Ducati Monster Forum

When / where did this technique begin? They didn't do it in the old days, and the bikes (tanks / seats) seem to have evolved to accommodate it. Along the way someone came up with the idea. Just wonderin'. TT

Hmmm - occurs to me that racing sidecar "passengers" (hardly seems an appropriate job title given the work they do) have been doing it for a long time. Maybe the technique migrated to two wheelers?   

The May issue of BIKE (its British, and so much better written than anything from the states that its embarrassing) had an article about "30 years of knee-down."


They're often called "monkeys," for obvious reasons.  [thumbsup] Although, if you want to go further back in origins, sailors have been doing the same thing for muuuuuch longer than bikes have.

(http://www.teachsailing.net/resources/I20NAsC.jpg)

Kenny Roberts was the first one to do it in Grand Prix (now MotoGP) motorcycle racing in 1978 when he was racing for Yamaha.  He won the championship the first year he raced Grand Prix also taking the title in 1979 and 1980.

I can't say if Roberts was the first one to do it on a roadracing bike, though.

I thought it was Paul Smart that started it because he was running out of clearance.

Not sure about the evolution but this is what it's led to. [bow_down] [bow_down]

(http://resources.motogp.com//files/images/xy/2009/MotoGP/FP2/n500048_ROSSILORENZO01.preview.jpg)

There was a vid here on the forum sometime last year talking about the guy who "invented" the knee down style, Roberts sounds familiar.  Like bob said, he wanted to get that little bit of rubber out of his tires so he chucked his body way off and pushed the bike back up.  The first "knee pucks" was him wrapping his knees in tape to make them slide and/or not tear up his leathers. 

IMHO it arose as rear tyres got wider.

Skinny tyre bikes don't need it so much. In Hailwood's heyday, a four-inch (110mm) rear tyre was a biggie.

With a big rear tyre such as a 180, the contact patch migrates inward more from the bike's centre line as you lean.

That tends to stand the bike up, especially noticeable when you hit bumps or dips in the road.

By getting your weight inboard, upward pressure from the migrated contact patch is kept in line with the combined centre of mass of bike and rider.

That means the bike behaves more neutrally in a turn - less need to countersteer to hold a line. Provided you hold the bike in line with your outside knee.

Edit: You can see all this happening in the Rossi shot two posts above.

They're hanging off the wrong way.  ;)

Roberts may have been one of the first to put the knee down, but actually rolling off to the inside of the bike was first "popularized" by Agostini.

The knee down seems to be coming full circle now with guys including Rossi throwing the whole leg off approching a turn almost like setting up to drag a foot (trail braking?) dirt track and supermoto riders do. Now the freestyle riders are are just making it up as they go.
Love evolution hate change.

Back in the day before radial tires, things were a bit different on motorbikes.  Tire construction has played a big part in the evolution of hanging off as well as better suspension over the decades.  Old bike tires, being super skinny and hard as rocks, didn't really have any side grip to speak of, so the racing was more of a point and shoot mentality with minimal lean angles and no reason to hang off.

As tires have evolved and suspension has become so advanced, hanging off the bike has been a natural evolution to increase speed and stability in the corners.  As said above, some of the first sliders were duct tape to the knees.

I've been watching that this season. I was floored when I saw it the first time. Now I've really grown to like it.

Rossi says he started that, he wants money for everyone who does it now  [laugh]

Its weird how they do it though. Beginning to middle of hard breaking at the end of the straight. And there foots back on the pegs before they tip in, and never IN the turn... So its not like MX/SMC riders use it for saves or lbs. distribution... It never touches the ground so i could only guess they throw the foot out to increase aero. drag? maybe its to confuse the riders behind them, make em think the rider in front is gonna crash or get off?? Make them wonder why hes got his foot out and miss their turn points?

Pretty long discussion of the foot thing here:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25714.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25714.0)

I remember seeing an interview with Barry Sheene where he claimed to be the first guy "knee down".

I've always thought it was Jarno Saarinen who deserved credit for developing this riding style, though.  He was a Finn who came from an ice racing background, and was racing hung-off, knee out, in the late '60s.  He died in an accident involving fourteen riders in 1971. 

"Knee out" riding was common during the '30s and '40s, and this was the style Giacomo Agostini emulated.  Nobody hung meat off the seat until Jarno, and nobody even approaced "knee down" until tires and chassis improved during the '60s and early '70s.  Both Sheene and Roberts wrapped their knees in cloth and tape to avoid rubbing through their leathers until wooden sliders were first attached to leathers in the mid '70s.