Meet the E1PC Racebike: The world's first zero emissions race bike.
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/06/MotoCzysz_E1pc_Leak_1.jpg)
Check out the iPhone serving as the dash board:
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/06/MotoCzysz_Iphone.jpg)
Read More: http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/06/motoczysz-e1pc-electric-superb.html (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/06/motoczysz-e1pc-electric-superb.html)
I was gonna say it looks like the motoczysz bike. But I guess there's a reason for that. [laugh]
Zero Emmission IMO is a misnomer unless they are getting their electricity from renewable sources. The electricity to charge that bike came from a powerplant that was making some kind of emmission, again unless it was exclusively solar, wind or water powered.
It is a great looking bike though....
Quote from: NAKID on June 08, 2009, 08:39:38 AM
Zero Emmission IMO is a misnomer unless they are getting their electricity from renewable sources. The electricity to charge that bike came from a powerplant that was making some kind of emmission, again unless it was exclusively solar, wind or water powered.
Granted, but even if it comes from a coal-fired powerplant, the CO
2 emissions per mile ridden are low enough to make it an ELEV.
That said, can someone 'splain to me why it needs a clutch reservoir?
Quote from: Obsessed? on June 08, 2009, 08:55:51 AM
That said, can someone 'splain to me why it needs a clutch reservoir?
I was wondering the same thing!
Quote from: Obsessed? on June 08, 2009, 08:55:51 AM
That said, can someone 'splain to me why it needs a clutch reservoir?
F/R brakes, maybe? so there's no foot ctrls?
:edit: n'mind, I can see the MC res in the side shot...
Quote from: Obsessed? on June 08, 2009, 08:55:51 AM
That said, can someone 'splain to me why it needs a clutch reservoir?
Rear brake, I assume?
Quote from: Spidey on June 08, 2009, 09:04:52 AM
Rear brake, I assume?
A rear brake reservoir is visible in the side-shot.
That
glaring design flaw aside, I'd still ride it.
Maybe there is a clutch so that you don't have massive engine braking when you roll off the throttle? That'd make sense. Many racers use the clutch to fine tune the power to the wheel. Just throwin' out ideas here.
That's definitely plausible.
I kept wondering why you'd need a clutch to start out since the motor isn't turning unless you want it to, but I hadn't thought of the engine-braking aspect.
It might have a clutch to help the electric motor get started:
Electric motors consume frightening large amounts of current when they first get rolling. Ever notice the lights dimming for a split second when your clothes dryer first starts up?
Possibly the clutch is there to help the motor spin up that first little bit. It's either that, or it's there to keep the bike's feel as similar to a "real" bike as possible.
And there's zero engine braking on an electric motor. Well, not unless you build in regenerative braking into the circuits, and AFAIK none of these guys have done that.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 08, 2009, 09:41:56 AM
And there's zero engine braking on an electric motor. Well, not unless you build in regenerative braking into the circuits, and AFAIK none of these guys have done that.
'splain please.
This is comin' straight outta my ass, but I think the internal combustion engine is based on intertia: push a piston, make the bike go. The whole time the piston is resisting movement, which is partly how you get engine braking. I would guess an electric motor just spins in circles, so there is little resistance, and no significant potential for engine braking.
Anyone buy that load?
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 08, 2009, 09:41:56 AM
And there's zero engine braking on an electric motor. Well, not unless you build in regenerative braking into the circuits, and AFAIK none of these guys have done that.
IIRC, weren't the mission one guys planning that? there was a brief write up in motorcyclist on their bike, and the TTXGP
Quote from: Spidey on June 08, 2009, 09:26:38 AM
Many racers use the clutch to fine tune the power to the wheel.
That's my guess too.
Quote from: Obsessed? on June 08, 2009, 08:55:51 AM
That said, can someone 'splain to me why it needs a clutch reservoir?
They might have a transmission if they can't get the motor to spin fast enough for the speeds that they need to go (the Tesla has a 2-speed transmission). The clutch would be pretty funny to use - you wouldn't use it for launches, just for gear changes.
Quote from: Spidey on June 08, 2009, 10:02:00 AM
'splain please.
I'll try, but I'm a software guy so it's been a long time since EE 101: An electric motor is a generator and a generator is a motor. Both convert between electricity and work, just in different directions. So if you put current into a motor it will generate torque, but if you put torque into a motor (like when you close the throttle at speed) it will generate current. The problem is what to do with the current. If you're really clever you can recover some of the current that you put into the motor when you had the throttle open, which makes the system much more efficient since you're not dumping energy into heat via friction. The problem with this technique on a sportbike is that the drive happens at the rear wheel but the braking happens at the front wheel so you can't do too much.
Is there an EE in the house?
Pretty cool...needs a windscreen though.
Ahem, I'm sticking to my oil burning internal combustion engines thank you very much, why why why would you want a bike that purrs? I hate cats I need my bike to bark. :'(
Instant tq, you're never out of your powerband...
Quote from: caboteria on June 08, 2009, 11:13:45 AM
They might have a transmission if they can't get the motor to spin fast enough for the speeds that they need to go (the Tesla has a 2-speed transmission). The clutch would be pretty funny to use - you wouldn't use it for launches, just for gear changes.
I'll try, but I'm a software guy so it's been a long time since EE 101: An electric motor is a generator and a generator is a motor. Both convert between electricity and work, just in different directions. So if you put current into a motor it will generate torque, but if you put torque into a motor (like when you close the throttle at speed) it will generate current. The problem is what to do with the current. If you're really clever you can recover some of the current that you put into the motor when you had the throttle open, which makes the system much more efficient since you're not dumping energy into heat via friction. The problem with this technique on a sportbike is that the drive happens at the rear wheel but the braking happens at the front wheel so you can't do too much.
Is there an EE in the house?
Not an EE but I play one on TV (physics actually) You are right on, the only way to get engine braking would be to use the current generated by the motor under decel to recharge the batteries. The problem on a bike is that it would be likely lock up the rear wheel. On cars this isn't as much of a problem.
Understand that regeneration is not done by the brakes, brakes work the same converting the forward motion to heat. Regen works independently, just like engine braking.
check this
http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps (http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps)
Quote from: dbran1949 on June 08, 2009, 02:08:15 PM
check this
http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps (http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps)
That is so cool.
Quote from: dbran1949 on June 08, 2009, 02:08:15 PM
check this
http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps (http://i.gizmodo.com/5151641/formula-1-cars-getting-electric-hyperspeed-jumps)
Video is down. Doesn't matter. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant.
I'm not an EE either. I have a bachelor of arts... In Science!
But that description is spot on:
Basically you reverse the polarity on the connection from the battery to the motor and it goes from the battery running the motor to the motor recharging the battery.
One of the reasons Hybrids get better mileage in town than on the freeway.
Mind you, it's actually a lot more complex that that (they use brushless DC motors and complex controllers) but that's the principle.
Eventually, I predict two wheel drive electric motors with regen braking and traction control systems way more advanced than what we have now. It's a lot easier to do traction control when you're dealing with electric current then it is to do it controlling a throttle and/or hydraulic braking system.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 08, 2009, 08:00:57 PM
Basically you reverse the polarity on the connection from the battery to the motor and it goes from the battery running the motor to the motor recharging the battery.
... the motor spins in the opposite direction ;)
From wikipedia's article on regen braking:
For a given direction of travel, current flow through the motor armatures during braking will be opposite to that during motoring. Therefore, the motor exerts torque in a direction that is opposite from the rolling direction.
So... how is that not a simple reversal of polarity? ???
Or is it more complex than that, and I'm missing something?
Current flow is not the same as polarity. Reversing the polarity is changing the positive to negative terminals (in a DC system) which makes the motor spin in the opposite direction. Current flow is determined by generation (source) vs. load (sink). In normal operation the batteries are the source and the motor the load. During decel (if the motor is still connected to the batteries and there is no diode or other electronic device to keep current from flowing "backward") the motor will feel a reverse EMF which resists rotation. All this happens without changing polarity which refers to the positive and negative wiring.
All in all an interesting subject and now that it is being used in F1 racing we ought to see some trickle down in a few years. It's a shame to be burning all the fuel to accelerate only to throw all that momentum away as heat on the deceleration.
One way would be to put a little generator in the front hub. It would free-wheel as long as there was no load on the output. When the throttle was backed off the tps could instruct the ecu to put a load on the output of the generator (recharge the battery). this way you could get some energy back without applying a braking force to the rear wheel
I know I am getting off topic here, but since the first link I put up had broken video, here is a better one
Ferrari F2009 KERS K.E.R.S. for dummies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-A6ZcenX7s#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Very Cool!!
Truly revolutionary.
Here it is in action
Motoczysz E1pc TTXGP racer first test at PIR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoRWcPJlSQ&feature=player_embedded#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 08, 2009, 08:00:57 PM
I'm not an EE either. I have a bachelor of arts... In Science!
But that description is spot on:
Basically you reverse the polarity on the connection from the battery to the motor and it goes from the battery running the motor to the motor recharging the battery.
One of the reasons Hybrids get better mileage in town than on the freeway.
Mind you, it's actually a lot more complex that that (they use brushless DC motors and complex controllers) but that's the principle.
Eventually, I predict two wheel drive electric motors with regen braking and traction control systems way more advanced than what we have now. It's a lot easier to do traction control when you're dealing with electric current then it is to do it controlling a throttle and/or hydraulic braking system.
I rode a Vectrix VX-1 electric scooter at an SAE meeting a couple of weeks ago. The Vectrix electric scoots in stores today already have regenerative braking capabilities.
When you get the Vectrix up to speed, you can release the throttle to 'neutral' (closed throttle) position and coast. If you want regen braking, you simply twist the throttle further 'forward'. The further you twist the throttle 'forward', the more regen braking you get from the rear wheel. The regen braking will slow the bike nicely, but there are also traditional braking discs at front+rear to add stopping power.
The Vectrix scoots are pretty heavy (~450lbs, IIRC), so you can also use the 'regen' throttle to move the bike (slowly) in reverse! Simply twist the throttle forward a little bit, and the bike will move backwards. This requires a little rider caution, but it would come in handy if you're trying to back the heavy scoot out of a parking spot.
I was really impressed with the refinement of Vectrix' regen braking system. The whole thing is very intuitive for anyone with riding experience. Coincidentally, Vectrix has a patent on this throttle/regen control system for electric motos.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 08, 2009, 09:41:56 AM
Well, not unless you build in regenerative braking into the circuits, and AFAIK none of these guys have done that.
From their website. One of the engineers chimed in on the clutch lever....
The rear brake is in its normal, foot position - as the front brake is in its nomal right hand position, the left hand 'clutch' lever you see is regen braking - so you are right in your thinking - we kept the bike as normal as possible for the rider with the addition of regen.
I continue to be baffled by the interest in "electric" vehicles. There is no practical power source at this time, current battery technology will always be limited (Dynamic-to-kinetic-to-dynamic). The creation of the current batteries, be they ncad or lithium ion are more damaging to the environment (if this is the reason for the interest) than the carbon coming out of tailpipes. The current "refinements" to battery technology are just polishing a turd. The geniuses working on these should address the power source problem first. It's like inventing a bicycle before you've discovered the wheel.
Quote from: Special K on June 09, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
I continue to be baffled by the interest in "electric" vehicles.
The interest I understand. The hype escapes me.
Quote from: Special K on June 09, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
I continue to be baffled by the interest in "electric" vehicles. There is no practical power source at this time, current battery technology will always be limited (Dynamic-to-kinetic-to-dynamic). The creation of the current batteries, be they ncad or lithium ion are more damaging to the environment (if this is the reason for the interest) than the carbon coming out of tailpipes. The current "refinements" to battery technology are just polishing a turd. The geniuses working on these should address the power source problem first. It's like inventing a bicycle before you've discovered the wheel.
I understand your position and have been looking for research that backs up your statements to the total cost of building and correctly disposing of batteries used in electric vehicles. If you could provide links or more information as to where you got your facts I would really appreciate it.
That having been said, a number of the really bleeding edge electric vehicle folks have solar home recharging stations which makes the OPERATION of the vehicle carbon neutral even if the manufacture and disposal of said vehicle is not. Regardless of whether the future energy source is algae, biodiesel, or batteries, I welcome our awesome technological future!
I love that people are working on alternatives. I think battery power is ultimately flawed and that time & money would be better spent coming up with a viable Hydrogen based infrastructure.
I still want an E1pc. ;)
Quote from: Special K on June 09, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
I continue to be baffled by the interest in "electric" vehicles. There is no practical power source at this time, current battery technology will always be limited (Dynamic-to-kinetic-to-dynamic). The creation of the current batteries, be they ncad or lithium ion are more damaging to the environment (if this is the reason for the interest) than the carbon coming out of tailpipes. The current "refinements" to battery technology are just polishing a turd. The geniuses working on these should address the power source problem first. It's like inventing a bicycle before you've discovered the wheel.
They do it because it is an alternative to what we have now, and this is how things progress. In the end electric vehicles may ultimately end up not being feasible...but if the research is never done, then we'll never know, and the technology will never be advanced. You can't just pick one alternative (i.e. hydrogen)...you have to research and develop them all, leaving the superior one to rise to the surface.
There were probably people on horses way back when saying they don't know why those morons keep working on the automobile...they'll never find enough oil, and they'll never be reliable.
Quote from: yotogi on June 09, 2009, 12:43:52 PM
I understand your position and have been looking for research that backs up your statements to the total cost of building and correctly disposing of batteries used in electric vehicles. If you could provide links or more information as to where you got your facts I would really appreciate it.
two of my sources are Popular Mechanics articles from about 3 or 4 years ago, one about batteries and another about the Toyota Prius +and -, what year and issue I couldn't tell you (maybe there is online back issues, happy hunting). Somewhere online there is also an article comparing the environmental impact of a Prius and a Hummer, again don't remember the source on that one. I'm dubious of online sources that aren't connected to some reputable source.
What little I know of battery technology is from 10th grade chem class and a friend who was a Physics major in college. Can you name a source of some recent breakthrough the world hasn't heard about? It seems like a limited technology, the source of which is every article ever written on the range of vehicles powered solely by batteries.
Hydrogen power is another matter entirely. This seems like a technology that would satisfy everyone. The fuel is made at the pump (you need water and electricity) Shell oil has this technology now. It would free us up from such a strong dependency on oil and all the turmoil that comes with it. The motor exists now and GM has it (why our new environmentally conscious President who runs GM is not pushing this is a mystery to me). And it emits water vapor. Saw all this on CNN 2 years ago. Seems like everybody would be happy because I don't want my future Monster to sound like an electric lawnmower.
why my response got lumped in with the quote also baffles me.
The problem with Hydrogen as I understand it is we don't currently have a good way to make Hydrogen. Hydrogen is currently made from oil (I think). Theoretically it can be made from water, but apparently it takes a lot of energy to do that...negating much of the benefit.
No research to back that up...just what I seem to remember reading a while back.
Quote from: Triple J on June 09, 2009, 02:44:39 PM
The problem with Hydrogen as I understand it is we don't currently have a good way to make Hydrogen. Hydrogen is currently made from oil (I think). Theoretically it can be made from water, but apparently it takes a lot of energy to do that...negating much of the benefit.
No research to back that up...just what I seem to remember reading a while back.
The CNN show was my only source for the fueling station. There were only a few in markets where they were testing the cars (New York, L.A.). You may very well be right.
Hydrogen is made from the electrolysis of water.
Quote from: NAKID on June 09, 2009, 03:31:15 PM
Hydrogen is made from the electrolysis of water.
...and the energy to do so currently comes from oil...hence the problem.
(wikipedia)
The predominant methods of hydrogen production rely on exothermic chemical reactions of fossil fuels to provide the energy needed to chemically convert feedstock into hydrogen. But when the energy supply is mechanical (hydropower or wind turbines), hydrogen can be made via high pressure electrolysis or low pressure electrolysis of water. In current market conditions, the 50 kWh of electricity consumed to manufacture one kilogram of compressed hydrogen is roughly as valuable as the hydrogen produced, assuming 8 cents/kWh. The price equivalence, despite the inefficiencies of electrical production and electrolysis, are due to the fact that most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels which couple more efficiently to producing the chemical directly, than they do to producing electricity.
Yet another reason for the clutch on this bad boy.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/TT--road-races/2009/June/jun1009-ttxgp-story-behind-first-crash/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/TT--road-races/2009/June/jun1009-ttxgp-story-behind-first-crash/)
Apparently this particular bike does not have a clutch and during practice the engine seized up and there was nothing the rider could do. The clutch seems like a good idea if for nothing else then being a safety measure.
As far as the debate on the interest in and practicality of electric vehicles, I say screw electric, I want a wind powered motorcycle. [thumbsup]
Quote from: pennyrobber on June 10, 2009, 10:56:35 AM
As far as the debate on the interest in and practicality of electric vehicles, I say screw electric, I want a wind powered motorcycle. [thumbsup]
I rode in some nasty wind today. Trust me when I say, you don't. ;D
What happens when you lowside this badboy at 120mph. and it slides on those batteries? [laugh]
The production of hydrogen depends on the location. Hawaii and Iceland are setting themselves up to be the "OPEC" of hydrogen and hydro-power because of abundant volcanic activity on the islands. This volcanic energy is the key component in creating extremely cheep electricity. The current method is simply dumping water in volcano chambers and passing the steam through turbines.
The trouble with hydrogen is still keeping it from leaking out of its tank being the small molecule there is.
Quote from: Triple J on June 09, 2009, 03:34:15 PM
...and the energy to do so currently comes from oil...hence the problem.
(wikipedia)
The predominant methods of hydrogen production rely on exothermic chemical reactions of fossil fuels to provide the energy needed to chemically convert feedstock into hydrogen. But when the energy supply is mechanical (hydropower or wind turbines), hydrogen can be made via high pressure electrolysis or low pressure electrolysis of water. In current market conditions, the 50 kWh of electricity consumed to manufacture one kilogram of compressed hydrogen is roughly as valuable as the hydrogen produced, assuming 8 cents/kWh. The price equivalence, despite the inefficiencies of electrical production and electrolysis, are due to the fact that most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels which couple more efficiently to producing the chemical directly, than they do to producing electricity.
+1 batteries kind of suck as they are now. The really exciting technology is Super Capacitors which the (SF based) Mission Motorcycle uses. [thumbsup]
Very cool stuff.
Quote from: bluemoco on June 09, 2009, 09:43:10 AM
I rode a Vectrix VX-1 electric scooter at an SAE meeting a couple of weeks ago.
I wanted to go to that same meeting...I missed the sign up because I forgot :( Would've been funny to see you there.
Quote from: fasterblkduc on June 10, 2009, 01:14:32 PM
I wanted to go to that same meeting...I missed the sign up because I forgot :( Would've been funny to see you there.
[laugh] No kidding! I didn't know you were an SAE member.
Too bad you weren't there - the Vectrix presentation was good, and the scoots were fun to ride. It was a bit of a reunion for me - Vectrix' Director of Sales was a friend from my days at Polaris.
Quote from: Desmostro on June 10, 2009, 01:13:10 PM
The production of hydrogen depends on the location. Hawaii and Iceland are setting themselves up to be the "OPEC" of hydrogen and hydro-power because of abundant volcanic activity on the islands. This volcanic energy is the key component in creating extremely cheep electricity. The current method is simply dumping water in volcano chambers and passing the steam through turbines.
I'm not sure what a volcano chamber is...but Hawaii and Iceleand don't have a monopoly on geothermal power by any means. Nevada for instance has a geothermal plant just south of Reno, as well as another on I-80 west of Lovelock...and there are hot springs all over the world. The problem with geothermal power, regardless of location, is that when the steam comes up from the ground it carries a high concentration of minerals with it. These minerals are prone to depositing on the turbine blades, throwing them out of balance in a relatively short time period. Preventative maintenance for this is pricey...making the electricity generated more expensive than other alternatives.
If geothermal energy was so cheap, you'd expect it to be much more common...especially in places like Hawaii, Iceland, Nevada, Wyoming, etc.
Quote from: Triple J on June 10, 2009, 02:19:53 PM
The problem with geothermal power, regardless of location, is that when the steam comes up from the ground it carries a high concentration of minerals with it. These minerals are prone to depositing on the turbine blades, throwing them out of balance in a relatively short time period. Preventative maintenance for this is pricey...making the electricity generated more expensive than other alternatives.
Which is why you don't use the steam itself to power the turbines. You use the geothermal energy to turn clean water into steam to run your turbines.
Some energy is lost in the transition, but your maintenance issues are much simpler. Just scrape the deposits off your heat exchanger, rather than the turbines.
Read the results....
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/498/3734/Motorcycle-Article/2009-Isle-of-Man-TT-TTXGP-Results.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/498/3734/Motorcycle-Article/2009-Isle-of-Man-TT-TTXGP-Results.aspx)
Oregon based teams did well.... however some notable ones did not.
to get back on topic ... did Czysz abandon the 4-cyl twin crank GP bike project?
Quote from: abby normal on June 12, 2009, 04:00:54 PM
to get back on topic ... did Czysz abandon the 4-cyl twin crank GP bike project?
Unfortunately the answer to your question is yes. :(