Series of events:
Friday Night
-Change belts and oil (found flakes in oil)
Saturday Morning
-Wheel bike out of house and fire up. Bike starts normally, sounds good.
-Shut bike off and wheel other bikes off porch and finish gearing up.
-Try to start Mother's bike again. Not happening. Belts look like they're trying to move, there's a heavy clicking (not sounding like a solenoid clicking). Lights work, guages sweep.
-Jump Mother's bike off my bike and it runs fine, though it needs a valve check since its not idling well.
We went off on a long ride and had to jump the bike after the first two fuel stops. After we stopped and ate, the bike miraculously started on its own. Then we had to jump it again after we stopped at our last fuel stop.
I took a video of what its doing, sound isn't great, but it'll give you an idea of what we're seeing. I'll post it up soon.
Ideas? What should we check?
Oh, the bike is an 03 620 with 40k miles.
MrI says you guys should check the valves.
Adding to it, he just hooked up the battery (which is less than a month old) to the trickle charger and its charging the battery, which apparently means its below 80%.
He just mumbled something about a stator....
Quote from: somegirl on June 14, 2009, 11:23:13 AM
MrI says you guys should check the valves.
Well yeah. I think we were hoping for an easily fixable electrical gremlin as opposed to having to do a valve check right now when we have good weather and only one car to use.
Check the battery ground wire where it attaches to the crankcase on the right side.
Remove the bolt, clean the terminal and the case surface around the bolt.
Use a little dielectric grease on it, bolt it back up.
Try to start it, and feel the cable connections at the battery, the ground wire at the cases, and the positive wires at the solenoid and starter.
If they're getting hot, there's resistance due to a bad/corroded connection.
If you are going to remove the connection at the starter make *sure* the threaded stud isn't turning when you turn the nut.
Thanks Nick. We'll look at that, gonna charge the battery up first.
Here's a video:
VID 00001 20090614 1107 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1T3EwZ0EM#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
All main electrical connections are clean and solid
Battery Pos/Neg cleand and solid
Starter post clean and solid
Ground to case clean and solid
Little ground on computer clean and solid
battery has been charging for a couple hours now...Stator issue?
I put a lightweight flywheel on it a couple years ago, if the bolt backed out would it disrupt the stator's operation?
If you can get the bike started, check the voltage at the battery with it running.
Should be 13.5 - 14 V or so with moderate engine rpm.
That will tell you if the charging system is working.
Voltage on a freshly charged battery should be 12.5 V or so.
Quote from: somegirl on June 14, 2009, 11:23:13 AM
MrI says you guys should check the valves.
Do'h. Yes, but just to get rid of the fact that they're probably woefully out of whack. It should still start.
Dang wife-quoting my drug induced haze. I'm locking her up more.
Quote from: MrIncredible on June 14, 2009, 04:05:02 PM
Do'h. Yes, but just to get rid of the fact that they're probably woefully out of whack. It should still start.
Dang wife-quoting my drug induced haze. I'm locking her up more.
You had some justification for it when I questioned you on it too. :P
was it pee'd on?
i bet it isnt charging....
figure out a way to insure a good connection between the reg/rect. (zip ties work well)
2% of the time with charging/starting issues the problem is the stator on a 3-phase system. It's a Nippon-Denso. They just don't break (98% of the time that is YMMV).
The starter could be suspect... Try removing that fancy-assed lower cowl of yours and then as you're pressing the 'START' button, try tapping the starter with a hammer (not hard...just a 'nudge' if you will) to see if that changes the outcome.
Report back your results.
Battery on tender for 6 hrs hasn't brought it to fully charged yet
but
the bike starts
so either I make the beast with two backsed up the priming of the battery out of the box
or
battery not charging (but I have to say that this is the strangest low battery behavior I have ever seen)
Next question
How many miles can a duc go on just the battery with a system that is not charging?
Quote from: Mother on June 14, 2009, 10:04:49 PMseen)
Next question
How many miles can a duc go on just the battery with a system that is not charging?
Have you go hard wired headlights on that one?
I'd expect to go at least several hours on a fully charged battery on my bike with the headlight switched off, maybe an hour or so with the headlight switched on... I'd guess the fuel injected bikes would probably do something like half of that (my dinosaur tech carbs don't need the electric fuel pump to keep them supplied with fuel, or the brainbox powered up to open the injectors.)
big
Yeah, head lights always on and FI
so if the system was not charging, there is no way I could have ridden the 250+ miles that I did yesterday
My my toolbox and multimeter is not here so trying to figure out electrical issues with assumption based logic is [bang]
You could have a fried regulator and be getting a partial charge. Get your meter.
Quote from: DDDDan on June 15, 2009, 03:37:09 AM
You could have a fried regulator and be getting a partial charge. Get your meter.
or if the connection was intermittent, loose.......
i am pushing this option because thats what happened to me last summer. ended up using a zip tie to keep things together. no more problem
Had a customer with a weak stator putting out 10-16V AC (should be at least 40) who ran for months as his stator got weaker and weaker.
My $ is on the improper set-up of your new battery. Also, there are some batteries now coming out of China that aren't worth the $ 'saved' in the purchase price (IMO).
This is a stock Duc battery (Yuasa) purchased from Motocorsa
Put the acid'maflochy in the holes, let it sit for awhile and then charged it overnight with the Battery Tender Plus
Also purchased from Motocorsa
So it better not be chinese shit for the 250 bucks I spent
I'm going to triple check my connections again and clean/grease all the connections to the rectifier and then go over it with my meter
then i'm going to swear at it
When my voltage regulator blew up on my bike it also took out the charge fuse. Found that out after I went about 60 mi up a mountain and came back down. Was on my way to get gas and bike just died one me.
Quote from: Mother on June 14, 2009, 10:04:49 PM
Next question
How many miles can a duc go on just the battery with a system that is not charging?
K got my meter
Fully charged battery read 13.5 volts
Turned on the ignition 12.7
Turned it off and rechecked the standing voltage 12.9
Quote from: Mother on June 15, 2009, 09:59:30 AM
K got my meter
Fully charged battery read 13.5 volts
Turned on the ignition 12.7
Turned it off and rechecked the standing voltage 12.9
How about with it running at 3k - 4k rpm?
Quote from: Speeddog on June 15, 2009, 10:05:35 AM
How about with it running at 3k - 4k rpm?
Checked battery again
Ignition off...14.5
Running at Idle...13.8
Running at 4500RPM...14.2
14.5 at ignition off ???
Quote from: Speeddog on June 15, 2009, 10:36:53 AM
14.5 at ignition off ???
Yeah...it actually climbed from the check 10 minutes before
and the meter is new and spendy, contacts are clean
splain me that lucy?
is it Voodoo?
Based on those numbers, I'd say put the meter in a backpack or tankbag, and ride around for 15 minutes, then check again.
and let us know how the swearing at it works out....
i usually end up swearing at myself when i figure out what i was doing stupid.
Just a simple thought: you replaced belts and battery recently and now it's running funny. If the timing marks line up I'd suspect the battery. Can you borrow J's battery for a little while?
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on June 16, 2009, 06:58:45 AM
Just a simple thought: you replaced belts and battery recently and now it's running funny. If the timing marks line up I'd suspect the battery. Can you borrow J's battery for a little while?
Scott
He's already using my car while his is getting finished, I'm not giving up my battery too.
Quote from: JBubble on June 16, 2009, 08:40:54 AM
He's already using my car while his is getting finished, I'm not giving up my battery too.
What'd he do to the jeep now?
Quote from: NAKID on June 16, 2009, 10:01:35 AM
What'd he do to the jeep now?
Its been getting rebuilt for the past couple months. I couldn't begin to name what all is being changed on it cause I wasn't paying any attention but they're really beefing it up apparently. Mother says its gonna be 'badass'. In the meantime, he's driving the Audi.
So does this mean that you won't be standing around waiting for him to get out of a ditch why frying the clutch again?
Quote from: NAKID on June 16, 2009, 11:02:27 AM
So does this mean that you won't be standing around waiting for him to get out of a ditch why frying the clutch again?
One can only hope. [thumbsup]
We'll continue with the diagnosis of his bike soon. Not much time between working and sleeping for the next couple days.
48hrs later
battery still holding at 13.1
taking it for a ride later tonight
<later>
Engine fired right up initially and at destination
after ride
battery at 13v
4500rpm 13.2v
soooo, any ideas nick?
Quote from: Mother on June 17, 2009, 06:03:31 PM
48hrs later
battery still holding at 13.1
taking it for a ride later tonight
<later>
Engine fired right up initially and at destination
after ride
battery at 13v
4500rpm 13.2v
soooo, any ideas nick?
The battery will probably read 12.4 or so after a few hours, 13.2 @ 4500 might be low. You checked the plug connection for the regulator? Is it hot when the bike is running?
13.2 is low IMO..
Quote from: DDDDan on June 18, 2009, 03:43:21 AMYou checked the plug connection for the regulator? Is it hot when the bike is running?
Certain models of Honda (VFRs and VTR1000s from the late '90's early '00s) had common regulator/rectifier problems that often stemmed from bad earthing of the reg/rec - it might be worth checking it's not corroded where it bolts to the frame...
big
Quote from: DDDDan on June 18, 2009, 03:43:21 AM
The battery will probably read 12.4 or so after a few hours, 13.2 @ 4500 might be low. You checked the plug connection for the regulator? Is it hot when the bike is running?
It is uncomfortble to leave your hand on but i wouldn't call it hot
Quote from: Mr Natural on June 18, 2009, 04:13:22 AM
13.2 is low IMO..
How low?
like broken low?
Quote from: bigiain on June 18, 2009, 04:15:03 AM
Certain models of Honda (VFRs and VTR1000s from the late '90's early '00s) had common regulator/rectifier problems that often stemmed from bad earthing of the reg/rec - it might be worth checking it's not corroded where it bolts to the frame...
big
I think it might be worth it to just pull it and find a new one
anyone have a source for one not from Ducati?
I haven't looked yet but I imagine they are spendy from Italy
The plastic plug on the regulator will start turning brown if it's getting too hot.
Same for the wires.
The regulator itself will get hot to the touch when the bike has been running for a bit.
Not OW! F*CK! THAT'S HOT!, but definitely too hot to keep your hand on.
13.2 is a bit lower than I'd like to see.
How long were you riding last night?
On my single-phase '95 M900, the good regulator was running and at higher rpm (3-4K) it was warm to the touch but you could leave your hand on it indefinitely. If yours is too hot to keep your hand on it, you may have funky-ness going on inside the regulator. 95% of the time on the 3-phase systems, all charging issues are the regulator. Stators are usually like a light-switch. (either ON or OFF)
Used regulators (since 95% of the time they're good, I've had no problem using a used regulator) sell for about $50.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 18, 2009, 12:05:05 PM
The plastic plug on the regulator will start turning brown if it's getting too hot.
Same for the wires.
The regulator itself will get hot to the touch when the bike has been running for a bit.
Not OW! F*CK! THAT'S HOT!, but definitely too hot to keep your hand on.
13.2 is a bit lower than I'd like to see.
How long were you riding last night?
15 minutes
The plug is nice and white and the wires are not discolored
If it hasn't been menioned already, check for corrosion on the connectory from the regulator. It's a common source of problems. Just undo the connector and see if it looks dirty.
Scott
Quote from: bigiain on June 18, 2009, 04:15:03 AM
Certain models of Honda (VFRs and VTR1000s from the late '90's early '00s) had common regulator/rectifier problems that often stemmed from bad earthing of the reg/rec - it might be worth checking it's not corroded where it bolts to the frame...
big
I love the way you guys say ground.
Your (slightly) low charging rate can still be from the connections, particularly if you are measuring at the battery. By the time the stator connection turns brown you usually have major resistance and a pretty big voltage drop. Clean, tighten and pack that connection with dielectric grease. At the least, this is good preventative maintenance. While you are at it, also clean the battery connections regulator ground and the engine ground. Now test again. If you are putting out 13.5V or better, problem solved. Also, since your charging rate is close you may want to compare your meter with a known good meter.
If you need a regulator, you can buy a good aftermarket here:
http://www.electrosport.com (http://www.electrosport.com) or http://www.ca-cycleworks.com (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com)
You may also want to read through this:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php)
Cool
thanks for the links Howie
I appreciate it