Ducati Monster Forum

So I have an '04 KTM 200 EXC dirt bike I'd like to sell so I can get a track bike. However, a guy has offered to trade me for his '02 Honda CRF 450...which brings me to the 450 super singles.

I read about this in a bike mag. a couple months ago, where people turn 450 dirt bikes into road race bikes. Here's the site the article referenced: http://www.450moto.net/index.php (http://www.450moto.net/index.php)

Looks like you need to get new wheels, bodywork, damper, rearsets, and have the suspension re-done and lowered.

Looks like it could be pretty fun. Has anyone ever seen one of these...or better yet ridden one? General thoughts?

always wanted to make one for street, just for the oddity of it. I imagine it would be a blast to ride!  [thumbsup]

Elana Myers destroyed the AFM on one last weekend.

Pics:  http://4theriders.com/viewpics.php?loc=/pics/afm/2009/r4_thill/21/ (http://4theriders.com/viewpics.php?loc=/pics/afm/2009/r4_thill/21/)

So you're saying it's a girls bike?   [popcorn]



 ;D ;D Great pictures!  [thumbsup]

She ran a 600 at an earlier round and crushed everyone there too.  They started selling these T-shirts:

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_yQnBKyOerAg/ShSIeGrUNcI/AAAAAAAAADM/BC-hMDw3Iaw/s400/afm-elena-myers.jpg)

especially this one...

(http://4theriders.com/pics/afm/2009/r4_thill/21/TIMG_1103.JPG)

my guess is this was 100% cocky ham!


anyways, I have seen where people also find a 2 stroke bike like a TZ250 or or something of the like and grapht in the 450 motor and go from there...

 [laugh] [laugh] That's great!

So what's the reason for using 450s...because they fit in a specific race class?

I'm only thinking 450 because there are readily available fairing kits. Would any dirtbike base work?  ???

I don't know if other dirtbike bases work because I don't know that much about them.  But I bet it's a power thing.  A single is not particularly well-suited for a roadracing track .  They get hot and they lose out on the top end.  A 250 single would be SERIOUSLY underpowered.  We used to race 250 ninjas against DRZ 400 'tards, and engine-wise, they were close.  The 400 had more torque, but was hurtin' at the top end.  It's one thing to race an underpowered bike, but as a trackbike, I wouldn't want something with 25 hp.  I wouldn't want anything less than a 450 single.

also worth considering is the kind of tracks you'll be riding...a single on it's own in this kind of condition being wrung out will be a maintenance intensive ordeal if you do alot of track days on tracks that have straights where the general speed exceeds 110MPH...on tight technical tracks where there isn't much past 4th gear on a liter bike for example, a super single might be right at home...otherwise, you'll be wringing the life right outta the machine.....also some track organizations are considering the disparity between machines like Motards/Singles and the regular sport bikes in terms of grouping and so forth due to major differences in closing speeds and braking zones....all about having he right tool for he job...it is just the same with a track bike too...

We saw some running in the USGP about a month ago. They are about the size of a 250 gp bike. I think they have a specific class for them this year. There was word that kits would become available for the conversion but it seems people are just doing the DIY route. I think it would be a blast, go for it.  [thumbsup]

I've been thinking of this as well. Our local track (Pacific Raceways) is pretty tight, but it does have a fairly long straight where I could get up to ~150 indicated on the 848. Everything but the straight would be good on a 450.

On the other hand, Oregon Raceway Park is another close track and I never got the 848 out of 4th gear...and usually was in 2nd or 3rd. Perfect for a 450.

Thunderhill and Miller are also track we go to (I've only been to Miller). I think one of these 450 singles would really suck there.  :-\

I'd love to have one of these for a track bike *but* they're expensive to do right.

My dream version of this bike would be to get the 300 xc (http://www.ktm.com/300-XC.188.20.html) 2 stroke with electric start & convert that. *drool*

I am a member of KTMtalk, it's a pretty cool community (like another one I can think of  ;D).  They have a nice break down of the different thumper motors and the CRF motors are pretty maintanace intensive as they are fairly high strung...jfft.

That's my concern. Might be cheaper to just pick up an R6 or something for the track.


Thanks...good info. I know nothing about the 450 motors...except that i don't want to be rebuilding them all the time!  [cheeky]

Some FHE on flogging 450's:
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37238 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37238)

I'm sure they're fun to ride, but it sure sounds like the maintenance is off the hook.  :-\

Interesting article...thanks.  [thumbsup]

I'm glad I didn't go that route now. I ended up getting an '02 748S for a good deal.  :)

Well, its better looking, better sounding, and a better ride for sure.  [drink]

Maintenance is less too.
Sounds funny saying that about a track ridden 4-valver, but there you go.  :P

wow....good find.

This just in, DMG Trainwreck Part II:

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37248 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37248)

sustained high RPM 4 strokes = money

Especially when they really arn't built to road race (limited oil capacity).

To do one right it's around 10K, no way around it.  Then you've got 10K in a track bike that races against a limited number of others....and you've got to spend a boat load to keep it together. 

Cool idea, just too much $$ to be cost effective (IMHO).  If you want to spend 10K on a track bike buy a late model tz or rs 250.....  [thumbsup]

Honestly I have no idea why one of these 450 supermono's would be at all worth it for an adult.  Why waste 8-10g on one when you could just 1; race a well built tard 2; buy a track bike thats allready set up for 1/4 of the price and spend the rest of the money on track time and tires or 3; buy a blown tz or rz and fit a 450 into it and have a single in a chasis made for racing.  It just seems like such a huge price tag to race a bike that will take a ton of maitance to keep running and who are you going to race against unless you are traveling to events for these bikes; even more $ spent.  As a trackday bike it makes even less sense to me since old race bikes can be bought so cheep.  example; a 1st gen R6 is an awesome bike and they are bullet proof you can get a track one for less than 3g, parts are easy to come by and they are still plenty fast for a trackday; for racing not quite competive enough.  maybe i'm cheep it's just my 2cents [bacon]

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/08/27/cb450r-cafe-racer-kits-convert-honda-crf450r-dirt-bike-to-street-legal-cafe-racer/ (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/08/27/cb450r-cafe-racer-kits-convert-honda-crf450r-dirt-bike-to-street-legal-cafe-racer/)

I know, I know.....holy thread ressurection Batman...but forget about track conversion...how bout a street cafe' racer which you can then track if you want...

everybody always takes my ideas! lol

*tightens foil hat*

Because an R6 is still going to weigh 375 pounds stripped down, and that is a totally different feeling from running a 250 pound bike. The 450 will use a lot less fuel and will be a lot gentler on tires and if you do need to replace motor parts, its a lot cheaper and quicker to replace 1 piston than 4.

 [laugh] Unbelievable...did you even read his entire post? [roll]

You obviously completely missed his point. That is just one example of the many better options there are and he was trying to apply common sense. Go reread the post you are referring to and his option of racing a 450 in Tard trim is a tried and true method. There are guys doing this all over the country and holding their own against SV650s. They didn't spend $10K to convert it either.
His option #2...no brainer. GO pick up an SV650 1st gen. for $3K. Ride the hell out of it since it's already been raced and is set up.
His option #3...Bare Bones has been doing this for many, many years with great success. The Europeans have several roadracing series called, "Supermono" that do exactly this. Again, no brainer. It will cost a fraction of the 450Moto route and you simply can't beat a GP chassis. No dirtbike chassis will ever handle as good as a GP chassis. I know people that have built Supermonos out of Honda RS chassis and I have raced against them. Those things are amazing. I guarantee you that these dirtbike conversions will never ever be that good. I've been following these for a while and the guys that are converting their dirtbikes are having major issues with setting these things up to corner right. The geometry numbers have been exaggerated by Mr. Sands and the fact is, these things are not as simple to convert to roadrace trim as they are being made out to be.

Yes an older R6 is a completely different animal...apples to oranges here. He is saying to get an R6 as a trackday bike. Your tire reference doesn't make much of a difference since the R6 example costs about 7 to 8 thousand less! With the single, you will replace motor parts. With the R6, you may never do anything but change oil and add gas. The guy posting this owns, rides, and races the very bikes that we are talking about,  so I think that he knows a little about what's up. I suppose that you read a few articles about how cool these 450s are and now you are one of the many experts out there....good luck Mr. expert.

Seriously...look at this bike for sale. Here's a Moriwaki MD250H for less than $7K! This is an amazing machine that is kicking major ass on the racetrack everyday.  We're not talking trying to convert a dirtbike that will never handle properly for $10K. We're talking HRC engineering here. GP chassis that is proven on a world level with a 250 single.   http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=226933 (http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=226933)    http://s989.photobucket.com/albums/af15/uswjmc22/ (http://s989.photobucket.com/albums/af15/uswjmc22/)  

And this is not a converted bike. This is not a GP chassis that someone fitted a single into. This is a turnkey track weapon that can be purchased new from Honda, or just buy a used one like this amazing machine in the links.

Good luck in what exactly  ??? Seriously though - don't get so upset  ;D

I don't see where I claimed to be an expert, and the only point I was really trying to get at (poorly I guess) was that I thought it could be a cool project, and some people like to be different. Somebody might have a thumper they were considering getting rid off, but this might give them a chance to recycle it into a cool little track toy. Is it as good as a purpose built track bike, no, but there again they might not be racing, just doing occasional track days having a blast. Besides if we all just did stuff that made sense, ther would be a LOT less cool bikes out there.

So anyway, no offense taken, and if I want advice on track bikes, I'll know to ask your expert above.

 ;D

Oh no, I'm definitely not upset. I just hate seeing people throw away hard earned money and precious time on projects that are a bad idea from the beginning. This concept is a fine idea if you have buckets of extra cash, and don't mind the issues that will come with it. It will probably never handle properly because it's impossible to get the right swingarm angle, and the rake and trail numbers are extremely difficult to get right. These bikes are having major issues with getting set up right.
Even Elena Myers dad is making statements to set the record straight that he (nor Elena), support this concept. I race against 450s in Motard trim on roadrace tracks. I know what these motors are capable of. They can handle a lot if you keep them stock, and don't over rev, and don't downshift hard. I'm not one of the people against this concept because of concerns with the motors because I bang bars with them on the track and I know that they are plenty capable. I'm trying to make people aware that this concept is one huge headache in the making for the average Joe that wants to set one up for trackdays, and especially racing. There are so many better/cheaper options out there!
So, I'm not upset. Your statement was based out of ignorance so I was trying to educate you a little. The person that you quoted was trying to educate people. I'm giving advice as a racer, and as an instructor at a performance riding school that is done by an AMA pro racer. Believe me, I want people to get a good set up. Your learning curve will be dramatically different (better) if you have a bike that is set up properly and is turn key, ready to rock when you need it to. If someone wants a trackday bike, this concept is one of the worst things that you could possibly do for yourself. The only skills that you will be advancing are how to open your wallet, and bang your head a lot. You need to decide if you want to advance your skills, or just do laps on a bike that looks cool. This concept should only be taken on by someone with lots of racing experience, and someone with excellent resources/knowledge.
If you want a trackday bike, and want to improve your riding skills...go buy a used racebike, get the suspension set up for your weight, then put in lots of seat time. Don't take on a project like this. It's the biggest mistake a trackday rider could make. If theses have a few more years of development, then it might make sense. Right now, it's too early. let other people do the dirty work first.
 [beer]