.
Yup...don't forget to remove the side cover or you may have issues finding the other stuff. ;D
ca-cycleworks sells a tool for holding the hub.
It is r/h thread. I don't know the nut size.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 04, 2009, 05:16:59 PM
Yup...don't forget to remove the side cover or you may have issues finding the other stuff. ;D
That explains why I can't find the clutch..... [laugh]
I assume I won't need the 3 special Ducati bolts?
I am not removing the clutch pack or removing the nut, I may just move the nut out on the thread, apply some thread locker and tighten up again.
I used a 32mm impact socket on my big honkin Ingersol Rand! ;)
The Cush-Drive on my bikes fine. Take a look at the pics. There's three thick springs that sit loose within their housings and three weaker ones that sit more tightly, it looks like the thicker ones take up the more excessive shocks and impacts after the lighter springs have done their job. The whole thing looks in perfect condition, and the APTC bits look to be well thought out and nicely engineered.
The centre nut was tight, so this is confirming the “Loose Clutch Centre Nut†theory being the reason for Cush-Drive failure; well with what's being observed in the case with my bike it's being confirmed anyway!
The bikes done 15000ish miles with one-track day, I try to ride it smoothly.
I have a question, what is the difference between red and blue Locktight? Also I'm not so sure Locktight is even going to be effective in this application… Prob is that the primary shaft is splined, so instead of the compound being buried deep betwixt threads of nut and shaft -like for example mortar buried deep within walls of a building… it will be in a point contact like situation between these raised lands of the spline's and the thread of the nut. Might one type of compound work better than the other?
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13212&d=1254935450)
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13213&d=1254935484)
Would I be correct in thinking that if the Cush drive was being damaged, that pieces of Metal would show up on the Sump plug? I change my oil every 3000 km. and the amount of metal on the Sump plug is very minimal (normal wear and tear)
Quote from: CairnsDuc on October 07, 2009, 02:58:45 PM
Would I be correct in thinking that if the Cush drive was being damaged, that pieces of Metal would show up on the Sump plug? I change my oil every 3000 km. and the amount of metal on the Sump plug is very minimal (normal wear and tear)
I would think so, but it only helps *if* you happen to catch it before it fails completely.
Quote from: Lord_Bragle on October 07, 2009, 09:21:04 AM
<snip>
I have a question, what is the difference between red and blue Locktight? Also I'm not so sure Locktight is even going to be effective in this application… Prob is that the primary shaft is splined, so instead of the compound being buried deep betwixt threads of nut and shaft -like for example mortar buried deep within walls of a building… it will be in a point contact like situation between these raised lands of the spline's and the thread of the nut. Might one type of compound work better than the other?
Blue locktite is removable with normal hand tools. Red requires heat/impact tools to remove.
The splined end of that shaft is probably the reason the nut is loosening. They've cut the thread surface in half. The locktite will still work on the threads. You don't need much, and red is what you want for that application.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 07, 2009, 05:10:55 PM
I would think so, but it only helps *if* you happen to catch it before it fails completely.
Ah, no worries, I have ordered a Torque wrench with the setting high enough for what the service manual states for the Torque setting, When it arrives, I shall break out the Tools (Plasma cutter, large assortment of hammers, Medical Kit, Etc) and have at the Clutch.
With nearly 24000 Klm's on the bike, it will be interesting to see how tight the nut is.
I had a right game getting my clutch back together. I made a big kikass tool to hold the outer drum but when I stuck the big central nut on to the primary shaft it just turned round and around. I had to use three long thin 3mm pins plus spacers placed where the Ducati Tool used for installing the three helper springs go, these clamped up the plates enabling me to torque the nut up. Beware anyone removing that big nut because you do need some special tools to get it all together again.
Something else about the primary drive on these bikes is that there's a shock absorber built in to the gear on the end of the crank, its got a strange nut holding it on too, doubt a tool could be made for this, it will have to be a genuine service tool me thinks :(
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13224&d=1255171205)
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13225&d=1255171234)
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13226&d=1255171263)
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13227&d=1255171289)
(http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/attachment.php?attachmentid=13228&d=1255171325)
Nice little tool you rigged up there! [thumbsup]
Little tool ! lol
Well, I pulled the clutch apart on my S2R 800 tonight and checked the nut, rock solid, I damn near ruptured my Ass getting it undone, now because I didn't have the Ducati tools to hold the clutch plates in place I removed them making sure to keep them the right direction and in the same order they came out!
I didn't remove the nut completely, I loosened it enough to turn by hand, moved it out on the thread while holding the centre part of the clutch, gave it a quick wipe and clean, dropped on a little Loctite Red, and re-secured the nut to 140 Ft pounds.
I have taken a number of photo's and I'll put up a basic Tutorial, but it's nearly 1am here in Australia, so I'm off to bed (been up since 5am :P )
Now I know how to do this I might make it a part of the 12000km service, granted the Loctite red should stop it, but never can be to careful!
We all know how much expensive damage this nut will cause should it come loose!!!
Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but there is lots relevant info above.
I'm getting ready to reinstall the APTC wet clutch in my M695 (new plates, springs, shift detent, etc.).
On disassembly, the large clutch securing nut was barely more than finger tight. I think I dodged the bullet on that one!
I have the option of using grease on the nut (the Ducati way) or going with some thread locker. Given the history here, I'm inclined to use thread locker.
Should I be concerned about not achieving the same clamping force due to the lack of correct lubricity of loctite relative to grease?
I want to make an informed choice on the loctite formulation. They are not all the same, even if the color is, and the environment is pretty hostile. I reviewed numerous Loctite Technical Data Sheets. Ducati calls for "Locker 5" on the flywheel side, and apparently also on the clutch side of some SBKs. This corresponds to Loctite 128455, which is formally a retaining compound as opposed to a thread locking compound. But, it has quite exceptional temperature/oil/shock resistance. I checked with Henkel, and Loctite 648 is essentially identical and can be obtained locally.
Anyone see a reason not to use Loctite 648 (green) on the clutch nut and torque to the usual spec?
BK
On Dry clutch models Ducati raised the torque value for the Clutch nut to 136ftlbs over the years from 122ftllbs to 130ftlbs etc as they had a tendancy to back off , my S4 clutch did that when I first had it .I have an electric air wrench for undoing Ducati clutches and holding tools but I always use a hand torque wrench when retightening for accuracy and sensitivity and new tab washers and red loctite .Last 4 years never had a problem with any Ducati I worked on with these methods .
Check what the current value for the ATPC clutch torque is I bet Ducati has raised it ...
The more I think about this particular application, the more I wonder if loctite would even adequately cure, given that the threads are cut into the splines of the shaft and there are only mm of individual discrete contact areas. Would make it very difficult for the necessary "anaerobic" conditions to exist over much if any of the metal/metal interface. Maybe that's why the factory does not bother with thread locker? My brain hurts.
I did check with my dealer about updated procedures or specs, but they were not aware of any.
BK
(http://i54.tinypic.com/5519ol.jpg)
I would say go for the thread lock...but then again, you can fit what I know into a thimble and still have room left.
A lock tab for the nut off a non APTC bike would be good insurance. Never could figure out why Ducati did not use them on the APTC bikes.
Quote from: caperix on February 17, 2011, 04:10:12 PM
A lock tab for the nut off a non APTC bike would be good insurance. Never could figure out why Ducati did not use them on the APTC bikes.
Not sure there is enough access to deal with a lock tab.
Looking through my 749S service manual, I see that Ducati also specifies grease for the (dry) clutch nut and also the front sprocket, which uses a threaded/splined shaft like the wet clutch on the M695.
I sent some photos to the tech people at Henkel (loctite) and they thought that the 648 would probably cure just fine in the threaded portions, but a two part epoxy thread locker would be preferred. I'm going to do the following....grease the inward 2/3 of the
shaft with moly grease, and apply loctite 648 to the outer 1/3 of the
nut...then torque to the high end of the spec with 200Nm. Hopefully that gives me the designed lubricity/clamping and also some degree of "insurance" with the green 648. Will plan to check every 10k miles or so.
BK
i have an 03 800 dark and have noticed a slight increase in handlebar vibration out of gear with no clutch. i pull the clutch and the vibration lessens. also the other day, twice, on hard launches the clutch seemed to slip a little with kind of growl sound/feel.. can anyone tell me if the 03 800 had this same slipper clutch as the s2r or was it only 04 and on that had it.
Cheers Clint
Your '03 should have a conventional wet clutch, but the nut can loosen on those also.
Quote from: Dave328 on October 02, 2009, 10:42:46 AM
Simply put, the large nut holding the clutch basket is undertorqued and as it becomes looser symptoms form as innocous as a rattle/vibration all the way to catastrophic failure like we had. At least that's how it was explained to me.
And if you don't trust your dealer to check the torque, I'd make them pull the clutch cover and call me to come see it before they put it back together.
Sorry to bring this up again but this thread was referenced from one of the newer threads. Anyway, this has got me worried. What kind of "vibration" would this be? From the clutch case? Does it happen on neutral, or only when in gear and riding? Any advice and/or tips for this issue? Thanks.
BTW, further research on this issue led me to a thread with some useful info (sorry for a link to another forum) where one of the folks who had this happen to him twice replaced the part with one from a 620 which does not have the springs. http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/155497-2005-s2r-clutch-noise-found-cause.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/155497-2005-s2r-clutch-noise-found-cause.html)
I know this seems like it happens a lot, and I'm not discounting the people it HAS happened to, but let's keep in mind that the only people who post up about this problem are the ones that experience it. We've got maybe 10 cases of this occurring that we can account for now?
What I'm getting at is that either the clutch is going to grenade itself, or it's not... and I'd say there are many more S2R800's out there that will never have this problem (more likely to replace the clutch before it does) than those that will.
Were it me (and it is!), I'd ride the bike, and next time I have it in for a service, have the dealer "check the clutch out because you've heard of some people having catastrophic failures."
I recently had my side cover off. Clutch nut was much more than hand-tight, so I let it be.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Quote from: corey on June 04, 2012, 06:15:13 AM
..........
I recently had my side cover off. Clutch nut was much more than hand-tight, so I let it be.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Having in mind how expensive and potentially dangerous this can be, I'd like to fix it before it happens (again)
"Much more than and tight" is not a useful test on this nut.... it's tightened with 190Nm.
Quote from: stopintime on June 04, 2012, 10:48:02 AM
Having in mind how expensive and potentially dangerous this can be, I'd like to fix it before it happens (again)
"Much more than and tight" is not a useful test on this nut.... it's tightened with 190Nm.
I guess the question is... how dangerous is it? If this happens while riding, will it cause the rider to lose control?
Quote from: Betlog on June 04, 2012, 12:24:38 PM
I guess the question is... how dangerous is it? If this happens while riding, will it cause the rider to lose control?
if you're moving, I imagine it's lock-up city for sure.
My $0.02 as follows:
(a) You are the paranoid type and/or track your bike. Remove the clutch cover, remove & degrease the hub nut, inspect cush spring area if so equipped, reinstall hub nut with a suitable threadlocker and proper torque.
(b) You are experiencing new and unexplained NVH, possibly related to clutch use. See (a) above.
(c) You want to stay on top of this rare event to avoid a costly failure. Remove the clutch cover and torque the hub nut at some upcoming oil change. I checked mine for the heck of it and it was barely more than hand tight. Installation of a cover gasket from CA-Cycleworks will make future checks easier.
I verified my hub nut about a year after tightening it, and all was good.
If I had to do it again, I would probably use the new lubricated threadlocker from loctite.
Below is a pic of the Ducati tools in use (large billet basket holder and three clutch assembly screws).
BK
(http://i47.tinypic.com/f1cvd.jpg)
Is this something where once it starts happening, failure is sudden OR is it a progressive thing?
Quote from: BK_856er on June 04, 2012, 02:05:33 PM
I checked mine for the heck of it and it was barely more than hand tight. Installation of a cover gasket from CA-Cycleworks will make future checks easier.
P.S. link to gasket? I looked but could not find on their site.
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/ca-cycleworks-oil-clutch-engine-cover-gasket-gaskets (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/ca-cycleworks-oil-clutch-engine-cover-gasket-gaskets)
Apply grease to at least one side to facilitate later removal.
BK
Quote from: BK_856er on June 04, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/ca-cycleworks-oil-clutch-engine-cover-gasket-gaskets (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/ca-cycleworks-oil-clutch-engine-cover-gasket-gaskets)
Apply grease to at least one side to facilitate later removal.
BK
Cool. Thanks.
Quote from: Betlog on June 03, 2012, 08:07:13 PM
BTW, further research on this issue led me to a thread with some useful info (sorry for a link to another forum) where one of the folks who had this happen to him twice replaced the part with one from a 620 which does not have the springs. http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/155497-2005-s2r-clutch-noise-found-cause.html (http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/155497-2005-s2r-clutch-noise-found-cause.html)
is this problem one in the same as the clutch nut backing off? it seems like an unrelated failure of the cush drive springs?
Quote from: corey on June 08, 2012, 12:43:19 PM
is this problem one in the same as the clutch nut backing off? it seems like an unrelated failure of the cush drive springs?
No, clutch nut backing off is a totally seperate issue.
Quote from: Betlog on June 04, 2012, 02:24:50 PM
P.S. link to gasket? I looked but could not find on their site.
PS it's the same gasket on all 2v and early 4v models
okay so...
what this is all basically boiling down to... is that the S2R APTC unit is a piece of garbage in general. Got it.
Quote from: corey on June 08, 2012, 01:02:42 PM
okay so...
what this is all basically boiling down to... is that the S2R APTC unit is a piece of garbage in general. Got it.
Ducati engineers told the manufacturing department to make this engineering miracle - a soft lever, slipper action and cush springs protected clutch. Then they went to lunch and never looked back, later washing their hands when confronted with their failure.
When it works, it works well. When it explodes.... Garbage? Not until it stops performing [cheeky]
Quote from: stopintime on June 08, 2012, 01:58:10 PM
Ducati engineers told the manufacturing department to make this engineering miracle - a soft lever, slipper action and cush springs protected clutch. Then they went to lunch and never looked back, later washing their hands when confronted with their failure.When it works, it works well. When it explodes.... Garbage? Not until it stops performing [cheeky]
BINGO!! ;) ;D
man you guys are a bunch of melodramatic nannas. thank god you don't have 4v with flaking rockers.
the aptc clutch is not a ducati thing, it's made by adige amongst lots of other stuff - http://www.adige.eu/public/ENG/products/products.asp (http://www.adige.eu/public/ENG/products/products.asp)
the issue, that seems to occur to a small number of bikes (i've seen only one, which did it twice) is with the spring type cush drive equipped primary drive gear. you could get a non sprung hub and rivet it on or get a non sprung aptc hub and fit it.
[laugh]
lol
Stole this pic of a non-sprung APTC clutch basket/gear from one of Dirt Monster's nice M695 posts. Gives a good view of things for comparison. No springs to grenade. Nice and light.
BK
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2a5j9zl.jpg)
Does that have rubber cush/dampers?
Quote from: stopintime on June 17, 2012, 02:13:54 PM
Does that have rubber cush/dampers?
It's all metal. No cush/dampers.
BK
Can it be fitted to a S2R?
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/594/kylk.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/kylk.jpg/)
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/10/28pc.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/28pc.jpg/)
Ive got the same problem... Also, what are those little springs in the primarygear? I didnt see those on your bikes.
That is a dual mass primary drive gear, also 'known' to explode or something like that.
I changed mine for an old style one-piece gear, but it wasn't a pair with the large driven gear and made a terrible high pitch noise.
My second sprung gear/basket was also toast after a short while. (probably/maybe related to my tuned engine)
This year I have run a basic 750 clutch and it has performed well (survived at least)
Quote from: corey on May 28, 2009, 01:03:19 PM
What on earth could cause this?
Wet clutch bike with 3400 miles... nothing in that area has probably ever been touched since that bike left the factory.
I call manufacturer defect/quality control issue on this one.
Main clutch centre Nut not torqued up to correct specification of 137ft lbs would cause the problem its not uncommon but this is the worse damage i have ever seen
Hi!
I just wanted to say thank you, for this topic.
Today my s2r came back from the workshop with new parts installed from a 796 hypermotard. Without the information here provided my bike would propably still be broken.
Thank you
[thumbsup]
I have seen loose clutch nuts on many ducatis , 916, S4,750ss ,M900,ST3,s2r atc its not uncommon , but many dealers do not stock locking tabs for different clutch hub designs , and the older types cant be sourced even from Ducati so I always use some loctite and a150lbs torque .
Has anyone herd if this happening on '09 696?
The main nut could undo itself, I suppose.
The large gear behind the basket doesn't have the huge springs, so you're not going to have that kind of damage with a 696.
So what happens when that nut loosens?
The engine would lock up?
One example in the link below. Big nut comes off, clutch stops working, call a tow. No internal carnage in this case.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=67392.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=67392.0)
BK