Ducati Monster Forum

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/06/11/hayden-to-try-different-ducati (http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/06/11/hayden-to-try-different-ducati)

Cool!   [thumbsup]

That is hands-down the best explanation I've heard yet about why the Duc is so difficult to ride and why Nicky's comfort with getting the bike sideways doesn't translate into speed on the Duc. 

Nicky is looking much better!  Hopefully they've got something here.  A little boost of confidence would be nice.  He was really sliding the bike this morning and looking a lot more comfortable while tossing in some good times.  6th place fp1.    [clap]

seems to have made a difference

I look forward to seeing improvement!

I hope this new bike/setup works for him.   

If he can reward the trust Ducati is showing (by coming up with an entirely different bike for him rather than just telling him to be aggressive) it could mean the beginning of a long and fruitful relationship for both of them.

I liked the end where he explains how he's on throttle quicker and more aggressive than Casey.  Stats like those have got to be part of the reason Duc finally agreed to drastically modify the setup and bike for him.  They couldn't argue just be more aggressive like Casey because the numbers showed he was already doing that.  Great explanation really all the way around.

Go kick some ass Nicky!

GO, NICKY GO!!!!

 [moto] [bacon] [beer]

Yay! Now he may get in some 7th and 8th place finishes!  ;D

Free Practice Spoiler ---

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/Hayden+Friday+Barcelona+breakthrough (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/Hayden+Friday+Barcelona+breakthrough)

Maybe it is the rider weight delta between him and CS that affects the bike more?

mitt

That's what I thought, then did some checking.

Yamaha and Ducati websites say:

Rossi - 67 kg
Lorenzo - 55 kg

Hayden - 68 kg
Stoner - 58 kg

I'm sure the weight difference doesn't help, but it hasn't seemed to have been a problem for Yamaha.

 :-\

*Reads the weights, and mumbles about "tiny make the beast with two backsin' moto-jockeys..." *

Eh, I'd really like to see Hayden get things going his way. I had high hopes for his season, and so far it's been pretty lousy. :-\

but.... do Rossi and Jorge have the same bike, or has Yami set them up different based on weight?

It goes to show just how complicated the rider-machine relationship is and how the culmination of countless factors can add up to either a big gain or a big loss. I get a whole new appreciation for what it takes to win in any championship when I see a technical breakdown like this.

+1
Another factor is, of course, the reduced practice and testing time. Nicky requires more of both than some ohter riders to do well.

Good for Nicky!! I really help this improves the rest of the season for him. It's been so disappointing to see him running in the back. Now, let's see some more Nicky up front!

No comment from any of you about how Stoner is smoother than Nicky? How does that factor into the "Casey relies on the electronics" arguments?

I really hope the new bike works for Nicky and the rest of the Ducati riders, it sucks that they're at the back.

I'm pretty sure that the "Casey relies on electronics" is BS.  Nicky has said a couple of times that casey runs a whole lot less traction control than Nicky does. 

BTW, Nicky was 14th in Catalunya testing and even slower than his race pace.   :'(  I'm about ready to give up on Hayden entirely.  The Duc just isn't working. 

I've given Stoner his due when it comes to his unique skillset and that motorcycle.  Him and the Ducati are just a match for each other, but have you also seen the interview with Melandri?  He thinks if you redevelop the Duc or put Stoner on a Japanese bike, he won't be quite the top dog he is now. 

It doesn't really matter though.  People fall into good situations and he's in a place where he can exploit his talents and ride the way he likes to.  If he didn't have talent he wouldn't be up front, but his talents and the Ducati go hand in hand.

And I've contended that, in fact, lots of people want to write Stoner off and over time all the justifications they've put forward are proving to be false.

"Stoner is uniquely suited to the Duc, he was crap on the Honda" - it was his first year in MotoGP, he was always a crasher & it was one season, would you say Pedrosa is crap?
"Stoner relies on the electronics & that's why he can ride the Duc" - Nicky has said that he's got lower TC settings and is super smooth

I guess the reason I find it so irritating is because it always seems like a dismissive swipe at Stoner saying "well, he's basically Quasimodo & no one else can ride the thing, if you put him on any other bike he'd suck". Based on what Nicky has said, why exactly do we think him being super smooth and turning his TC way down would make him unsuited to other bikes? All the Duc riders have said that the rear end pumps in corners, how do you get around that, apparently not by hitting it really hard & relying on the TC. The only way to make it work (apparently) is to be ridiculously smooth. That is a very good quality in a rider, having a very good sense of feel and being very smooth makes you go fast, so why exactly does everyone hate on Stoner?

If people just don't like him, fine, I don't really care but don't mask your (not you specifically) dislike for the guy with half assed and transparent "reasons" to dismiss his skill. He's apparently riding around a bike that's impossible for anyone else to do well on *AND* around the usual problems with race bikes (clutch, steering damper, etc.) and still at the very pointy end of the championship. What's the kid got to do to get some respect?

an adriana stoner sex video couldn't hurt...

(http://www.gridcrasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/76956552.jpg)

just sayin'...
 ;D

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

bet it'd sell/market faster and better and more repetative than "One Night in Paris!"...at least amongst the motorcycling community!...LOL...just kiddin wit ya Casey!

I actually thought Stoner was pretty fast on the Honda.  He did crash a lot, but he got a surprise pole position too.  When was the last time we saw a satellite Honda on pole, even without a rookie?

They're the only couple in existence that comfortably fits into a twin sized bed.  Actually, that's not completely true.  I'm sure Pedrobot and Papa Smurf can comfortably spoon on a baby-crib mattress.

what the heck does it mean when hayden says the bike "pumps" in the corners?

As I understand it, it means that the rear end of the bike compresses & uncompresses, i.e. bounces. Anyone have a better explanation?

I'm just paraphrasing what he said, but rather than the rear just sliding, it hooks up and then unhooks and then hooks up again.  This either causes (or is caused by) the rear suspension and the rear of the bike to pogo, or "pump."  Then he said that this pumping of the rear (sound dirty) causes the rest of the bike to do the same.

So basically, as he gets it in the corner, the chasis starts bouncing around.  Casey apparently has figured out how to either deal with the chassis getting all out of whack or ride the bike (different throttle application? -- Hayden did say that Casey is a lot smoother w/ the throttle) to limit the pumping. 

that's basically what i understand it to mean: the electronics and the suspension are fighting each other as the tires slip.

I would like to bring up the point about the smooth throttle application though.  As we've seen by watching Stoner's duc, no matter how smooth he may be applying throttle, that bike bucks regardless.  So it doesn't seem to me that he's really figured anything out... its not as if he is able to stop the thing from fighting itself.  I honestly think he just has more balls than anyone else and rides through it with the faith the bike will stay underneath him.  Kallio found something during Monday's test... so maybe we have someone new with the cojones as well.  Either that or he adopted the changes Hayden is going for and found success with it.

Stoner is good no matter which way you argue it, but Hayden is a good rider too.  So it stands to reason that Stoner's skill set just happens to match that bike.  You can see that as an excuse or just accept it for what it is.

I thought the data showed that Hayden opens it up as soon or sooner than Stoner.  How does Stoner have more blind faith, then?

Also, just to point it out: I consider both of them "good," but that doesn't mean that Stoner isn't better.  Based on the evidence, I think he does have a synergistic relationship with the Ducati, though.

It turns into an evil writhing serpent...

 ;)

Very likely that if Hayden is using more traction control, then he can open the throttle earlier.  Just because he's being more aggressive than Casey doesn't mean his bike is setup anywhere near the same way.

casey's bike pumps all the time too.  watch him exit almost any corner.  the magic relationship he has with that bike is that somehow he ignores it.

Part A of Stoner's Brain:
"This thing is trying to kill me!"

Part B:
Everything will be fine.
Just hang on.

 [laugh]

I don't know, so, for those who remember, when was the last time Casey fell off on corner exit?

i can't really recall an exit crash.  unless you count laguna last year   [cheeky]

most of the time he's thrown the duc down has been entry and mid.  i think.

Watching Casey's bike is insane.  After he's well past the apex of a turn and almost halfway to the rumble strips on the exit, the bike looks like it lowsides.  It looks like it looses grip with both rear and front at the same time and just slides away from him.  Every time I'm positive he's gonna lose it.  Then he just picks it up, gets to the rumble strips and take off.  WTF?  Then the bike does the same thing the next turn.  And the next one.  And the next one.

It's not like one of those two wheel drifts that are hard to see on TV.  It's a really dynamic action.  And it happens constantly.  I have no idea how he rides that f'n thing. 

Yeah I feel yah there.  Last year, um, turn 9 at Laguna, the next left past the corkscrew.  I swear the Duc was gonna crash coming out of that turn almost every time around.  It would start to pump and always looks like Stoner is gonna either lowside or the rear is gonna step out fling him down the track.  It really does just seem that he ignores it tbh.

That's why he does what he does for a living, and we do what we do.  ;D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76463 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76463)

Neither does Nicky [roll] or for that matter - anybody else

And Simoncelli doesn't even want to get involved with that boogie man, er, motorcycle.  No sense in ending your GP career after one season.   :P

I recently read an article about this.  In the 70's and 80's frames were tubular.  The improvement in tires and the increased in power were too much for these frames.  In the 90's they switched to the aluminum spar frames.  And recently they've strengthen the frames even more.  The increased strength has made the frames too rigid.  This is the problem with GP9, the frame is to rigid, when the riders come out of the turns and get on the gas the frame doesn't react well.  They compared the frame rigidity with a bell.  Hit a bell and it resonates at a certain frequency.  When the riders crank up the power to the rear wheel the rigid frame starts to resonate at 2-3 cycles per second.  This causes the bounce in the rear.

The article went on to say that Ducati has replaced parts of the frame with carbon fiber.  And that they may have added some dampening layers to the carbon fiber.

Supposedly with a very rigid frame and enough power the resonating can become so bad it will throw a rider off the bike. 

I think the problem is that the TC gets into the act as well, tending to amplify the bounce/pump.
I would think, from my rudimentary knowledge of TC, they could electronically tune that out.

Frame strength isn't an issue, AFAIK.
When was the last time there was a frame that *broke* in normal service in Moto GP?

Frame stiffness is an issue, horizontally, vertically and in torsion, so that's a puzzle.
But you can get those to be whatever you want in a steel trellis frame, same as with an aluminum frame or a CF frame.
Manufacturing precision I think is better on CF parts, and it's pretty easy to tune all the stiffnesses.

Maybe it's something else causing it.  :P

(http://www.gridcrasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/76956552.jpg)


THIS IS   the reason why many hate Casey [evil]... And the reason for him being 'not fit?' [bang] [bang] [bang]
Remember his days with Aprilia 250GP? The races between him and Pedrosa? How he'd fall down on the last strecht of the race and Pedrosa win? He was riding the belts out of the Dunlops, IMHO he's better rider than many, OK, Rossi fans, don't hit me, he still has a long road to travel, who knows, maybe he'll break some of his records, or Lorenzo or Dovi; but Pedrosa? Simoncelli? 8)
Nicky's fine, he just needs to get a pair of replacement cojones and get the TC setting on 1, forget about 'what if?' and just go, this is MHO. ???
Many good riders, the only italian that has been able to handle the Duc, is Cappirosi and when it came the 800cc era, he was at the back of the pack. :o
And sorry for the question, where df is Kalio? Been working 16hrs for the last 3 days and no tv time or too much internet either. Hopefully ESPN 2 is going to transmit the race at 1600h CET. [bacon] [drink]

it's not a cojone issue...



not sure what being italian has to do with it...


getting part of his left hand replaced after his last-corner crash in assen damn near took off his ring finger.

LMAO!! [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

<3 minutes for that response Derby.  You were just waiting to use that one.

http://www.motogpmatters.com/news/2009/07/16/nicky_hayden_i_m_starting_to_enjoy_ridin.html (http://www.motogpmatters.com/news/2009/07/16/nicky_hayden_i_m_starting_to_enjoy_ridin.html)