for those who haven't been following the drama, the race in February (maybe) is going to be interesting. Here's the defender being launched today:
(http://i31.tinypic.com/eittw9.jpg)
and here's the challenger:
(http://i30.tinypic.com/dmvf3t.jpg)
the racing may not be close, but these giant beasts will be faaaaast.
hahaha......i remember watching the cup races waaaaay back in the mid 80's, when the sailboats still looked like sailboats.
last race i saw (live) was the year of the winged keel. its been an engineers/inventors sport ever since.
Those things are fast. [evil]
wow, they don't look like sailboats anymore, do they?
I grew up sailing with my dad on a little holder 14 and a butterfly, so naturally after a day on the lake we'd watch sailing.
I remember watching Dennis Connor in the America's Cup when he piloted Stars and Stripes.
currently that boat is based in Hilton Head Island, SC as a sunset cruise type of business venture.
Just thinking of what that boat looks like verse that damned oracle boat above (note: not knocking the boat, just the sponsor....can you tell I am a happy oracle user?).
How fast will that sucker cruise at? How many crew members?
When did they start putting training wheels on cup boats? [evil] (http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/smileys/s9.gif)
Dude, those things are HUGE!!!!
America's Cup 2009: Open Semi Final - Patrick Sheridan vs Mike Tillman 1st half part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDce41mJYWk#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
When I was a kid I remember spending hours looking over the cut-away of Connor's "Stars & Stripes" that Popular Mechanics had in one of their issues. I thought it was really cool how everything was laid out. I'm not sure I like these new boats as well aesthetically, but they are fascinating machines. Even 25 years later, I bet I could spend quite a bit of time looking at, and comparing the 2 cut-aways.
Quote from: kopfjager on July 08, 2009, 10:03:28 AM
America's Cup 2009: Open Semi Final - Patrick Sheridan vs Mike Tillman 1st half part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDce41mJYWk#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
What the heck kinda "sport" is that?
Quote from: Statler on July 08, 2009, 09:14:35 AM
for those who haven't been following the drama, the race in February (maybe) is going to be interesting. Here's the defender being launched today:
(http://i31.tinypic.com/eittw9.jpg)
and here's the challenger:
(http://i30.tinypic.com/dmvf3t.jpg)
the racing may not be close, but these giant beasts will be faaaaast.
Where do the people sit... ???
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 08, 2009, 10:56:20 AM
Where do the people sit... ???
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/bmw20oracle20multi.jpg)
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/bmworacle.jpg)
That looks safe.
Not much of a trampoline like on the old hobie cats
Interesting daggerboards on that BMW-Oracle boat.
Any reasoning given for the inverted bows on the hulls? ???
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 08, 2009, 11:55:31 AM
That looks safe.
Not much of a trampoline like on the old hobie cats
I'm not sure you're seeing that right? ???
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/Bmworacle2.jpg)
For some reason, only the first picture showed up and I couldn't tell.
Then I clicked back in here and saw the second picture and you can clearly see the netting.
Makes a hell of a lot more sense now.
[thumbsup]
When did they start using multihulls? Or is this the first time?
Wow... I so want to go for a ride!
Quote from: Ducaholic on July 08, 2009, 12:52:06 PM
When did they start using multihulls? Or is this the first time?
My guess is that this is the first trimaran.
First cat was Stars & Stripes.
Quote from: Speeddog on July 08, 2009, 12:00:53 PM
Interesting daggerboards on that BMW-Oracle boat.
What do you find interesting?
And check out the specs, I compared the sail area to my house. Holy crap. :)
BMW Oracle Racing 90 Specs
LOA: 100 feet
LWL: 90 feet
BEAM: 90 feet
SAIL AREA: 5,000-square-foot main,
3,500-square-foot jib,
7,000-square-foot gennaker/Code Zero
MAST HEIGHT: 158 feet
DESIGN: BMW Oracle/VPLP (naval architects)
www.bmworacleracing.com (//http://)
(http://www.soundingsonline.com/images/stories/monthly/01_09/boat_works/on_sailboats_01.jpg)
Apparantly only the center daggerboard is a daggerboard. All the others are hydrofoils. That thing is goona haul ass when the only thing touching the water are the the daggerboard and foils.
Quote from: hbliam on July 08, 2009, 02:40:28 PM
What do you find interesting?
~snip~
Yeah, the 'daggerboards' on the outer hulls are *very* curved, with a little tip winglet.
I'd say those boats are huge, but that would be incorrect.
They're F'n gigantic.
Quote from: Jammen on July 08, 2009, 01:26:00 PM
Wow... I so want to go for a ride!
oh yes...yes indeed!
Quote from: Ducaholic on July 08, 2009, 12:52:06 PM
When did they start using multihulls? Or is this the first time?
they got in a big fight in court over it. bmw oracle won and the challenger had no option but to build one similar to compete with the bmw oracle 90...or something like that. I wasn't following the whining very closely, I just like watching the racing.
Kevins boat is faster. ;)
Jebus Dudes, That's the damdest thing I ever saw. How would you figure the hull speed on that thing? Looks like:
Mari-Cha IV 140 ft. (mono hull) good for just over 40 knots
L'Hydroptère the huge Hydrofoil Tri with a jaw-dropping 47+ knot top speed, is the fastest sailing boat in the world -so far.
They're saying 40 knots for this new boat in a 20 knot wind. make the beast with two backsing Wow! Speed freak sailing.
LA
Quote from: LA on July 08, 2009, 05:57:09 PM
Jebus Dudes, That's the damdest thing I ever saw. How would you figure the hull speed on that thing? Looks like:
Mari-Cha IV 140 ft. (mono hull) good for just over 40 knots
L'Hydroptère the huge Hydrofoil Tri with a jaw-dropping 47+ knot top speed, is the fastest sailing boat in the world -so far.
They're saying 40 knots for this new boat in a 20 knot wind. make the beast with two backsing Wow! Speed freak sailing.
LA
I have no idea WTF you just said, but it sounds pretty friggin cool!
Quote from: LA on July 08, 2009, 05:57:09 PM
L'Hydroptère the huge Hydrofoil Tri with a jaw-dropping 47+ knot top speed, is the fastest sailing boat in the world -so far.
L'Hydroptère: fastest sailboat on the planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nljxi4E4-4Y#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
what's up with the dude below deck watching TV??
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on July 08, 2009, 06:56:39 PM
what's up with the dude below deck watching TV??
Possibly watching some type of weater/wind feed?
Statler, calling Statler to the bridge. ;)
What are they made out of?
Fiber glass?
Carbon fiber?
How does a boat manage a faster speed than the wind speed?
Fiberglass?
Maybe a little bit.
Carbon?
Nearly all, if not all of it.
How does a boat manage a faster speed than the wind speed?
Hmmm... trying to think of a relatively short explanation...
Quote from: Monsterlover on July 11, 2009, 06:19:37 AM
How does a boat manage a faster speed than the wind speed?
If I understand correctly, the sails don't actually catch the wind for propulsion, they form an airfoil that uses the wind to generate lift, much like an F1 car generates downforce. So, my guess would be they've come up with some really innovative ways to minimize weight, drag and friction to a point that the aerodynamically generated motive force is such that the boat is insanely fast for the wind speed.
Sailing faster than windspeed isn't a recent thing, it's been possible for many years.
that isn't sailing anymore
it is flying with a tether
all agree that the "boat" is gimake the beast with two backsinggantic
but
at speed what percent of the boat is actually in touch with the water?
7-10 percent?
less?
Quote from: Speeddog on July 11, 2009, 07:26:37 AM
Sailing faster than windspeed isn't a recent thing, it's been possible for many years.
Right, they're just sailing MUCH faster than wind speed now ;D
Quote from: Mother on July 11, 2009, 07:44:43 AM
that isn't sailing anymore
it is flying with a tether
all agree that the "boat" is gimake the beast with two backsinggantic
but
at speed what percent of the boat is actually in touch with the water?
7-10 percent?
less?
I agree
That is probably why they go so fast because they are essentially "floating" on the water with next to no drag
Quote from: Mother on July 11, 2009, 07:44:43 AM
but
at speed what percent of the boat is actually in touch with the water?
7-10 percent?
less?
much less...
here's a pic of the underside of the l'Hydroptère (from when it capsized) that'll give you an idea of the hydrofoil arrangement.:
(http://www.zerogradinord.net/wp-content/gallery/incidenti-e-collisioni/hydropter_211208.jpg)
they may as well ditch the hull and just go parasailing
is the oracle 90 a foiler? I thought it was just a trimaran, big difference.
I don't think the Oracle is a foiler.
Quote from: HobokenHooligan on July 11, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
is the oracle 90 a foiler? I thought it was just a trimaran, big difference.
Quote from: Speeddog on July 12, 2009, 09:54:35 AM
I don't think the Oracle is a foiler.
Looking at that last picture I posted of it, it sure looks like a foiler.
Quote from: hbliam on July 12, 2009, 03:29:24 PM
Looking at that last picture I posted of it, it sure looks like a foiler.
nah, it's just up on one of the outriggers with the rudder in the water:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/BMW_Oracle_BOR90.JPG/800px-BMW_Oracle_BOR90.JPG)
Quote from: derby on July 12, 2009, 03:38:31 PM
nah, it's just up on one of the outriggers with the rudder in the water:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/BMW_Oracle_BOR90.JPG/800px-BMW_Oracle_BOR90.JPG)
Some are calling it a foiler. The fact that it has a foil system would cause me to agree.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090701/SPORTS10/90701008/ (http://www.freep.com/article/20090701/SPORTS10/90701008/)
But BMW-Oracle carries the principle of minimizing wetted surface area to the extreme by using hydrofoils, fins that stick below the surface and can lift the hulls entirely out of the water in stronger winds.
The whole boat flies above the surface, supported by the hydrodynamic lift generated by the water flowing over small wings at the bottoms of the foils ticking down from the three hulls (the same principle makes airplanes fly by passing air over their wings and creating aerodynamic lift.
When the 100-foot BMW-Oracle foiler trimaran is cranked up to speed, the central hull is 10 feet in the air and the crewmen sitting on the windward ama (hull) are about 20 feet above the water, and the whole thing has about as much wetted surface area as a 10-foot dinghy.[b/]
holy crap!
I love technology :)
That is just so cool.
sailing has changed a bit since 1851
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Yacht_America%2C_by_Currier_%26_Ives.jpg)
Have any of you done any serious sailing in a hobie cat? IMAGINE PITCH POLING THE ORACLE 90?? weeeeeeeeee
doubt its possible on that boat though...
Quote from: HobokenHooligan on July 12, 2009, 08:38:59 PM
Have any of you done any serious sailing in a hobie cat? IMAGINE PITCH POLING THE ORACLE 90?? weeeeeeeeee
doubt its possible on that boat though...
Yeah, I flipped a Hobie 16 once or twice. :) Flipping the Oracle would be dangerous as hell.
hobie cats are da bomb.......until you flip one.
even better is screaming along on one hull, hiked all the way out..........and the windward stay parted.
sorry for the absence in this thread. I'll be back to catch up tomorrow. In the mean time...yay Hobie cats. We learned to race on this old H18. That's G on the trapeze (not enough wind to double trap that day). sold the boat for what we paid for her.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/grumpylawyer/hobie18.jpg?t=1247709708)
That looks like fun!
[thumbsup]
curved foils on multihulls proved lift and help keep the leeward hull from pressing deep into the water, but they aren't designed to lift the hull completely out like on Hydroptere.
There's lots of arguments about the definition of a hydrofoil over this... hydroptere is a foil borne boat like a moth. The America's cup boats are not. You will not see them completely out of the water riding on foils.
But the more horizontal the foil the more it's providing lift. Looks like the Swiss cat's foils actually are adjustable for rake. They are a crazy S shape and spy shots are showing large trunks in the hulls set so that the foils can be adjusted.
These are not offshore boats like the 60 foot class of trimaran or G-class catamarans...they are designed for light winds in relatively protected waters.
Hydroptere (an updated one is being built btw) has suspension struts on its front foils...the guy down below at the computer was likely monitoring weather, but mostly boat condition and performance. It has load cells everywhere. They've broken several things on this boat and the previous design.
Apparent wind is an amazing thing. My Corsair is fast enough to where you need to understand it to get the best from the boat. I can do windspeed in many conditions. but she's a little heavy to do better than windspeed in anything but the perfect scenario.
Say you're in a car doing 60. If there's a 60 mph wind from behind you the apparent wind would be 0. If there's a 60 mph wind from in front of you the apparent wind would be 120 on your nose. Apparent wind is what the boat feels versus what a stationary object feels.
If you have 60 mph wind coming from your left side and you are going 60, the boat feels something stronger coming from 45 degrees to your left. The faster you can go the more the vehicle thinks the wind is from the front of you.
So you'll see these boats with tightly sheeted in sails like they are sailing upwind all the time, even though they are sailing on a downwind course...because the boat is fast enough.
So I sail an S course when trying to go downwind.... the fastest point of sail is wind at 90 degrees. But as I accelerate the boat thinks the wind is now 75 degrees or so...so I turn downwind. Same speed now but the actual wind is further behind me. If I started on this point of sail I couldn't be going this fast. The I lose the wind and I slow down...so I turn back up a bit, accelerate, and turn down again...allways playing those acceleration curves. Fast multihulls never sail directly downwind...faster to gybe back and forth like above. Travel further, but using the sails as wings/airfoils pulling instead of just big blanket being pushed.
Many of the mainstream sports articles written right now are not by sailors, so ignore some of the language about hulls out of the water etc. The cat will sail on one hull. The tri will sail on one hull (although Oracle is building another boat which may be a cat). Neither will be truly foil borne unless there's something we haven't seen yet....but true foilers have not been successfull in upwind/downwind courses like this will be.
It's going to be exciting because of the boat speeds, not because of close racing. I bet one boat will walk away from the other depending on weather.
Quote from: HobokenHooligan on July 12, 2009, 08:38:59 PM
Have any of you done any serious sailing in a hobie cat? IMAGINE PITCH POLING THE ORACLE 90?? weeeeeeeeee
I was a "mate" on a Hobie when I was 15 or 16.
we pitch poled it.
make the beast with two backs. That was scary.
pics I got sent to me today from sailworld
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_1022029151_SD40709_2125.jpg)
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_1022029151_SD40709_2122.jpg)
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_1022029151_SD40709_2095.jpg)
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_1022029151_SD40709_2268.jpg)
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_1022029151_SD40709_1945.jpg)
Is that even considered sailing anymore??
Looks to be some futuristic hobby
I'd love to see the captains of these boats duke it out on a lake with MC's and a local racing club.
Be interesting to see who would win.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on July 16, 2009, 07:53:04 AM
Is that even considered sailing anymore??
Looks to be some futuristic hobby
I'd love to see the captains of these boats duke it out on a lake with MC's and a local racing club.
Be interesting to see who would win.
That's like seeing if Rossi could beat the expert class guys at a club track day on a stock R1 versus him racing in the gp class on his racebike. absent a crash or equipment failure it'd be the same result 99 out of 100 times. Different level of proffesional.
defender is in the water and testing. VERY big Court descision tomorrow out of New York so more news tomorrow night.
(http://i32.tinypic.com/2z7ip8l.jpg)
well, if they cant use it, i will take her.
10-14 more days until a court decision:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPuKC1liAAJ6ZtClHM10RjpXropwD99IVL3G1 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPuKC1liAAJ6ZtClHM10RjpXropwD99IVL3G1)
video of the alinghi 5:
Alinghi 5: first sail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rg3hEA9Tk8#ws-lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Quote from: Statler on July 20, 2009, 09:28:11 AM
defender is in the water and testing. VERY big Court descision tomorrow out of New York so more news tomorrow night.
So what's this court thingy about?
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 22, 2009, 05:53:44 PM
So what's this court thingy about?
To determine if training wheels are acceptable in a cup race. [cheeky]
Quote from: Ducaholic on July 22, 2009, 05:58:45 PM
To determine if training wheels are acceptable in a cup race. [cheeky]
Statler wants to race? ???
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 22, 2009, 06:11:34 PM
Statler wants to race? ???
Apparently so. Somebody needs to tell him sailing is not as much fun when its done professionally.
Quote from: Ducaholic on July 22, 2009, 06:29:14 PM
Apparently so. Somebody needs to tell him sailing is not as much fun when its done professionally.
Nothing is-that's why I quit porn.
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 22, 2009, 05:53:44 PM
So what's this court thingy about?
http://www.freep.com/article/20090719/SPORTS10/90719025/1058/N.Y.-court-to-rule-on-rules-for-America-s-Cup-challenge (http://www.freep.com/article/20090719/SPORTS10/90719025/1058/N.Y.-court-to-rule-on-rules-for-America-s-Cup-challenge)
Quote from: derby on July 22, 2009, 06:44:02 PM
http://www.freep.com/article/20090719/SPORTS10/90719025/1058/N.Y.-court-to-rule-on-rules-for-America-s-Cup-challenge (http://www.freep.com/article/20090719/SPORTS10/90719025/1058/N.Y.-court-to-rule-on-rules-for-America-s-Cup-challenge)
Dammit Chris...
I got IZ_ eyed reading that. ;D
That article assumed a 'base of knowledge' in Americas Cup that I don't have. :(
Anybody got the cliff notes version?
Hope the dispute gets resolved in a fair manner.
Sounds like those boats are right on the ragged edge of durability.
~100' ft cat and tri, that's enormous.
I've seen a tri a little less than half that size get built, and it was huge.
Quote from: Speeddog on July 22, 2009, 09:09:52 PM
That article assumed a 'base of knowledge' in Americas Cup that I don't have. :(
Anybody got the cliff notes version?
+1. All I saw was a bunch of whining about changing rules, which apparently one guy makes up?
I'm wondering if Bernie, Max, or the DMG was involved in it?
;D
Seems as long as you had a good pile of cash, it'd be like bringing a gun to a knife-fight if you could make up the rules at the last minute. :P
Quote from: Speeddog on July 22, 2009, 09:21:46 PM
I'm wondering if Bernie, Max, or the DMG was involved in it?
;D
Seems as long as you had a good pile of cash, it'd be like bringing a gun to a knife-fight if you could make up the rules at the last minute. :P
That was the problem.
AC has allways favored the defender, but this was pushing the limits a bit. The current fight was about the defender saying the challenger had to provied them with the registration of their challenger yacht already, which would lock them into that design spec, length, etc. (although they are locked into 90x90 everything else is free game and there are waterline length issues etc.etc.etc.)
The challenger is saying without the rules and venue we cannot provide that, and that the giant trimaran is not USA1 but just test platform for boat to be built once rules are known.
The rule thing is a big one...as defender launched a boat that has hydraulic power for winches and water ballast. These have previously been not allowed. So challenger says they need to know if allowed or not so they can build appropriate boat.
No written ruling, but nobody going to be held in contempt. Looks from verbal ruling at bench that defender allowed to change rules to allow hydraulics, but that they're in deep shit if they then try to disqualify challenger for same thing with last minute rule shenanigans. challenger can give specs for boat whenever they're done so no order to do so now.
The Deed of Gift history for the AC is intersting, but it reads worse than the briefs filed recently, which were pretty free of legaleze.
spoiled children...
they should be made to use lasers sunfish until they learn to play nice.
Quote from: herm on July 23, 2009, 08:00:03 AM
spoiled children...
they should be made to use lasers sunfish until they learn to play nice.
The local lake down here has a very competitive sunfish fleet. Some of my best racing was in a borrowed sunfish. Too bad the laser fleet never caught on. Still have my laser.
Shit like that is why restrictor plates and bracket racing came to be
in the end
competition takes all the fun out of competition
It's called 'one design' racing and it's very popular. Fleets of boats all build the same. First one to the finish line wins and they all start together. Different than the AC, which is now intentionally a design challenge.
fleets of different boats get handicapped and handicapped racing can be fun too. You may beat me on the course, but you may owe me a certain number of seconds per mile, so I may correct out to win.
match racing, like the AC, is most interesting as one design, as the boats are the same. The tactics are different as there's only one other boat to beat so getting them to be penalized and exercising right of way to push them past the proper course come into play. I think in this Americas Cup there will be bigger speed differences between the boats so the racing itself will be exciting only because of the incredible machines....not because of the closeness. (the cup where Stars and Stripes was a cat was not exactly good racing but it was a cool race none the less).
Race should be in February absent Court drama.
Quote from: Statler on July 23, 2009, 09:13:12 AM
Race should be in February absent Court drama.
Where will it be held this year?
Quote from: Statler on July 23, 2009, 09:13:12 AM
It's called 'one design' racing and it's very popular. Fleets of boats all build the same. First one to the finish line wins and they all start together. Different than the AC, which is now intentionally a design challenge.
fleets of different boats get handicapped and handicapped racing can be fun too. You may beat me on the course, but you may owe me a certain number of seconds per mile, so I may correct out to win.
match racing, like the AC, is most interesting as one design, as the boats are the same. The tactics are different as there's only one other boat to beat so getting them to be penalized and exercising right of way to push them past the proper course come into play. I think in this Americas Cup there will be bigger speed differences between the boats so the racing itself will be exciting only because of the incredible machines....not because of the closeness. (the cup where Stars and Stripes was a cat was not exactly good racing but it was a cool race none the less).
Race should be in February absent Court drama.
personally, i find anything other than 1 design to be too alien to be considered a "race." i grew up racing in
this 1 design (http://www.sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=4794) on the coast of maine. note the americas cup pedegree/connection if you're sharp enough.
that and lasers.
cats where fun too, but never raced them.
Quote from: kopfjager on July 23, 2009, 09:21:29 AM
Where will it be held this year?
good question and one the challenger would like to know. Announcement has to come in August (six months prior to match) or this'll go back to Court. Venue must be in Southern Hemisphere or it's going back to Court. Valencia was possible but now it looks like an Arab country possible as defender wants flat water and light winds.
Burgess was involved with J-class boats, yes?
same Burgess?
edit: yup...his dad.
Quote from: herm on July 23, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
personally, i find anything other than 1 design to be too alien to be considered a "race." i grew up racing in this 1 design (http://www.sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=4794) on the coast of maine. note the americas cup pedegree/connection if you're sharp enough.
that and lasers.
cats where fun too, but never raced them.
Almost looks like a mini 12 meter.
There is a pretty big racing MC fleet here in Columbus.
Those guys are really serious about it.
I've done all kinds of boating and I have to say match racing was some of the best fun I've had on the water. If you havn't done it, give it a try.
I used to sort of race butterfly's back when I was a kid.
It was at a local yacht club in southern michigan.
I never really enjoyed it, always thought it was more enjoyable just going out for an afternoon sail
Quote from: Statler on July 23, 2009, 09:13:12 AM
It's called 'one design' racing and it's very popular. Fleets of boats all build the same. First one to the finish line wins and they all start together. Different than the AC, which is now intentionally a design challenge.
fleets of different boats get handicapped and handicapped racing can be fun too. You may beat me on the course, but you may owe me a certain number of seconds per mile, so I may correct out to win.
match racing, like the AC, is most interesting as one design, as the boats are the same. The tactics are different as there's only one other boat to beat so getting them to be penalized and exercising right of way to push them past the proper course come into play. I think in this Americas Cup there will be bigger speed differences between the boats so the racing itself will be exciting only because of the incredible machines....not because of the closeness. (the cup where Stars and Stripes was a cat was not exactly good racing but it was a cool race none the less).
Race should be in February absent Court drama.
So, like F1 compared to Indycar.
Quote from: Statler on July 23, 2009, 09:46:12 AM
Burgess was involved with J-class boats, yes?
same Burgess?
edit: yup...his dad.
actually, both the Enterprise (1930) and the Ranger (1937) where designed by Starling Burgess. the Ranger was built in the shipyard near where i grew up in Maine. in between, he designed the small point 1 design, first built in 1935.
(http://ft10.com/images/lrnew%20bow.jpg)
different bows on the amas of the challenger's trimaran. wave piercing. many smaller racing multihulls (think hobiecat) and a couple giant cruising cats are going this way.
(http://www.lymanmorse.com/includes/showCustom.php?width=450&height=525&filename=_MG_8221_090512_154900.jpg&photoType=boat)
(http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/chicks%20f%2018.jpg)
that second picture looks like WAY too much fun
Those boats are all silly. Ya can't fish off a one of 'em.
yeah, but jaws wouldnt catch you either...
Quote from: herm on July 25, 2009, 05:39:37 AM
yeah, but jaws wouldnt catch you either...
Good point.
Those boats are no good for fishin'
or sharkin'
great shot by one of the guys on sailing anarchy of the different hull shapes. Left is hull of challenger's trimaran. Right is Defender's cat.
(http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=113164)
Quote from: Statler on July 27, 2009, 06:38:23 AM
great shot by one of the guys on sailing anarchy of the different hull shapes. Left is hull of challenger's trimaran. Right is Defender's cat.
(http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=113164)
image requires login to the sa forum...
Quote from: derby on July 27, 2009, 07:09:51 AM
image requires login to the sa forum...
oops...maybe I'll save it on my photobucket account.
in the mean time, the Defender has named a location: Alinghi has announced their chosen venue for the 33rd America's Cup - roughly 30 NM from Iran in Ras-Al-Khaimah.
Expect it to be back in Court soon.
For reference, it's also about 50 miles from Dubai.
Do they typically have much wind there, at least whenever the event is allegedly taking place?
Quote from: Speeddog on August 05, 2009, 10:21:30 AM
For reference, it's also about 50 miles from Dubai.
Do they typically have much wind there, at least whenever the event is allegedly taking place?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamal_(wind) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamal_(wind))
and right now zero infrastructure for the race. Island to be built.
veeeery light wind. defenders want ten knots or less from the scuttlebut and looking at their boat design. These are not the big ocean racing multihulls.
Speaking of which, the Atlantic run from NY to England just got crushed and we saw absolutely zero in the sporting news about it. 24 hour record now tops 900 nm. (20 knots on a sailboat is make the beast with two backsing amazing and these guys averaged more than 37 for 24 hours. faaaaack). Two large tris went for it, staying in the same weather system (which they ride and keep up with). Under 4 days cross the Atlantic by wind alone.
Banque Populaire V Smashes the Transatlantic Record
3 Days 15 Hours, 25 Minutes, 48 Secs at an average speed of 32.94 kts
Top Speed 47.15 kts
24 Hour Record also shattered 907.9 Miles at average speed of 37.8 kts
The "New King" Banque Populaire V, Aug 2, 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqePsbYULg4#ws-lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
wow, that's insane
some cool photos
http://www.alinghi.com/en/multimedia/photos/index.php?categ_vign=617&sous_categ_vign=1051 (http://www.alinghi.com/en/multimedia/photos/index.php?categ_vign=617&sous_categ_vign=1051)
(http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20090731/capt.photo_1249066160809-1-0.jpg?x=236&y=345&q=85&sig=r8t5NfxleDQERnfphenZwA--)
must be rough building a boat on Lake Geneva
mitt
Quote from: Statler on August 06, 2009, 06:48:23 AM
Banque Populaire V Smashes the Transatlantic Record
3 Days 15 Hours, 25 Minutes, 48 Secs at an average speed of 32.94 kts
Top Speed 47.15 kts
24 Hour Record also shattered 907.9 Miles at average speed of 37.8 kts
Amazing. [bow_down] [beer]
(http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_ALINGHI5Cenova_09_cb02200.jpg)
The helo looks like an older Russian one (yikes) . I wonder what the insurance policy was for moving a boat like that?
mitt
:o
That's quite the pic. wow.
(http://multimedia.alinghi.com/multimedia/images/img_traitees/2009/07/Alinghi_Launch_09sg_00802_photo.jpg)
(http://sailmagazine.com/racing/alinghi_water_landing.jpg)
Quote from: cyrus buelton on August 06, 2009, 06:55:04 AM
wow, that's insane
It's freakin' awesome. And a great soundtrack [thumbsup]
Quote from: Airborne on August 21, 2009, 04:26:09 PM
latest update
(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30679082&id=47701118)
edit: well, does anyone know of good free webhosting, everything i've tried sucks... (theres supposed to be a pic here)
photobucket. But apparently they have recently decreased their storage capacity....
:o, I didnt mean to post that pic...I had a good shot of the oracle 90 I'll try and get up soon.
lets try this again
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs169.snc1/6335_518408648228_47701118_30743179_1097385_n.jpg)
Holy cow.
How do they adjust their course?
Quote from: Monsterlover on August 22, 2009, 06:02:25 PM
Holy cow.
How do they adjust their course?
They have rudders on the training wheels.
There's lots more legal drama...but the cool news is confirmation of the worst kept secret for a while...BMWs new hard wingsail...
(http://bmworacleracing.com/images/de/news/00_pr/1108_wingout_g.jpg)
"A wing of this scale has never been built for a race boat. In terms of size, the wing on BOR 90 dwarfs those on modern aircraft. Towering nearly 190 ft (57 m) above the deck, it is 80 percent bigger than a wing on a 747 airplane (102 ft / 31 m)."
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_So4nXyDaWE0/SvdfdCYL08I/AAAAAAAAAFI/mUnud9K-aQ0/s1600-h/091108_wing.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_So4nXyDaWE0/SvdfdCYL08I/AAAAAAAAAFI/mUnud9K-aQ0/s1600-h/091108_wing.jpg)
BMW ORACLE RACING: A Wing Revealed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVZ7g0Qx0YM#normal)
Quote from: Statler on November 09, 2009, 05:02:29 AM
There's lots more legal drama...but the cool news is confirmation of the worst kept secret for a while...BMWs new hard wingsail...
(http://bmworacleracing.com/images/de/news/00_pr/1108_wingout_g.jpg)
"A wing of this scale has never been built for a race boat. In terms of size, the wing on BOR 90 dwarfs those on modern aircraft. Towering nearly 190 ft (57 m) above the deck, it is 80 percent bigger than a wing on a 747 airplane (102 ft / 31 m)."
I can't wait to see this boat. How does a wing sail keep from sailing when you want to stand still? It's not like you can unfurl it or anything.
Face it into the wind
almost 3pm Eastern time. Fox SanDiego has a webcam live on BMW and the new wing. http://www.fox5sandiego.com/kswb-ls-breaking-news,0,1004613.tividlivestream (http://www.fox5sandiego.com/kswb-ls-breaking-news,0,1004613.tividlivestream)
Quote from: Statler on November 10, 2009, 09:53:23 AM
almost 3pm Eastern time. Fox SanDiego has a webcam live on BMW and the new wing. http://www.fox5sandiego.com/kswb-ls-breaking-news,0,1004613.tividlivestream (http://www.fox5sandiego.com/kswb-ls-breaking-news,0,1004613.tividlivestream)
wow.. that thing is a friggin tower!
webcam operator zooms in occassionally for details. Nice stuff and great feed.
Quote from: superjohn on November 09, 2009, 07:08:06 AM
I can't wait to see this boat. How does a wing sail keep from sailing when you want to stand still? It's not like you can unfurl it or anything.
An anchor. :)
Even turning the sail into the wind won't stop a boat with a mast that big. The mast will act as a sail.
any still pics up? Can't see the video.
(http://www.fox5sandiego.com/media/photo/2009-11/50412291.jpg)
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-bor-90-wing,0,7982321.story (http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-bor-90-wing,0,7982321.story)
(http://www.fox5sandiego.com/media/photo/2009-11/23456341817500-10123847.jpg)
Typical BMW owner. Always compensationo for something.
Quote from: MrIncredible on November 10, 2009, 12:15:58 PM
Typical BMW owner. Always compensationo for something.
[laugh]
that thing is f'n unreal. :o
Quote from: MrIncredible on November 10, 2009, 12:15:58 PM
Typical BMW owner. Always compensationo for something.
[laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: MrIncredible on November 10, 2009, 12:15:58 PM
Typical BMW owner. Always compensationo for something.
Is that an engineering term?
So, it appears the boat can raise and lower the wing by itself? In the pictures it looked precarious while it was in the lowered suspended position, like the boat could flip if someone sneezed wrong.
mitt
Pretty sure that boat has a water ballast pumping system, so not as precarious as it looks.
But if the wind comes up partway through the procedure.... all bets are off.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 10, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Pretty sure that boat has a water ballast pumping system, so not as precarious as it looks.
But if the wind comes up partway through the procedure.... all bets are off.
If you look at the pic derby posted at the top of this page, the hull is out of the water :o :
(http://www.fox5sandiego.com/media/photo/2009-11/50412291.jpg)
mitt
Yeah, but the center hull is still pretty far in the water.
It's got a lot of righting moment to spare.
That's still a supremely hairball procedure.
Bad enough with just a mast.
It looks like it might be tied to a mooring on the stbd side there. That'll do.
This just keeps getting more awesome. Cant wait to see how the swiss will counter.
Quote from: Airborne on November 10, 2009, 05:11:32 PM
Cant wait to see how the swiss will counter.
more whining. ;D
BMW ORACLE Racing: An amazing 24hrs. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dySXmkAEy1A&feature=sub#normal)
Reminds me of my (highly experimental) free sailing 'MC40' catamaran. A few friends and I designed a class with a few rules:
Max 40cm long excluding foils and 40cm wide. Max 60cm Mast, and it had to be made of balsa. This is what I came up with. The hulls are interchangeable, and I came up with heaps of other shapes. Foils are removable, as are the sails. I made so many sails, even a double surface wing sail. The thing kept evolving, pretty good fun. It's different again from these pics. Balanced headsail with a batten head, different main (fat head, 7 or so battens, really square) Still hell light and fast.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0002.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0003.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0004.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0007.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0006.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0008.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0009.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0012.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/2004_0528mgw0013.jpg)
very cool project
(http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/ac%20bullshit.jpg)
[laugh]
BMW ORACLE Racing: Munich BMW Technology Workshop Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mapVhW93dNY&feature=player_embedded#normal)
latest round of appelas in Court done. Valencia in February it is.
Trimaran left onboard big container ship from SD.
Going to be sweet.
BMW ORACLE Racing: Making of BOR 90 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8WoFksO9tI&feature=player_embedded#normal)
good vid. getting excited about next month.
We just took part in an America's Cup race in Cabo. It was amazing. The yachts were 2 that were raced in 2003 from New Zealand.
I'll try to get some pictures up soon. It was AWESOME to be the working crew in a race like that!
Quote from: Statler on January 08, 2010, 06:15:31 AM
good vid. getting excited about next month.
Great vid. [thumbsup] Will there be any TV coverage of the race next month?
Quote from: kopfjäger on January 08, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
Great vid. [thumbsup] Will there be any TV coverage of the race next month?
nothing set yet. If anyone finds anything first please post up.
Dave, yeah, there are quite a few ex-cup boats doing daysail "match races" out there. It's a lot of fun and absolutely worth doing.
Nothing like a fast racing monohull dipping the rail....but these monsters this year are going to make them look like dinosaurs.
Found this.
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=64724&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0 (http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=2&Nid=64724&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0)
Quote from: Statler on January 08, 2010, 06:33:50 AM
...but these monsters this year are going to make them look like dinosaurs.
The thing is though, these new ones sacrifice agility for speed. The monohull racers turn on a dime and obviously having more contact surface with the water will create more drag and effect handling. I wonder how that will change the race on a big scale?
the dialup will be different, if there is one.
And if the boats are close in speed (not a sure thing at all) any tacking duels are going to be initiated by USA. The tri tacks much faster than the cat.
tacking and gybing speed is about momentum and pivot points. My tri pivots around its daggerboard and tacks as quickly as a monohull. It slows forward speed down more during the maeuver because it has so much less momentum, but then it accelerates on the new tack faster too. I'll outsail any racing monohull under about 33 feet and cruisers under 45 or so. The USA tri does not use any foils in the main hull, so it's clearly a different animal, but it's been shown to tack quite rapidly. Against even the most nimble mono it would just clear off and there's no way ther mono could use it's maneuverability to its advantage. Hell, that was shown in 1988....Stars and stripes even pointed as high as its competitor but people still say multihulls can't point well to windward. ha.
might as well give the Swiss some air time (boo hiss) check out the view of this beast right at the end.
Alinghi 5 continue l'entrainement à Ras Al Khaimah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm4B5KjCAFQ&feature=related#normal)
This one's actually a little better in terms of seeing her all at once.
Alinghi 5 continues sailing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl8ynMGZJko&NR=1#normal)
no vids of her tacking. That's a big question. USA looked surprisingly quick in San Diego at changing direction and accelerating.
I hope the racing is close and not a blowout. There are more legal issues floating around so even after racing starts on day one it's not all over.
race one tonight (monday morning) at 4am eastern time. no tv. espn360 will stream the feed. My alarm set.
Quote from: Statler on February 07, 2010, 11:02:55 AM
race one tonight (monday morning) at 4am eastern time. no tv. espn360 will stream the feed. My alarm set.
It's a little sad that such an old and distinguished sporting event has zero coverage at all. Not even a tape delay? Versus couldn't even broadcast it?
VS took a bath with the last one. we may see rebroadcast stuff later but no announcements yet. nobody was sure this thing would go on time anyway since the pre-match stuff has been so acrymonious. And now after race one it'll compete with the olympics.
I'll take any coverage I can get from the race.
There are some new pics etc. here.
http://www.sail-world.com/events.cfm?Eid=362&hasFlash=1 (http://www.sail-world.com/events.cfm?Eid=362&hasFlash=1)
Dumb ? - can there be more than 1 challenger?
mitt
Quote from: mitt on February 07, 2010, 01:26:45 PM
Dumb ? - can there be more than 1 challenger?
mitt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup)
If you want to spend hours and hours going through arguments over cup history on a sparsely moderated site.... sailinganarchy is a good place for tons of Cup info.
they will also do some coverage live feed. and one of their guys is over there doing interviews...great tour of the hard wing.
Sailboats are barbaric and outdated.
Quote from: kopfjäger on February 07, 2010, 01:31:36 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup)
I have heard of wiki before [roll] - thanks for the first google search return. A simple yes or no would have been fine, or maybe you don't know? I didn't really want to read more of the history and legality of it, and still don't.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on February 07, 2010, 05:28:08 PM
I have heard of wiki before [roll] - thanks for the first google search return. A simple yes or no would have been fine, or maybe you don't know? I didn't really want to read more of the history and legality of it, and still don't.
mitt
Sorry, I thought you might like to read about it. My bad. Here is a little bit of info.
The America's Cup regatta is a challenge-driven series of match races between two yachts which is governed by the Deed of Gift which was the instrument used to convey the cup to the New York Yacht Club. Any yacht club that meets the requirements specified in the Deed of Gift has the right to challenge the yacht club that holds the Cup. If the challenging yacht club wins the match, the cup's ownership is transferred to that yacht club.
From the third defense of the Cup in 1876 through the twentieth defense in 1967, there was always one challenger and one defender, although the NYYC ran a defender selection series to pick the yacht they would use in the match. Starting in 1970, interest in challenging was so high that the NYYC started allowing multiple challengers to run a selection regatta among themselves with the winner being substituted as Challenger and going on to the actual America's Cup match. From 1983 until 2007, Louis Vuitton sponsored the Louis Vuitton Cup as a prize for the winner of the challenger selection series
Kopf,
You missed a fantastic opportunity to lie to him. :)
Quote from: MrIncredible on February 07, 2010, 05:34:35 PM
Kopf,
You missed a fantastic opportunity to lie to him. :)
:D
Quote from: mitt on February 07, 2010, 05:28:08 PM
I have heard of wiki before [roll] - thanks for the first google search return. A simple yes or no would have been fine, or maybe you don't know? I didn't really want to read more of the history and legality of it, and still don't.
mitt
it's not realy a yes or no type answer. yes there can be yachts racing to see who challenges, but the AC is a match race between two clubs only.
I kind of get why they scrubbed the race yesterday for lack of wind, but when the wind did build a bit, this confused me (from the online Sail World coverage):
Three hours later and the wind had built a little but it was unstable. At the top mark 20 miles closer to the Spanish coast, there were gusts of up to 12 knots from the south west, (around 240-245) but at the same time, the wind over the horizon at the start line was three knots but unfortunately from the north west (335).
That 80-90 degree difference across the course made it very tough for the race committee to run a race.
Wouldn't shifting winds just be a tactical issue for the crews to deal with?
Quote from: triangleforge on February 08, 2010, 06:10:27 AM
Wouldn't shifting winds just be a tactical issue for the crews to deal with?
It would be if it was a real sport [cheeky]
Quote from: Statler on January 08, 2010, 07:27:15 AM
might as well give the Swiss some air time (boo hiss) check out the view of this beast right at the end.
Alinghi 5 continue l'entrainement à Ras Al Khaimah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm4B5KjCAFQ&feature=related#normal)
The Swiss may not win but they'll get to the finish line exactly when they said they will. [laugh]
playing windshifts is tactical, but this is supposed to be a windward leeward course, and if the wind shifts too much it's just a drag race on a reach, versus trying to claw upwind.
There's a 30 degree cutoff on this one where technically the race committee can cancel the race if before reaching the first mark, it shifts that far.
going to be different on this race for the tacticians because of the speeds of the multihulls. In the monohull boats a five degree difference in wind direction was HUGE, but one or two knots more windspeed wasn't...here it's more about finding the wind strength. a couple knots more wind here means a tremendous amount more boat speed.
also can't pin the other guy and block his wind, because the multis can just turn down a bit and accelerate out from under the competitor.
Guess I'll set the alarm again for wednesday morning. The espn360 feed was smooth and reliable btw.
Quote from: kopfjäger on February 07, 2010, 05:31:33 PM
Sorry, I thought you might like to read about it. My bad. Here is a little bit of info.
The America's Cup regatta is a challenge-driven series of match races between two yachts which is governed by the Deed of Gift which was the instrument used to convey the cup to the New York Yacht Club. Any yacht club that meets the requirements specified in the Deed of Gift has the right to challenge the yacht club that holds the Cup. If the challenging yacht club wins the match, the cup's ownership is transferred to that yacht club.
From the third defense of the Cup in 1876 through the twentieth defense in 1967, there was always one challenger and one defender, although the NYYC ran a defender selection series to pick the yacht they would use in the match. Starting in 1970, interest in challenging was so high that the NYYC started allowing multiple challengers to run a selection regatta among themselves with the winner being substituted as Challenger and going on to the actual America's Cup match. From 1983 until 2007, Louis Vuitton sponsored the Louis Vuitton Cup as a prize for the winner of the challenger selection series
thanks
[thumbsup]
mitt
race one was a total blowout. ;D
USA got a great move to make Swiss get a penalty in the prestart, but then got themselves stuck head to wind and couldn't move.
They not only caught up the time lost, but blew the Swiss away downwind too which is where everyone said the Swiss cat would be faster. And this was in winds less than 11 knots which was also supposed to favor the Swiss boat. The hard wing completely and utterly rocked.
Race two on Sunday. Unless something breaks, there won't be a race three.
Do you know if any place on the web is going replay the race?
Quote from: Airborne on February 12, 2010, 04:36:59 PM
Do you know if any place on the web is going replay the race?
http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/livestream/?track.refer=/en/index.html&track.type=home (http://bmworacleracing.com/en/news/livestream/?track.refer=/en/index.html&track.type=home)
espn360 has the whole thing as well....first several hours are just delayed start blathering but you can forward the pointer through it to anywhere.
It is finished, seemingly without much news.
mitt
well, some news:
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=0z&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=america%27s+cup&oq=amer (http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=0z&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=america%27s+cup&oq=amer)