Ducati Monster Forum

Hey All:

It's been a while since I've posted up a ride on the DMF so here goes....

Who's in for a traditional North Bay Loop from Tambuck's to Hwy 1 Stinson Beach to Pt. Reyes (gas), on to the Marshall Store for a lunch bite, Tomales, Chileno Valley Road, Nicasio and on to Lucas Valley Rd. (108 miles).  Thanks to Michael Moore, I just cut and pasted his link from his Sticky (thanks!  [thumbsup])

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=247+Shoreline+Hwy,+Mill+Valley,+CA+94941&daddr=Stinson+Beach,+CA+to%3APoint.+Reyes+Station,+CA+to%3AMarshall,+CA+to%3Atomales,+ca+to%3AChileno+Valley+Rd,+Petaluma,+CA+to%3AHicks+Valley+Rd,+Petaluma,+CA+to%3ANicasio,+CA+to%3ALucas+Valley+Rd,++CA+to%3ASan+Rafael,+CA&mrcr=1&sll=38.114571,-122.722778&sspn=0.427868,0.560989&ie=UTF8&om=0&ll=38.059986,-122.733765&spn=0.428187,0.560989&z=11 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=247+Shoreline+Hwy,+Mill+Valley,+CA+94941&daddr=Stinson+Beach,+CA+to%3APoint.+Reyes+Station,+CA+to%3AMarshall,+CA+to%3Atomales,+ca+to%3AChileno+Valley+Rd,+Petaluma,+CA+to%3AHicks+Valley+Rd,+Petaluma,+CA+to%3ANicasio,+CA+to%3ALucas+Valley+Rd,++CA+to%3ASan+Rafael,+CA&mrcr=1&sll=38.114571,-122.722778&sspn=0.427868,0.560989&ie=UTF8&om=0&ll=38.059986,-122.733765&spn=0.428187,0.560989&z=11)

Meeting Date: Sunday, June 28th
SF Pre-Ride Meeting Place/Time: Velo Rouge at 8:15 am (espresso and cookie)
SF Kickstands Up: 8:40 am
Meeting Point: Starbuck's at Tam Junction (right behind the Arco Gas Station in Mill Valley when you take the Hwy 1 Stinson Beach exit)
Meeting Time: 9:00 am (get coffee, gas, quick pre-ride debrief)
Kickstands Up: 9:15 am
Pt Reyes Gas Station: 10:15 am
Light Lunch: The Marshall Store, Marshall, CA (they have everything from Oysters Rockefeller to sandwiches to a great clam chowder) (http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/handeating.gif)(http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/clam.gif) (http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/ready4.gif)
After-Ride Debriefing Meeting Point in SF: Abbey Tavern, 4100 Geary (between 3rd and 4th Avenues), http://www.abbeytavern-sf.com/ (http://www.abbeytavern-sf.com/)

I threw in a post-ride debrief  [drink] [wine] for those who feel like hanging out a bit more after our ride.  Don't know about you guys but I find it kinda anticlimactic to split off and just go home after a great riding day...

So gear up and let me know if you're in and I'll start a list here.  I'm kind of draconian when it comes to punctuality so I'll be sticking to the above time-table.  I figure people who are waiting for friends to join the ride, etc. can always catch up with us at the next stop.  This ride will be co-shared with the SF Ducati fb group.  Anyone can join the ride, Duc or no Duc, no noobs though please (I have a tough enough time dealing with my own-noob-self)  :P ;) ;D  This will be a spirited ride but we'll split off into another group if we have more than a handful of takers. 

Who's In!
- CharliesAngel
- Enzo696Ducmon
- Jeff W
- Mark G
- Susan H
- Magneto
- greyduc (Lead Group 1)
- Jason M.
- Romeo
- petemg (Lead Group 3)
- Jonah P.
- Jammen (Lead Group 2)
- Rafa
- Orangettes
- Maciek

and the Maybe's!
- Tim C
- Michael B (all the way from MV)
- maillotpois (same as above) (Possible Sweep for a group)
- w7ck7d (depends if bike is back)
- Princess (will know by Friday what the dealio is)
- Pierre P
- John T
- Rain H
- Peter Z
- Alfonso V
- Bjorn K
- Melissa P
- John C

 
Looking forward to another great ride!
-charlie

IN  [beer]  [thumbsup] [moto] !!!

SF DUCATI fb group ??

I'll be working at a pride party that day. Hopefully, you guys should have light traffic with more people heading into the city and all. Have a good ride for me  [moto]

Hey Enzo696ducmon! I created a facebook group called SF Ducati (just search for it on fb - it should come up)
Also, please note that I changed the time to meeting up at 9 am and kickstands up at 9:15 am - this way we avoid some traffic and The Oyster Bar at the Marshall Store opens up at 10 am so I'm still a happy girl!  ;D

Hi Ducnymph! Man, foiled again in meeting up!  ;)
Have an awesome time at Pride!

My husband and I are planning to be there (and RSVP'ed on the FB listing). 

I'll be bringing up the rear.  I'm a (relatively) new rider, but I hope I am not a n00b.   ;)

i will try to make this ride if i get my bike back in time.. [thumbsup]

Sorry, I'm out. My debriefing starts at 11 AM ;)

Hi maillotpois!
Hope that you and your husband can make it!

I can't make this ride (Desmoto have the bike) but I did join the FB group  :)

Count me in. I'm calling Eric, Alfonso, Gabriel... those crazy Italians from Russian Hill.

Haven't riding with you folks for ages.  Unless I have tee time next Sunday otherwise I will see you there.

Dunno my schedule yet for that Sunday but I will keep it in mind. If I *do* go, I'll get to be on a North Bay ride with more than 2 other riders there! Yay!

@w7ck7d - hope you get your bike back!!!

Dude - you better have your address permanently inked onto your arm so that you find your way home!

Sweet!

Awesome! I've heard stories of you guys...

Hope you can make this ride!! ...you can always get another tee time...! (glad that there's another Duc rider that golfs! ;))

We might have 2-3 smaller groups at this point! Hope to see you Sunday :)

Is there going to be a "relaxed" group.  I am still getting over my meeting with a guard rail on Mt. Tam a year ago.  Be honest.  If not, don't worry, I can aways ride at my own pace.
HaloDoc

Sunday depends on the family. If I don't have any Sunday commitments (I'll know by this Friday) then I'll be there. btw, I checked out my Speedometer app while in the car today on the way to work... it's pretty sucky b/c the gps doesn't update fast enough.

Hey HaloDoc!
Not sure if we'll have a dedicated "relaxed group".  But this is going to be a "ride at your own pace" outing.  For each group, we'll wait at the designated Stop signs til the Sweep catches up.  We have a couple of stops already factored in so everyone can catch up or find us there to join us if need be: 1) 15 min. break at Pt. Reyes Gas Station at circa 10:15 am - for everyone that needs gas; and 2) for lunch at the Marshall Store.  We'll probably all get there 10:45'ish (if not a tad sooner).

Hope to see you on the ride!

In. (!)

I can lead a group or sweep if needed; i'm feeling pretty good after doing Bodega to SF on 1 on saturday.

Awesome! Thanks Pete, I've put you down as the Lead for Group 2 as it looks like we have 12 people confirmed right now.  If maillotpois attends, she has offered to be a Sweep for a group.   

This is looking like it's going to be a lot of fun - lots of familiar and new faces!  [thumbsup] [clap]

I wish I could go. I should stop reading this. Prolly be too belligerent that day to still feel the sting, but until then...

Awwww! There'll be other rides! Enjoy your Pinot tasting!!!!  [wine] [wine]

Thanks! I'll selectively post tasteful pics so I won't pull a Michael Phelps.  ;D

Replied on FB, but I'm in for some Oysters.

Thanks for the dual confirmation - I know it can get a bit much!  ;) ;D
Glad that you are coming out! Looks like we've got 13 people confirmed - this is going to be fun! And the weather looks fabulous! God, I love living in San Francisco!  [thumbsup] [moto] ... now we just need an Emoticon eating oysters!  [cheeky]

(http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/handeating.gif)(http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/clam.gif) (http://www.smileyarena.com/emoticons/Emotions/Eating/ready4.gif)

Close enough.  ;)   ;D

MY KNEES FEEL WEAK  :'( . NEED SOME OYSTERS TO MAKE THEM STRONG AGAIN  [thumbsup] [moto] !!! COME ON ARCHIE , JUST DO IT ((( SWOOSH ))) NIKE ! [moto] ;D

@sfarchie: is there some "totempole" story that I don't know about here?

Nah, I'm very modest and don't like to brag.  ;)

ENZO696DUCMON: I would love to go, but I'll be on a liquid diet for the day.  [wine] [wine] [wine] [wine] [wine]

I moved from North bay to SF city lately.  Do you have a rendezvons point in the city that we can take off together?

WHERE IN THE CITY ARE YOU AT ?? I CAN MEET UP WITH YOU . [beer] [moto]

I'm going to be having a Blue Bottle coffee espresso at 8:15 am at Velo Rouge (on Arguello @ McCallister, one block from Fulton).  I'll be jumping on my bike at 8:40 am to cross the GGB. Feel free to join.

I will try to make this trip!

If I can get going early enough, I may stop in and actually get my cookie this time.   [laugh]

Hey Orangettes, I am assuming from your above question that you'll be joining the ride?!  [thumbsup]
I moved you from a Maybe to an In! for the ride!  ;D
By the way, my left pipe is still wobbling...took it to Desmoto and they said there wasn't anything permanent that could fix it...

Sweet! You're on the list as IN!  ;D

Velo Rouge cookies = good!  [thumbsup]

how about 830 at Scuderia West? 

I will be riding (or passing you) on your right side then...   ;D

I THINK IT WILL BE BETTER IF WE MEET UP AT VELO ROUGE WITH CHARLIESANGEL  [moto]BECAUSE IT IS MUCH CLOSER TO GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE AREA . PLUS I MIGHT NEED SOMETHING SWEEET LIKE A COOKIE  [coffee] TO GET ME GOING IN THE MORNING  [beer] . COOL  [thumbsup] ? IF YOU LIKE WE CAN MEET AT SCUDERIA WEST AT 8 A.M. SHARP THEN HEAD TO VELO ROUGE . COOL ??  [popcorn]

You can try....  :-*

No pic, no proof. ;D Very envious, indeed. If there are any oyster virgins, just don't block the pic! [laugh]

Charlies around, I'm sure there'll be pics a plenty.   ;D

Bah! I only blocked the shot two or three times! I had oysters in front of me, whadda you expect? Some kinda self control?  [laugh]

Let's meet up at Velo Rouge at 815, yeah?

Can someone please post the ride meet time/location on where everyone is planning on starting out? I've seen a lot of pre-ride stuff going on and I am not sure where and when I should meet.

I will be riding up from San Ho so I would like to plan my departure time. Sorry for being kinda pregnant dogy about the itinerary :)

Thanks!!!

For some reasons, I thought the ride was today.  I was there all by myself, stupid me.

in!

Thanks for a super fun ride - and thanks to Pete for leading Group 3!  Sorry we had to head out of Marshall so quick, but we had some family commitments.  I know my husband (yellow 1098) had a great time as well.

Sarah

I apologize for not showing up at the debriefing because I got to meet my wify for lunch.  Those oysters were yummy but didn't fill my stomach. 

Also, I feel very sorry for the freak accident today.  I know it would be uneasy to get over what had happened today and I hope they are okay.     

Jensen

Unfortunately, we had 2 riders go down today after our lunch stop at Marshall.  It happened right at the intersection of Chileno Valley Road and Tomales-Petaluma intersection.  Not entirely sure of the details as we weren't there when it happened but both riders were conscious when we got there.  Lorenzo or Enzo696ducmon had to be life-flighted out via helicopter as he was in shock and was unconscious it seems for a period of time. Brian (I'm afraid I don't remember his handle on the DMF) was taken by ambulance - possibly a broken hip/leg/???

I can only hope that they have sustained injuries that will allow them to heal quickly. 

Other than this unfortunate accident, I just want to thank all the riders on the 2nd part of the ride for hanging around, doing what they could with directing traffic, comforting the injured, calling a tow company, collecting cut apart clothes, returning lost cell phones, etc, etc.

With warmest wishes to Brian and Lorenzo,
Charlie

Hope the're ok..

did they run into each other?

The ride was pretty decent (albiet scorching hot inland) except for the unfortunate accident (detailed on previous post). And, as it was mentioned, everyone did what they could to help out (and keep out of the rescue crew's way). My prayers go out to you Lorenzo and Brian! Wishing you both fast recoveries (off the motorbikes).

Emergency services took both of them to Santa Rosa Memorial in case any of you want to know.

p.s. who was the person on the carbon fiber monster again? I don't remember anyone's name!

Damn, sorry to hear that. I hope they'll be OK soon.

Sad to hear i hope they are ok...
Anybody knows what exactly happen?

Whoa... :o  Hope everyone recovers OK.  Crash ticker updated....unfortunately.   :'(

Ouch, get well, guys. :(

I wanted to write a quick note and say thanks to everyone who immediately went into action to help in traffic control, calling for aid, and providing for the overall comfort to Brian and Lorenzo until help arrived.  I hope that they both heal quickly from their injuries and recover fully.  I used an in-camera phone to capture a few images which show the professional care that they were provided.  If Brian and Lorenzo approve I'll post the images.

Wishing the best to Brian and Lorenzo,

Wayne

My prayers for the riders who were injured.  That's horrible and I hope they heal quickly.  MMoore and I headed out  a little early as I was gettting baked out tthere and felt fatigued riding and wanted to come back early for a little beach action.  Heal soon and please update as to the condition of the riders.

Paul

I saw you all roll through Pt Reyes this morning.  I almost stopped in to say "Hi" on my way back through Marshall, but had limited time this morning. 

Sorry to here about the accident.  Hope they both make full recoveries.

Truly sad. Enzo606ducmon seemed so excited about this ride. Hope he and Brian are recovering well. Please keep us posted.

Thanks again CAngel for organzing the ride, it really was a blast!
Still really bummed out about the crash.  If anyone gets any info about Brian/Lorenzo please forward it on. If they're going to be at the hospital for any length of time I'd be up for visiting!

Get well soon guys!

Oh NO!! sorry to hear about the wrecks, hope everyone is alright and gets well soon.

Shitty news about the wrecks...wishing a speedy recovery to Lorenzo and Brian.

Sorry to hear about this, wishing a fast recovery to you both..!

Any word on Brian and Lorenzo?

Just heard back from Pierre who heard that Lorenzo just got discharged from the hospital.  Coastalwater tried to contact them but none of us know their last names and the hospital can't let us know without that information.

Update: Per Lorenzo he has a broken left wrist and some major bruising... he is being released and will seek further treatment at his primary care provider.  He wanted to thank everyone for helping out even though he does not recall the details.  As he recalled one moment he was riding the next he is being carried into a helicopter.  I have not been able to talk with Brian, so if anyone knows his last name let me know.

Thanks, 

What does it look like happened from the sceen of the acident? Ran into a car? each other? two seperate crashes?

PM sent to cstlwtr with Brian's last name and phone numbers.

Update: I have talked with Brian and he said he has a shattered right hip/pelvis and a broken right leg.  He anticipates being transferred today to another medical facility for surgery.  Brian also wanted to thank everyone for helping out.

Thanks,

 :'(

Aw man,   :-\
Would definitely like to know where he's being transfered to!
And Brian, for when you make it on here, I'm still pretty well stocked for medical supplies (crutches, walker, shower chair, etc) please let me know if you need anything!

Crap.
I hope everyone heals quickly.
I hope everyone who helped out is OK mentally too.  Not cool coming up on an accident, I just did that last weekend.

+1

Sorry to hear about the crash. My thoughts are with the injured riders. Charlie, sorry this happened and I hope you're ok too  :(

If anybody finds out what happened please post because I'm really curious to know. Perhaps a lesson we can all learn from.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE  [thumbsup] ! MY FRIEND KATSUH TOLD ME EVERYTHINGN THAT HAPPEND  ( HE WAS RIDING BEHIND ME AND WAS FORTUNATE TO AVOID THE ACCIDENT ) .HE SAID IT HAPPEND VERY QUICK . I AM OK , BROKEN WRIST , SPRAINED LEFT KNEE AND LEFT ANKLE . MY DEEPEST APOLOGIES TO BRIAN FOR THE ACCIDENT AND I PRAY AND HOPE HE GETS 100% QUICK AND FULL RECOVERY . APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE ELSE , TO WHATEVER NEGATIVE FEELINGS I MAY HAVE CAUSED TO ANY . TO THE RESCUE PERSONNEL , THE SANTA ROSA MEMORIAL HOSPITAL WORKERS . AND CHP - THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR PUBLIC SERVICES , I AM GREATFULLY AND APRECIATIVELY THANKFUL . [moto] RIDE ON , LIFE IS TOO SHORT !

Lorenzo - glad to hear the injuries were not worse than they were!

Thought I'd post a couple of images taken just after the emergency crews arrived.  Everyone in the group did a great job of comforting and stabilizing Brian and Lorenzo until they showed up.

Wishing both speedy and full recoveries!

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/3671528179_358115e814_o.jpg)
Ducati Monster Forum Group Ride June 28, 2009:
Chileno Valley Road and Tomales-Petaluma intersection.  Group ride participants Lorenzo and Brian were involved in a two motorcycle accident, help arrived and they received treatment for their injuries.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3671568507_a79f988b62_o.jpg)
Ducati Monster Forum Group Ride June 28, 2009:
Chileno Valley Road and Tomales-Petaluma intersection.  Group ride participants Lorenzo and Brian were involved in a two motorcycle accident, help arrived and they received treatment for their injuries.  Fire department personal prepare Lorenzo for the airlift to the hospital.

Sorry to hear about this accident , WISH BOTH RIDERS GET RECOVER & VERY WELL SOON.

Glad to see you're able to type and still have a positive attitude. [thumbsup] I think everyone can lay off the caps lock...for now.  ;)

For what it's worth, I also have a fractured wrist. But the minute I got my cast off and some rehab, I was back riding. Just keep up the PT when the time comes. Glad to hear it wasn't worst.

:(, I thought you were going to say that you were well stocked on painkillers  ;D, but other supplies are good too  [thumbsup] Get well soon guys.

Man, sorry to read about the accident. I wish you guys a speedy recovery.

I just checked in on this thread hoping to see some pics of what I missed on Sunday. This is not what I expected.  :(  I hope both riders heal up quickly, and when the time comes, I hope they can post a crash analysis to help others possibly avoid a similar experience.

Lorenzo, THANK GOD YOU ARE OKAY!!!
I hope that Brian will post up too, I know that he mentioned that he prefers to lurk but it would be lovely to hear from him!
Please take care an heal up quickly!
Warmest regards,
Charlie

Sorry to hear about the crash ... hope you guys get better real soon.  Post up if you need any help.

Still plenty of those, but I'm assuming he'll be pretty well taken care of in that regard.


My sentiments exactly, post up so we know where to send all the get well cards!   ;D

holy cow !  + 1 came by to see some nice oyster pics and realized there were 2 down riders.  :-\ Zoinkies

Ah geez guys, get better soon. Sorry to hear about the crashes.
Has anyone figured out what happened yet  ???


Just wondering:
Post lunch? hmmmm. Food coma/fatigue have anything to do with it?
mini RedBull fits under seat. I did 300 miles Sunday in +100F and was glad I had it.
What ever it was I hope we can learn from it if you guys will indulge us with details.

Always lots to learn. Have a safe Summer here forward everyone.

Any updates on Brian? :-\

Wow.  We turned back at Marshall due to time constraint.  Hope both are ok and get better soon. :(

Any word?

I know everyone is being all touchy-feely about this incident, but this really sucks, and this is make the beast with two backsing serious.  What the make the beast with two backs happened here?  Is Brian FKA motobee?  If so, then I know Brian.  He's a good guy and an excellent rider.  It pisses me off that he got ass-packed by someone in his group doing something stupid.  Was there really a pre-ride safety talk?  Who is this CAPS LOCK NEWBIE MOTHERmake the beast with two backsER, and why was he following Brian so closely?!?  Fess up, ENZO696DUCMON.  You might be a nice guy, but being coy about what you did marks you as a major douche bag mothermake the beast with two backser in my book.  Do you really understand how your shitheaded behavior affects not only the health and safety of those around you, but how it causes serious problems for everyone who rides???  Do you know how many people have been seriously messed up because of this?  Ever wonder why this board is populated mostly by relatively new riders?  Ever wonder where the good, experienced riders went?  For a long while I wondered, but now I know.  Good riders just want to ride.  They're done putting up with this shit.  I drove past yet another crash near La Honda yesterday.  Same old story.  Newbie joins spirited ride wearing jeans, ends up rolling in the gutter hollering in pain after chasing better riders.  This is make the beast with two backsing retarded, and it's time we addressed it directly and openly.

Seriously, we go through this shit every make the beast with two backsing summer, and the price we pay is too big to pussy foot about it afterward.  To hell with the TOS, when it comes to safety it all has to come out.  Be honest with yourself about your abilities, don't try and keep up, be humble, be aware of your learning curve, listen to and learn from more experienced riders (and be very careful about who you ID as an experienced rider), but most of all, TAKE IT SLOW.  Learning to ride a bike takes about 15 minutes, but learning to ride well takes years and years and years.  I've been riding about six years.  Do you think for an instant I think of myself as a great, experienced rider?  Hell no.  If you just bought your first bike and you're new to this board and don't know anybody, what that make the beast with two backs are you doing on a spirited ride???  Before going out and ruining someone's day again, or far worse, check yourself and use your head.  It's too late for Brian, but do the rest of us a favor and get your shit together.

Update: I wanted to share with everyone that Brian has been transferred to Saint Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco, room #827.  He said he is scheduled for surgery (pinning and plates) tomorrow and expects to be there for 1-2 weeks.  I did tell Brian of the get well and speed recovery wishes from the DMF and Brian wanted me to mention that he has no internet access but to say thank you to everyone. 

Wayne

Enzo
I have to say I completle agree with you on this point, I rarely ever go on group rides but when I do I am always tail end charlie. I am perfectle ok with this because I know I am still learning (I have been riding for 6 years). The one thing I like about thsi group is there is no pressure to keep up and the group will always stop and wait for me.
I have learned alot about how to pace myself from this group and the ownly advice I can give to other rides is to listen to the people around you and ride at your own pace. If your in a group ride and the pace is too fast let the group go, but you should also tell them you are slow before you even start the ride. If the group does not like this then maybe this is a group you should not ride with.

Sorry for the rant everybody but I'm tired of egos.

do you know what happened to call out Enzo and calling him a 'caps lock newbie mothermake the beast with two backser'!? do you know if he ass-packed brian? does it help anyone by calling him out vs having the involved parties deal with it amongst themselves?

Dear Enzo et. al,
The accident that happened during this ride and the pain and suffering that the injured have had to endure is top-of-mind for many who have read this thread.  I believe it is called empathy and compassion.

With all due respect Evan - were you at this ride and did you see what happened?  That's all I'm going to say about that.

I organized this ride and realized that it was going to be a larger group ride.  Therefore, I had a few volunteers agree to lead and sweep - they did an awesome job!  Greyduc who I asked to lead (since I know I am not a skilled enough "Lead" yet), gave a 5 minute pre-ride safety talk at Tambucks and both Brian and Enzo696ducman attended the talk.  I have gone over and over in my head whether or not there could have been more that I could have said/done.  I know that I can speak on behalf of Greyduc as he shares my sentiment. 

I joined the DMF for the camaraderie and love of riding.  I have also attended DMF group rides and have learned a great deal from them.  In fact, ironically, I nearly crashed on my first DMF ride organized by Desmoquattro but I was extremely lucky and got off with just a bent clutch and 1/2 peeled off boot - it was because I was a noobie and I was trying to keep up.... that was my big lesson learned.  Now I understand when the guys explained to me that they'd rather wait 5 minutes at the Stop sign rather than waiting the whole day for the ambulance and the tow truck guy...

Thing is with riding, you can only continue the learning process the more you ride.  I organized this ride because I wanted to give back to the DMF and do a group ride so that others could continue to learn, just as I am continuously learning - and the only way to do it is to ride with others.  However, this whole thing and some of the comments I have heard people say about this ride have really left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I don't believe that fowl language and blaming will help.  My continued hope that Brian will pull through this trying time - having just shared this process with a good friend, I fully empathize and send my warmest regards.  What I will do is organize a group outing to go visit Brian so look out for that thread. 

- stephenie (charlie)

 

I would agree with Charlie on this - as far as I can tell (this is speculation and is dangerous to draw conclusions from anything but statements from witnesses who actually watched the whole accident unfold)... apparently there was a side road that everyone missed that was a 90 degree R-hand turn right after a crest in a hill about 150 -200 yds or so. Cresting over the hill at a fairly fast pace, with another vehicle or person in front at the intersection for anyone would be the makings of any accident.

The best advice to everyone... know the route - obviously a lot of people missed the cut off since 1/2 the group blew right past it. Learn from what happened so it won't happen again. We all are at fault for treating public roads as a race track if we end up breaking the law by traveling faster than the posted speed limit.  We all know the risks inherent in riding motorcycles and that is something we agree to every time we turn the key to start our rides and head out to enjoy the California back roads. You can minimize this risk by riding solely on race tracks during track days. It's a CHOICE we have. I'm grateful we have such an opportunity to ride where we want in America.

   Enzo, I understand the anger, I've been a bit upset by this whole thing for the last couple days... but what it comes down to is no one actually saw what happened. The fault could totally be on one person, the other, or possibly both.  That whole "innocent until proven guilty" does come into play here.  Unless someone who saw the accident was to come forward and say without a doubt that "This is what happened" it's not really anyone's place who was on the ride (or who read about it after the fact) to start letting loose potentially untrue and damaging statements on the net. 

  Just take to heart what you already know; don't do big group rides with lots of unknowns if you want to limit your personal exposure to things like this.  There are more then enough ways for us to go down as is, large group rides just seem to up that risk exponentially at times.

 

Be as diplomatic and fair as you want, but Brian is still in the hospital, and he shouldn't be, no matter the excuse.  Are we really more concerned about being nice to ENZO696DUCMON than the well being of everyone he and riders like him encounter?!?  If so, then we have bigger problems than hurt ego's.

Stephanie, Princess, sidm, et al, the MOB was a great place, but this isn't a make the beast with two backsing tea party.  Yeah, it's neat to make friends, but it really sucks to send them to the hospital, too.  Is that not painfully obvious?  If you can walk away after riders in your group were air lifted with this attitude, then you know why I won't touch any of your rides with ten foot pole.

So let's hear it from the horse's mouth for those of you who need first hand eye witness accounts to learn something from an incident some of us have seen over and over and over again.  Cut the bullshit, lay it out, and I'll be happy to eat crow pie if there is some extraordinary reason why one rider hit another on a group ride.  It better be make the beast with two backsing spectacular, too, because this should never, ever happen, no matter what.

With no story being told, we are left to our imaginations for answers.  Knowing the road there, the most likely (almost inescapable) conclusion is the scenario Enzo detailed.  

Here is the street view leading to the crash spot... (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=38.255066,-122.820625&spn=0,359.97262&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.25511,-122.820198&panoid=6r0XzcX3iir7xsMBuDTeMw&cbp=12,85.41,,0,5)  

Stephenie - That would be great! I'm sure Brian would like that.  I'll look forward to seeing the thread about visiting him.

Wayne

It is nice to see that you are choosing to stay away rather than join in and help create a community.

This isn't about you, Stephanie.  From what I can tell, you appeared to set up a ride with all the best intentions and common safety standards in place.  The problem is that you got some newbies riding over their heads, and nobody reminded them that it was not a newbie friendly ride.  Happens all the time, but it's senseless that it happens at all. 

When I was a newbie, there were some serious pre-ride talks, and sometimes I thought the organizers were being dicks, but I followed the rules, remembered them, and managed to avoid putting anyone on Life Flight.  Most of those organizers aren't around anymore, so there isn't anyone standing up to be the bad guy, offering the structure that these rides really need.  We've gotten soft, and we aren't taking these rides seriously enough.  How many broken backs and crushed pelvises do we need around here before we have a serious conversation? 

You may not think that's building community, Stephanie, but my hope is this brings the right kind of attention to what we're doing here.  If anyone is willing to sack up and really address this, let's do it.  The forum is social, and we can make friends by being pleasant all we want, but our rides are for real, and I don't think we can compromise safety in the name of inclusiveness and tact anymore.

  This is part of the issue, no one actually has a story as none of us saw it.  Even the people on the ride would just be using our imaginations and coming to conclusion that may be best not shared on a public forum. It's not being soft or being concerned about anyone's ego or well being.  For me it's waiting for an official accident report to either confirm or deny what I suspect.

   

Just to point out, that there was a warning on the ride invite that this would be a spirited, non-beginner friendly ride, and as far as I know, everyone who attended had been riding for at least a year plus.


 

I feel that the safety speech before the ride was solid, especially considering the "spirited ride disclaimer", touch on all the important aspects that may have contributed to the accident.


Now honestly, this is bit of a low blow.  Do you have any idea how concerned we all were/still are?


I totally agree we need to step up and make sure we weed out every potentially dangerous newbie who wanders our way, every person that really needs to hear that full 10 minute barage of a safety speech, every person who has the potential to take out someone we consider a friend...

Oh wait, everytime we go out by ourselves or with our best friends there's the chance of an accident.
Oh wait, I and everyone else here was that newbie, who had the potential to cause a crash and apparently shouldn't be part of the group
Oh wait, everyone of the "old respected group" (no offense, I love you all ;) ) has had some kind of crash even if it was just after giving a safety speech.

It's really not our place to start deciding on sight who's allowed to join "The Mob" and who isn't.... Do we really want to make that elitist ducati attitude sterotype a true thing?

Just don't show up for the bigger group rides, I know that this is the decision I've come to after this last ride.  Despite my feelings that this last ride was a well run event.

Enzo, I love you man, and I am honestly very upset by the crash as well (it's rough seeing someone have to go a through a similar injury to what I had because someone else "may" have made a mistake) but now is not the time to start tearing into people and looking for blame.  Show Brian your support, the last thing I can see him wanting right now is a group of us talking about nothing but going for blood. 

Accidents do happen, and are unfortunately going to continue in the future. Yes, we should be striving to be safer. We should have a pre-scripted safety speech that's read before every ride. We shouldn't hesitate to send someone home because they may be too inexperienced.  There should be gear requirements, bike maintenance requirements, bike brand requirements (if you want to go that far), all of which will get you sent home.  But... it's never 100% and we really should leave the blame game to the PD and the lawyers if needed.

Evan - Stephenie was kind, but you are a complete prick. Lorenzo had the humility and respect for the people involved, the folks that cared for him and Brian, and for the riders here to post an apology and his thanks. He does not deserve to suffer a reaming from some anonymous twat who was not even present, and be made to think he should fellate your flaccid experience in public. Don't you dare think this is an opportunity to get your 72 months of riding validated you maggot.  You are not one bit a veteran, and you certainly are not a role model.  You're a predictable, boring asshole with a keyboard and a motorcycle.

You have no reason to assume Lorenzo is an inexperienced rider.  The guy has had bikes for years.  Brian's race bike had no turn signals and a tiny, malfunctioning taillamp hidden in the bodywork.  It was a great bike and I forgive him for wanting to get it out on the road, but it was a major lapse in judgment.  I like both these guys, and have no reason to blame either.  

I choose not to ride around anyone who I don't think understands and is monitoring their limits, and why don't you do the same.  You don't like them, keep your distance.  No one wants to hear follow-on, masturbatory sermons.  It's sanctimonious almost-rans like you who I am most afraid of and disgusted by. You're just good enough to make me think you're not a fool.  I am not surprised you don't know where all the "real riders" quietly went -- they want nothing to do with you.

Ib4tl!  ;D

<mod hat on>

Enzo and Caferacer? _Please_ take a few deep breaths...

I understand this is a _seriously_ deep felt and emotional discussion, and rightly so, but if it has to take place full of personal abuse, it'll have to stop.

I'm gonna overlook those existing posts (and leave them in place for now), but I'd appreciate it if you'd both at least apologise for the language, even if you're going to remain strongly in disagreement over the details and consequences.

Stop the personal abuse, but please continue the argument _respectfully_. It _is_ important to discuss what the expectations and responsibilities should be when you're organising or participating in group rides - but while speculations and opinions are useful, personal attacks are not (and are not permitted on the forum either.)

</mod hat>

Carry on.

big (and commiserations and best wishes to those involved...)

I'll offer my opinion for what it's worth. I participated in the first half of the ride and rode with greyduc and Brian in the first group out. I heard the safety talk, and I think it was fine. Greyduc led our group at what I would consider a reasonable pace for experienced riders.

The unknown for me is the experience level of the Lorenzo. I've known Brian for a few years, not well, but we've worked the Ducati hospitality tent at GP and other races, and been on a couple of rides together, and I was following him in the morning section. He's a good and competent rider and I wasn't aware of any problems with his brake light. I gave him a good 2 second gap most of the time, and I never saw him do anything unpredictable or sketchy.  I don't know Lorenzo and have not ridden with him so cannot pass judgement on his skill.

I do know the road well, and the right turn happens shortly after a blind rise. For this reason, when I'm leading, I turn on my blinkers well before the hill, and slow gradually to let people know there's a turn coming. Otherwise it's easy to miss. 

On the face of it, it would appear Lorenzo either failed to brake properly and/or target fixated on Brian and hit him. That's a guess, but it seems to be the probably scenario. Most likely the pace was too fast and people were unfamiliar with the route.  Some people really like to hit big speeds on those roads, but I have seen too many tractors pulling out, cows in the road, and other, similar things to speed through that area. Plus it is the front yard of the people who live along those roads and is, I feel, disrespectful as well as dangerous.  There are plenty of empty sections that are parkland to get the adrenaline going; populated areas just aren't the best choices.

So what could we learn going forward? Here are some things that come to mind:

1) Make sure you know the skill levels of your riders. If you don't know, ask.

2) Break out groups by skill level

3) If someone is struggling in a group, the sweep should politely but firmly suggest they move to a different group. I've done this, and while it doesn't win you any popularity contests, the rider will hopefully understand at some future point.

4) Make sure people know the route. If you learn that riders are from out of the area, slow it down further. The ride leaders and sweeps especially should be familiar with the route, and not just from an "I have a GPS" perspective. On that Marin loop there are a number of corners that are weird, have holes, typically are covered in gravel, etc. that you want to slow down for.  You have to, as a ride leader, overcompensate for these things by slowing down more than you normally would, and telegraph their presence as best you can.

5) Make sure everyone in the group understands you'll be waiting for them so they aren't worried about getting left behind or getting lost.

6) And finally, as a participant, as we always say, ride within your limits, give the guy in front a two second lead, and if you want to really ride fast, go for a ride on  your own. Group rides are about fun, learning from better riders, and hanging out with people you like. They're not about proving you're Rossi.

You're right Jammen, crashes can and do happen to anybody.  We've all seen MB's crash ticker, but hitting another rider is inexcusable, and even worse is trying to justify it afterward.  I haven't been going on the bigger rides for this very reason, and I'd like to see fewer of these incidents before joining one again.  That's not going to happen if we fail to address this directly.

Maybe we'll hear from those involved and get some crazy explanation that makes it all okay, but so far confusion about the route and something about tail lights doesn't come close to explaining why one rider was close enough to hit another rider.  If things went the way they were supposed to, Brian should have been able to do cartwheels while riding Wonderwoman's invisible motorcycle without anyone touching him.



Big, I appreciate your input.  I also understand your point of view and your role as a moderator.  Do what you have to.  I'm not offended by caferacer, and I need no apology from him/her if that is what you were suggesting.  His rant is justified as far as I'm concerned, even if the content of his post is uninformed.

In return, I'll apologize to ENZO696DUCMON if he is willing to tell us what happened and allow us to learn from this tragedy.  If he is really the stand up guy his friends claim he is, we shouldn't have a problem.  Like I said, I'll gladly eat crow pie for this if I'm wrong, and nothing would make me happier if safer rides come out of all this. 

<mod hat>

Don't fan the flames, Jim.

</mod hat>

First off -- best wishes to speedy recoveries for the riders.

A few thoughts on this thread:
Everyone is upset this happened and is hoping for the best for these riders during a difficult time.  We're all on the same page here.

It seems there is a disconnect is "what do we want to take away from what has happened?"  Everyone is also on the same page that we'd like to avoid having another accident on a group ride in the future.  I hope everyone can pause and reflect on what can be done to help reduce the risk of crashes in future group rides.  There is inherent risk in what we do, but there are so many things within our control that can be done to reduce (not eliminate) the risks.  This is not a finger-pointing exercise, but it does require us to revisit what has worked and what has not worked in the past.  There have been a lot of suggestions in this thread and others:

-minimum following distances
-reviewing ride routes so folks know where turns are (organizer always brings print-outs?)
-enforcing slower pace for new riders to the group or new riders to the route
-early signalling for turns
others..

Let's take the necessary precautions, and add some additional precautions for good measure, and try to enjoy the wonderful roads in this area with each other's company.   [moto]

Tigre

Does anyone have the full hospital address, room number etc for Brian?
(still in Saint Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco, room #827?)

Or Brian, if you're reading this...

We (the mods) would like to try and get a care package out to you.

Brian is scheduled for surgery today and I don't know if he'll have the same room afterwards.  To date he has no internet access but said that he will post when he does.  Brian's contact information is as follows:

Brian Brown
c/o St. Mary's Medical Center
450 Stanyan St
San Francisco, CA 94117
(415) 668-1000

Wow.  I was sorry to have to leave the ride at Marshall, but I am not sorry to have missed the crash.  I wish both injured riders all the best and hope they (and their bikes) recover and are back on the road soon.

Sarah

PM'ed

Since we're asking "what can we learn from this", first we have to acknowledge what typically happens on these rides. I was on this ride - (on the red 1098S). I showed up to Tambucks just in time to infiltrate the second group. I wasn't there for the pre-ride brief. (Potential issue #1 - late rider still participates).

After a brief stop at the Pt Reyes Gas Station, I abandoned the second group and joined the first group. I thought the second group was a tad slow --- and I'm a noob, been riding about a year/ 3rd bike / 12000 miles in total. (Potential Issue #2 - Overconfident Noob thinks he's too fast for anything but the first group).  (Potential Issue #3 - Same Noob is riding the fastest production bike ever made).

On past rides (mostly on BARF), other riders have solicited advice from me as though I must be a veteran. (Potential issue #4 - people assume a rider is experienced based on the bike he/she is riding).

I followed several riders too closely. At least, too close to brake if something unexpected happened. (Potential issue #5 - tailgating)

In both groups I saw several riders, including myself, intentionally bust double-yellows. I then watched riders behind me do the same thing. (Potential Issue #6 - busting double-yellows).

For some reason, we all lose our brains in group rides. Its just human nature. Mob mentality. You find yourself crossing double-yellows, running yellow lights, increasing speed. In short, you do things on group rides that you normally don't do by yourself. Perhaps its showing off, or not wanting to be a wuss, or trying to not get left behind, or not being the "slow guy in front ruining the ride". Whatever it is, we have to recognize it. (Potential Issue #7 - Mob Mentality: None of us are as dumb as all of us)

Among other things, I'm a father of one (with another one on the way) and a pilot - I think of myself as "special" and somehow more awesome than most, yet I can quickly list at least 7 offenses that I participated in, and I was only on the ride thru lunch.

I should just prowl and be selective about my postings so that people think I'm experienced and all-around awesome. And I'm sure somebody is thinking "I won't ride with that guy anymore" or  same something ridiculous like "your stupidity is frightening".  Whatever. I figured I'd open the table to an honest - non-accusatory and truly analytical discussion about how to tweak group rides to tone down some of these offenses. To the one tool who absolutely has to post and blast me for my two-wheeled stupidity and tell us all how smart he is (and probably had a bad highschool experience): You are awesome! You are the Man! [bow_down] Feel better?

To everyone else: Please post and direct your ideas to the group, not me, since I'm really not interested in actual advice (Potential Issue #8).
 
[popcorn]

- Magneto

^^^^ Good "confessional"

From what I've seen on group rides, the biggest issues are:

Following too closely. Unless the speeds are relatively low I try and maintain the 2 second rule. That sort of following distance also helps with the "focus on the road, not the rider in front of you" problem.

Triple Digit speeds. Maybe I'm in the minority, but on the boring straight sections of road I see no reason to blast into the 90s and 100s. Other folks may disagree, and like doing this, but I'm not one of them. But, I'd rather get a speeding ticket for 15 over the limit in some corner than 40 over in a straight. This can be a problem if you're in the "fast" group, since it'll further spread the group out. I've solved this by making sure I ride sweep. But In general I like the idea of setting a upper speed limit for the group.

Group size. Passing over the double yellow is not a big deal when the group size is small. With 5 riders it doesn't take long to get past a slow car. With 10 it's a recipe for really spreading out a group. Plus large groups lead to spread out groups, route problems, lost riders.

In general these are reasons I've avoided group rides that don't have folks at the same level as me and aren't any bigger than 6 or so.

And completely off topic, Magneto: How do you manage to swing flying and a 1098s? I've got two kids and I haven't flown or upgraded my bike in about 5 years  ;D

Wow, I thought I was at BARF!  [roll]

Seems to me the guy apologized already, but perhaps in an effort to sound upbeat, he didn't sound remorseful enough.  But I do not know what the flaming will accomplish now.

If he did in fact take out another rider, was that inexcusable?  Sure.  But then, does that make crashes that don't involve anyone but the rider excusable?  I mean why is there a crash ticker other than to acknowledge that people crash, experienced and inexperienced riders alike?  I personally disdain the BS from those self-promoting riders that always claim they ride within their limits and chastise those that don't.  Again, experienced riders here have crashes aplenty, proving only that they too found out their limits the hard way.  And in reality, the fact that someone hasn't crashed doesn't automatically mean they are riding within their limits, or even safely for that matter.

I personally will NEVER do another group ride.  I am very comfortable cruising around like the old fart that I am, and at a speed true to my name, riding slower than...  And I also know from experience I ride safer when I am not trying to keep up with a group.  And let me say out loud that no matter how much you emphasize it is a newbie ride, and to go at your own pace, there is ALWAYS pressure to keep up, and embarrassment about holding everyone up (been there, done that, and crashed).  So for me, not riding in a group is safer for me, and safer for you.   ;D

Anyway, not saying that accidents are acceptable, but they are understandable.  What isn't is the flaming afterwards. 

Best wishes to Brian, heal quick and heal strong.

It's been a long time since we've ridden together but I'm sure we'll see each other again out on the road quicker then you'd imagine.

I'd think it would be advisable for any involved parties and/or witnesses not to comment on a public forum while there is a police report and/or insurance settlement still pending.

Just saying....

Guys, a few thoughts:

1) I completely understand Enzo's sentiment. He, like many of us, have seen more than our fair share of carnage. Those of us who know him understand that he's a very mellow guy, and that when he posts like this, something's really upsetting him. Sure, it's impossible to weed out all the squids on our group rides, and many of us have had plenty of oh-shit moments. But many of us are here because this isn't BARF, and there are plenty of experienced and sensible riders around who in the past have taken on lead/sweep/safety duties and kept mahy people safe. Enzo may not have been tactful, but he has a point. I say cut him some slack.

2) I, like many others, was guilty of trying to keep the torrid pace of the lead group when I first started riding with the MOB. No matter how much I heard the "ride your own pace" advice, I used to think of it as a badge of honor to keep tigre, spidey, MM, and the other fast guys in sight. At some point, probably after doing my first track day, that bit of ego went out the window. For some people, a crash like this is what it takes. For others, a gentle reminder may be enough. If someone's riding like an asshat or doesn't belong in the fast group, chat him/her up and say something.

3) In spite of all the above nuance, there's never an excuse for going up someone's tailpipe. That's pretty cut and dried. Turn signals, brake lights, hand signals, etc are conveniences. At the end of the day, you're responsible for not hitting what's in front of you.

That said, speedy recovery to both. There will be plenty of time to dissect this over beers. Let's let the emotions subside for now.

Along your train of thought DQ.
I have learned from your experiences. The first group ride I went on was with you and Itsasickness, anyone who knows these two knows they ride fast, before we went out you said 'ride your own pace'. I took that to heart and I was so slow compared to the two of you that Itsasickness had time to have smoke while you guys waited for me. But I never felt any pressure to keep up. In fact you both looked genuinely happen to see a smile on my face.
If I never said it, THANK YOU for that.

This is how a group ride should go. Lets all strive to make all newcomers feel the same.

Thanks, Noel. I remember that ride. I prefaced the safety briefing with my usual warning:
Remember: I'm an idiot. Just because I do something doesn't mean you should.
Glad you took that to heart. Being a pilot, you know better than most not to let the machine get ahead of you. Unfortunately, not everyone knows or understands that.

He was smoking to calm himself down after trying to keep up with my idiotic pace that day ;D

Wanted to let everyone know that Halodoc and I visited Brian today at Saint Mary's, Halodoc presented Brian with a brand new Ducati 1098 that he purchased at Hattar just for him.  Granted it's only about 1/12 scale but Brian did seem to get a kick out of it.  Brian looked like he is doing well and asked me to write and say thank you to everyone for stopping by to visit and for everyone's concern and best wishes.

Regards, 

Wayne (cstlwtr) and I had a great ride down to visit Brian as he mentioned in his e-mail.  For all of you medical types, Brian fell onto his right side impacting the head of the femur into his right acetabulum fracturing the acetabulum as well as the fibula on his right leg.  He underwent surgery at Saint Mary's by some very good orthopaedic surgeons (who I know very well) and fixed the entire acetabulum from inside the pelvis.  When Wayne and I were visiting him I was very surprised to see that he can already flex his hip up to his chest. For those of you who may not be familiar with this injury to be able to do that within two weeks of the surgery is pretty darn good.  Unfortunately, he won't be walking for about three months.  But by the looks of things, I would say he will recover to ride with us again, probably in my group though . . . .  Brian will most likely be transferred to a rehab facility sometime soon, although he doesn't know which one.  I'll try to find out and let everyone know. 
Solon

Ow ow ow. I had assumed he'd broken the head of the femur.

But you're right, that's amazing progress in 2 weeks.  The 3 months part sucks though.  I sure hope he has great insurance.

Thanks for the report.  Good to hear that his recovery seems to be progressing "quickly".  Going to try to get in to see him soon.   [thumbsup]

All my wishing and hoping  , he will  be recovering soon & strong .
Danny

Ditto! [thumbsup] I still haven't found a newbie group slow enough for me. I'm far more relaxed riding either solo or with one other person. I hate feeling like I'm holding everyone up, even though I'm not.

You should come out with me sometime...I'm very good at newbie-friendly rides. :)

I too usually avoid group rides (especially large ones) on the moto or the bicycle, I'd rather just go by myself or with a couple of people I know and feel comfortable with.

I thought some of you might like to see that sometimes it goes down even worse:

(http://www.ksrc-au.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=21761&sid=227bfeec44877d5e226284ad9ca99f68)

http://www.ksrc-au.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20485&hilit=putty+bbq (http://www.ksrc-au.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20485&hilit=putty+bbq)

A broken leg was the worst injury there... But that photo gets to me everytime I see it...

big

Whoa. That's the group ride from hell. The write up is as bad as the picture.

Umm wow... The thread is a good read..

If someone showed me a front wheel like that on a group ride I would give them a black eye at the next stop. Then again, I would have waved the dude past long before this happened.

That is actually a great case study in how a piling on of different factors adds up to a nasty wreck. These guys have probably been riding regularly with most of these factors present, but throw one extra on the pile (the unusual/unfamiliar riding order of the bikes) and bam.. Alarms should be going off in our heads as we see these risk factors piling up AND we should have the sense to do something about it.

Ouch! On first glance, I thought that was just MrIncredible's commute.

Im starting to think Kawais are just magnets to get hit by another bike. I got hit wile riding a Kawai, by another Kawai. Spidey got hit while on a kawi, Brian while on a kawai, Bigians story, kawais.

I think you may be onto something there....

F'n Buells.   >:(

Wow, I am finally home. While the doctors and nurses at St. Mary's hospital were great, it is a welcome relief to get out of there.

I still have a long way to go, as I cannot put any load through my reconstructed hip socket for 12 weeks, and there is damage to my right ankle tendons, right calf muscle and a broken right fibula. Hopefully with some good physical therapy, everything will work as well as it did before the accident.

I want to thank everyone for their concern and especially those who helped out at the accident scene and visited me in the hospital. You don't realize how many friends that you have until something like this happens.

Thanks again!
Brian

Glad you're home OK. PT is a pregnant dog, but they know what they're doing. Heal up fast!

Brian, Glad to hear you're back home and online.. The PT will be a chore but you'll do well I'm sure.

Speedy recovery,

Wayne 

Heal up quick, guy.  Say, you mind PM'ing me your address?  Maybe we can bring over a cassarole or help out a little around the house, eh?   :)

-Heather

That's a great plan Heather. If he ties your casserole to his hip and drags it around, it'll increase his strength in no time!  :P

How 'bout we tie several cassaroles to your neck via a noose and throw them off a tall balcony, ya ass...   [cheeky]

Glad you're on the mend man/ Take that PT very very seriously.  [thumbsup]