Some info:
- '05 M620
- '04 S4R forks
- '05 MTS1K 4-pot calipers
- Galfer Wave rotors
I'm swapping my stock forks for S4R forks and have hit a snag during installation. The brake pad "guide" (hard part on caliper) is making contact and rubbing against the rotor on one side. I'm still able to spin the wheel, but the rotor is shaving off the lower tab on the caliper. The donor forks have no visible damage and I don't suspect them to be bent. Prior to the S4R forks, this brake set up worked perfectly with my stock M620 forks.
I'm considering filing this tab down a little so that there's enough clearance...any reason not to do this? It is possible to get the brake pad in on that side, which pushes the caliper far enough away so that no hard parts are scraping the rotor, but this can't possibly be good for pad wear. Also, the caliper only starts to hit when it is tightened. The last few turns of the bolts seem to kink the caliper in such a way that this lower tab contacts the rotor. The wheel moves freely when the caliper is mocked up with the bolts still loose.
TIA for any insights/suggestions. Pictures of exactly what's hitting what to come this evening...
That collection of parts should work with no problems, AFAIK.
Do you still have the OEM rotors to try?
Pics will help...
I do still have the OEM rotors, but they're only the 310mm Brembos as my stock 620 had the crappier 2-pot calipers.
Pics are coming...I ran out of patience last night after being defeated by the installation and was too lazy to upload pics. :P
Did you already try to loosen everything and then re-tighten? I'd start by reinstalling the forks, the front wheel, the rotor and the caliper. It shouldn't take too long and that'll often solve the problem if something is binding or rubbing.
Also, you have a caliper carrier on your 620 that goes between the calipers and the forks, right? If so, are you using it with your current set-up?
Not yet, but that's the next plan of attack. Everything will be coming off and be reinstalled to make sure all is seated properly.
Yes, caliper carriers were necessary with the stock set up, but the ones from the MTS are the larger 4-pot Brembos and bolt directly to the forks.
Thx Speeddog & Spidey for the initial advice. [thumbsup]
Shim, grind, or.......................
Whatever works, it's not precision work.
No time to work on the bike tonight, but here's a couple pics of what's going on. The brake pad is not in and you can see where the "guide/tab" of the caliper (where the pad would rest) is making contact with the rotor.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_beyYkNn5r7A/SjhyXUtei0I/AAAAAAAADzU/4aL19ehuPUw/s800/DSC_0577.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_beyYkNn5r7A/SjhyZqtYmhI/AAAAAAAADzY/Hph2XVttUU4/s800/DSC_0579.jpg)
If reinstalling everything doesn't work, would it be better to file this piece down a little on the caliper or to put in a spacer between the caliper and the fork leg?
Thx again, everyone.
From the pictures, it appears a spacer is just going to make it worse.
IMO, don't go filing on that piece just yet.
Are you *sure* those are the right Galfer rotors?
Maybe the MTS forks have a different location for the caliper mount bosses, and thus a different caliper.
That might explain it.
???
how much play do you have on the other end? Could a washer/spacer move it out? That looks sketchy, I wouldn't fudge with the brakes.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 16, 2009, 10:15:23 PM
Are you *sure* those are the right Galfer rotors?
They are identical to S4R snowflake rotors in diameter and offset and worked with my stock forks and MTS calipers. I don't see why they then would cause problems with S4R forks. I was under the impression that there was no difference between the S4R fork bottoms and my stock 620's. Maybe there is and I didn't do my homework? [bang] It's just odd because it's only happening on this one side. The right side mounts up just fine with the pads and has no issues with clearance.
Quote from: m9hundo on June 16, 2009, 10:18:11 PM
how much play do you have on the other end? Could a washer/spacer move it out? That looks sketchy, I wouldn't fudge with the brakes.
I agree...I don't feel good about filing the calipers. There's a lot more clearance on the top end. Something is just odd about how the caliper kinks and pushes the bottom of it into the rotor when tightening the bolts that hold it to the fork--especially when it's only happening on the left side.
I'm still definitely going to pull everything off first and reinstall. I really hope that something funky is going on there... [roll]
Maybe that fork is tweaked a bit. ???
Quote from: pompetta on June 17, 2009, 05:49:24 AM
Maybe that fork is tweaked a bit. ???
Or maybe you over-torqued your axle? wouldn't that pull the fork in a bit?
If one side is different from the other, it's time to get out a tape measure and figure out why.
could you possibly have put the wheel spacer on the wrong side? making the wheel much closer to one for than the other? i don't know, just throwing out thoughts...
can you say how much interference it has ? i am surprised but could be a minute variation in the fork.
loosen and retorque everything
i would loosen and "finger tight" all the bolts and see how it fits before retorqing. feels like soemthign is pushing it.
Quote from: pompetta on June 17, 2009, 05:49:24 AM
Maybe that fork is tweaked a bit. ???
FML.
Quote from: corey on June 17, 2009, 06:40:01 AM
Or maybe you over-torqued your axle? wouldn't that pull the fork in a bit?
Axle was only torqued to 20 lb-ft. so that I could bounce the front end and make sure everything was seated properly...still hoping that for some reason it still isn't seated right.
Quote from: corey on June 17, 2009, 07:24:08 AM
could you possibly have put the wheel spacer on the wrong side? making the wheel much closer to one for than the other? i don't know, just throwing out thoughts...
Negative.
I should be able to work on the bike tonight . I'll update with my findings...
Update: I was able to wrench on the bike last night, so I pulled the calipers and wheel off again and did some more inspecting. The forks are good, same measurements on both sides. The distance between the caliper bolt holes and the rotors are the same at all four points. I mounted everything again and was still making contact at the same point. I checked the other side (that doesn't scrape) and noticed that there's basically 1-2mm of clearance between the rotor and caliper and I really think it would be no problem if I had OEM Brembo rotors as they are a lot thinner than my Galfers.
I went ahead with the filing of the one caliper that was scraping and took off just enough material for it to clear. It visually looks the same, except for the now exposed metal from where I filed. Everything seems to be A-OK now, but I wasn't able to ride it last night.
I think the only thing worrying me at this point is how much the pads are contacting the rotor...I can only get about a 3/4 spin of the front wheel when giving it a good "kick" with my foot. All four pads dropped in easily this time so I don't think there are any more clearance issues. The pads and rotors only have about 2K miles on them since they were put on and I had similar results at first installation. This might all go away after taking it around the block a few times...
Thanks again to all for the insights/info.
Still seems like a lot of drag on the pads after the re-install considering that pads have been broken in already.
My worry is that is that the excessive drag will create too much heat and FUBAR the new rotors, or worse yet heat up enough to lock it up when parts expand from the heat. Seen it happen before unfortunately.
Quote from: DarkStaR on June 19, 2009, 09:12:03 AM
Still seems like a lot of drag on the pads after the re-install considering that pads have been broken in already.
I could buy that IF the pads were installed in exactly the same location as they were taken off. FWIW, my wheels seem to be "sticky" every time I put them back together, but they're usually fine after a ride. (IMO, it has more to do with pressure of the fluid in the calipers equalizing than anything to do with the pads.)
b. If I were you, I'd button it up and find a place you can re-bed the pads.
http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm (http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm)
And check after a few stops to see how hot the brakes are. The calipers, not the rotor. The rotor will be hot as hell, and should be. If, after 7 or 8 stops, and a short ride, the calipers are hot, you've got a problem.
Quote from: dlearl476 on June 19, 2009, 09:27:36 AM
I could buy that IF the pads were installed in exactly the same location as they were taken off.
They were put back in the same location/orientation.
Quote from: dlearl476 on June 19, 2009, 09:27:36 AM
FWIW, my wheels seem to be "sticky" every time I put them back together, but they're usually fine after a ride. (IMO, it has more to do with pressure of the fluid in the calipers equalizing than anything to do with the pads.)
That makes sense.
I don't know. 1-2mm of clearance between caliper and rotor doesn't seem anywhere near enough. Ideally, the rotor should be right in the middle of the open space in the caliper...
Quote from: NAKID on June 19, 2009, 09:51:57 AM
I don't know. 1-2mm of clearance between caliper and rotor doesn't seem anywhere near enough. Ideally, the rotor should be right in the middle of the open space in the caliper...
On the side that was no issue at all, the rotor is right in the middle of the open space--it's just that there's only that 1-2mm of clearance on each side. I agree, it's awfully close and I would like to see more...
Quote from: dlearl476 on June 19, 2009, 09:27:36 AM
And check after a few stops to see how hot the brakes are. The calipers, not the rotor. The rotor will be hot as hell, and should be. If, after 7 or 8 stops, and a short ride, the calipers are hot, you've got a problem.
This is the plan. I want to take it around for a little bit and check things out. Things always seem to adjust after a ride so hopefully I don't experience any of these overheating issues with the brakes.
Quote from: b. on June 19, 2009, 10:07:31 AM
On the side that was no issue at all, the rotor is right in the middle of the open space--it's just that there's only that 1-2mm of clearance on each side. I agree, it's awfully close and I would like to see more...
Did you buy the forks used? If so, I'd hazard a guess that one of the flanges on the fork is tweaked a tiny bit. (Really hard to total a bike with zero damage to the front end, if your forks indeed came from at total.)
IMO, 1-2 mm isn't a game-stopper and probably has to do more with the relative thickeness of the Wave vs. OEM rotor than anything.
One last hunch: Are you sure the discs are seated properly? I ask because when I put my OEM rotors on my new Alpina wheels, one of the rotors had a little excess paint in the ID and on one side of the rotor and I had to sand it off to get the rotor to mate properly with the wheel. You might want to give that a look. Then again, I believe you said the tab is closer on the top vs bottom or vice versa, so maybe that doesn't apply.
one last thought... how many times does your wheel spin WITHOUT the calipers mounted?
your axle isn't bent is it?
Quote from: corey on June 19, 2009, 12:28:55 PM
one last thought... how many times does your wheel spin WITHOUT the calipers mounted?
your axle isn't bent is it?
<Just so there's no confusion why I'm answering also, the bike is being worked on in my garage>
It's spinning normally w/ out the pads in the calipers...approximatley +10 rotations or so.
Alright, so I took the bike out for a short ride that included several hard stops. The suspension performed just fine, much better than my stock ones and nothing felt out of the ordinary. The brakes felt fine as well, no vibration in the lever and no difference in stopping power prior to the fork swap. I checked the calipers as dlearl476 described after some hard stops and they were cool to the touch.
After getting the bike back in the garage and up on stands again, I spun the front wheel to see if anything had "loosened" up, but it was still difficult to spin the front wheel--almost one full rotation with a good kick. Looking at the calipers and pads again resulted in this find:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_beyYkNn5r7A/Sjz75I-GZOI/AAAAAAAAD0c/rOfmF-LSJ_U/s800/DSC_0585.jpg)
This is a head on shot from the front of the bike at the caliper that I was having issues with scraping the rotor. It's a little difficult to see at first, but there's obviously some sort of kink in the fork bottom. You can see that the brake pad does not sit parallel to the rotor and that the upper piston protrudes ever so slightly more than the lower. The other side of the bike is fine.
This is obviously bad for pad wear, but I assume this can only lead to worse things. Can anyone shed light on what might happen if I rode it like this? I figure I have to choose from the options below:
1. Ride it as is and see what happens... :-\
2. Shim the top caliper bolt to bring the caliper/pads parallel with the rotor
3. Grind the lower fork leg bolt hole to bring the caliper/pads parallel with the rotor (I'd much rather shim)
4. Put the stock forks back on and figure out what to do with my new paper weights...
If it were me I'd shim it and wait for a smoking deal on a good fork lower. A bent fork is virtually worthless and I'd think in many cases the lower would be okay. AFAIK, you never answered my question about the "used" fork, I'm still assuming it's off a wrecked bike, right? That would explain the situation.
I assume that the forks seem straight in the sense that they have good action and travel, and the axle slides in/out easily. Apparently it's just the caliper mounting flange that is canted to one side due to prior mystery crash damage, and the consequence is exaggerated by the relatively thick aftermarket rotors. Caliper interference was removed with light grinding of the caliper and there is no overheating or binding on initial test ride, although the "spin the wheel" test result indicates more than ideal friction (less than one revolution).
I would very carefully inspect the fork bottom for unseen damage or cracks, measure the distance between the R/L caliper mounting flanges to try and characterize the extent of the tweak at the upper and lower bolt holes, and then carefully ride it as is for a few rides with the intention of keeping it as is. As the pads conform to the new contact angle your spin test might improve. Just my $0.02.
BK
Quote from: dlearl476 on June 20, 2009, 10:23:47 AM
AFAIK, you never answered my question about the "used" fork, I'm still assuming it's off a wrecked bike, right? That would explain the situation.
Yes, they're used, and came from an S4R that was being parted out. I didn't get any additional information other than that they were sold as "good shape with no damage."
Quote from: BK_856er on June 20, 2009, 10:32:37 AM
I assume that the forks seem straight in the sense that they have good action and travel, and the axle slides in/out easily. Apparently it's just the caliper mounting flange that is canted to one side due to prior mystery crash damage, and the consequence is exaggerated by the relatively thick aftermarket rotors. Caliper interference was removed with light grinding of the caliper and there is no overheating or binding on initial test ride, although the "spin the wheel" test result indicates more than ideal friction (less than one revolution).
I would very carefully inspect the fork bottom for unseen damage or cracks, measure the distance between the R/L caliper mounting flanges to try and characterize the extent of the tweak at the upper and lower bolt holes, and then carefully ride it as is for a few rides with the intention of keeping it as is. As the pads conform to the new contact angle your spin test might improve. Just my $0.02.
BK
The forks seem to "work" just fine although it really was a short test ride. I've inspected the fork bottom a lot (aside from trying to remove it from the fork slider) and there's no visible damage. ???
Measurements were taken from R/L caliper bolt holes to the rotor and each point was exactly the same distance. I'm not sure what else to measure...
I really would like to keep it as is and ride it around easily until I'm confident things work. I guess I'm just afraid that I'm putting myself in danger if this could lead to some sort of failure in parts. I intend to ride to Laguna Seca for motoGP and will have the opportunity to take some easy rides before hand, but the fear of something bad happening on the trip is keeping me up at night...
Anyone else have any thoughts on the consequences of shimming or riding it as is?
what about replacing the slider?
Shim it. That is the easiest, reversible option other than just riding it out. Good luck!
Oh, and you know where to find me when you get it sorted. The vinyl will look good on those forks before Laguna 8)
Quote from: b. on June 20, 2009, 11:16:06 AM
I really would like to keep it as is and ride it around easily until I'm confident things work.
The first sign of trouble will be a leaking fork seal. If that happens, something's up.
I wish I could put an end to your worries, but I can't. Only you can assess the risk for yourself. http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Showa+fork+failure&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8. (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Showa+fork+failure&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8.)
...so we also found that the caliper on the questionable side is pretty damn close to hitting the spokes on the wheel. If for some reason these make contact during a ride, I'd eff myself up pretty bad. It seems that this fork's minute bend is magnified with all the other parts mounted up. I'm really questioning other alignment issues and future damage I could be causing...not to mention dlearl476's last post downright scared the shit outta me.
I just don't feel good about riding with them. I've contacted the place I bought them from regarding a return since the part is damaged. I hope there's no issues getting a refund. [roll] The stock forks will be going back on and I'll be back on the hunt for better front suspension. Dammit. [bang]
Thx all for the help.
Dude, I'm sorry I posted that, but I had to. As bad as I feel about your wasted time and effort, imagine how I'd feel if I said "WTF, just ride it." (which, fwiw, is what I'd probably do. But then I go riding off-road in the desert by myself if that's any indication I my level of intelligence. [cheeky]) and then I hear you had an accident. :'(
by way of a disclaimer, those F650 Showas are "built to a cost" i.e. cheap, and probably nowhere near the quality that Ducati puts on their bikes. There is talk in some circles that it was a defect in manufacture. (I don't know how deep you went, but IIRC that catastrophic failure has happened in about ten bikes, not accident related, and almost all of the bikes were ridden, fully loaded, off-road or on very bad roads like the Al-Can highway)
If you can't get your money back (I think it's doubtful, ime with used part vendors) one thing you CAN do: take off the fork lower and take it to a machine shop that does work on racing cars and bikes, have them "magnaflux" it. That will reveal if there are any invisible cracks in the casting that could eventually fail.
No sweat, dude. I asked for this kind of information to help me make a decision. I already have a shop in mind in case this return doesn't work out, but if the vendor doesn't honor his return policy then I'm going to my CC company next.